BD standalone results/tests on DVDR of AVCHD, BD, FULLBD, CROPPED, HDAUDIO

[deank]

Originally Posted by Ryu77

I tested Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA on the Panasonic DMPBD35 and DMPBD60 today. They both played (via bitstream) DTS-HD MA from DVD media with no problem. However, Dolby TrueHD kept sticking and audio was screechy (if that's a word) and broken.

You can't get HD audio to work properly via optical/coaxial bitstream mode. There is not enough bandwidth.

The only way to test and get it to work is to use quality HDMI 1.3 cable to your AV.

[turbojet]

I added HDAUDIO column.

When you mean couldn't get hdaudio to work on sony S550 do you mean there was no sound or the disk wouldn't play at all?

Also if you are looking to test things. CROP720, CROP1080, HDAUDIO results would be very interesting. Also FULL-BD could use some work but that would probably be best done in a private setting to avoid getting accused of piracy.

[Ryu77]

Originally Posted by deank

You can't get HD audio to work properly via optical/coaxial bitstream mode. There is not enough bandwidth.

The only way to test and get it to work is to use quality HDMI 1.3 cable to your AV.

I didn't realise that if I didn't state that I was using HDMI that you would assume that I was using optical... ?

I am fully aware of the 1.5 Mbit/s limit that optical/coaxial SPDIF has... I did also post that DTS-HD MA was working on my system so it would be fair to assume that I made my position clear on this matter. Besides, you stated that it wont work properly without HDMI but I would like to clarify that HD audio wont work at all if no HDMI connection is present (or you could use analog multi channel connectors). The lossy core will be bitstreamed instead via optical/coaxial and the Receiver will decode the legacy AC3/DTS track.

I have this Receiver so I would be crazy to spend that sort of money and NOT use HDMI...

http://www.pioneer.com.au/Products/H...rs/SCLX81.aspx

Thank you for making sure though... but it's all good.

Originally Posted by turbojet

When you mean couldn't get hdaudio to work on sony S550 do you mean there was no sound or the disk wouldn't play at all?

The Sony BDP-S550 locked up when attempting to play HD audio on AVCHD format.

The Panasonic DMP-BD35/DMP-BD60 plays DTS-HD MA from AVCHD format with no problem at all. However, with TrueHD the player stutters (audio is all garbled and messed up). Just to confirm that this wasn't a tsMuxeR related bug I authored a small section with Sonic Scenarist and the exact same thing happened so it's definitely the player.

Also, I noticed that in your notes the HD audio column is referring to decoding. I am actually referring to bitstreaming the HD audio which is why I wanted to make the move to a stand alone BD Player. I also have a PS3 but as we all know it can not bitstream HD audio, it can only decode onboard. I am extremely confident that my AV Reciever has superior decoders to my PS3 which is why I am interested in bistream. Even if I select regular Dolby Digital on my PS3 and bitstream it to my Receiver, it sounds BETTER than decoding HD audio onboard my PS3 and sending it as multi channel LPCM. Believe it or not, but that is what my ears tell me... And just to clarify, I sell a lot of high end audio as my full time job.

[deank]

Originally Posted by Ryu77

I didn't realise that if I didn't state that I was using HDMI that you would assume that I was using optical... ?

Thank you for making sure though... but it's all good.

Yeah.. sorry for trying to be helpful. I probably got confused when you said 'bitstream' so I thought of spdif, not HDMI bitstream.

And you didn't say that the sony locks up... I'll leave it to more experienced ones to answer (if this is the correct thread at all).

[Ryu77]

Originally Posted by deank

Yeah.. sorry for trying to be helpful. I probably got confused when you said 'bitstream' so I thought of spdif, not HDMI bitstream.

And you didn't say that the sony locks up... I'll leave it to more experienced ones to answer (if this is the correct thread at all).

I know you were trying to be helpful but I thought it was clear that I am quite concise when it comes to this sort of thing, and I am not some nOOb that rants on about things that I have no idea about... Hehe!

Yes, I know I didn't say the Sony locks up... I was elaborating due to turbojet's request (I did say it won't play HD audio from DVD media).

[turbojet]

Oh I forgot decoding means something a little different with HD recievers. I changed it to playback, is that ok or have any other suggestion?

I split DTS-HD and TRUEHD, do you think DTS-HD and DTS-MA can live together in the same column?

Also can you provide a scenarist authored TrueHD and DTS-MA samples for the test pack?
10 seconds or so is fine, but it should have a picture, colorbars is what I used in most of the samples.

[deank]

@turbojet: Here is an archive (800kb) - 1920x1080p@23.976fps w/ AC3 audio.

It contains 2 folders:

AVCHD_STRICT - contains:

AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV
AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\index.bdmv
AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\MovieObject.bdmv

AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\CLIPINF
AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\CLIPINF\00000.clpi

AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\PLAYLIST
AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\PLAYLIST\00000.mpls

AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\STREAM
AVCHD_STRICT\BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts

AVCHD_AUX - contains:

AVCHD_AUX\BDMV
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\index.bdmv
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\MovieObject.bdmv

AVCHD_AUX\CERTIFICATE
AVCHD_AUX\CERTIFICATE\BACKUP
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\AUXDATA
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BDJO
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\JAR
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\META
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\BDJO

AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\CLIPINF
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\CLIPINF\00000.clpi
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\PLAYLIST
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\PLAYLIST\00000.mpls
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\STREAM
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts

AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\index.bdmv
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\MovieObject.bdmv
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\CLIPINF
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\CLIPINF\00000.clpi
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\PLAYLIST
AVCHD_AUX\BDMV\BACKUP\PLAYLIST\00000.mpls

People can test them, burning their contents to DVD-R.

[turbojet]

Would they fit in one of the current columns?

Also I see TSMuxer changed their AVCHD output again in 1.10.1 they kept CERTIFICATE and AUXDATA folders ugh.

[rack04]

Originally Posted by Ryu77

The Panasonic DMP-BD35/DMP-BD60 plays DTS-HD MA from AVCHD format with no problem at all. However, with TrueHD the player stutters (audio is all garbled and messed up). Just to confirm that this wasn't a tsMuxeR related bug I authored a small section with Sonic Scenarist and the exact same thing happened so it's definitely the player.

Does the TrueHD track that you're testing have the embedded AC3 track?

[deank]

Originally Posted by turbojet

Would they fit in one of the current columns?

Both are in AVCHD format. 1st one is the STRICT one. 2nd one is almost the same, but has these unnecessary folders. I believe they are useful for testing AVCHD on DVD.

Samples probably won't fit any column, because 1st and 3rd don't represent real AVCHD.

Probably you'll have to remove multiAVCHD from AVCHD= legend, because it is not the same as tsMuxeR's AVCHD.

[turbojet]

Originally Posted by deank

Both are in AVCHD format. 1st one is the STRICT one. 2nd one is almost the same, but has these unnecessary folders. I believe they are useful for testing AVCHD on DVD.

Samples probably won't fit any column, because 1st and 3rd don't represent real AVCHD.

Probably you'll have to remove multiAVCHD from AVCHD= legend, because it is not the same as tsMuxeR's AVCHD.

I removed multiavchd from avchd and I made room hopefully for another few columns.

I don't know if adding it would overwhelm the users to check 10 iso's. I don't know if some of them, like NEWBD could be omitted, although AVCHD vs. NEWBD vs. OLDBD was the first intention of this thread. I'd like to see if a player (Denon or Pioneer) that have issue with AVCHD try AVCHD_STRICT and those that have issues with OLDBD try AVCHD_AUX.

Maybe there's somehow the images can be reduced like dtshd+truehd+lpcm on the same iso?
Or maybe crop720+crop1080 on the same iso? problem is some players play crop1080 but not crop720 so far so that might not be good unless an avchd menu was used, which introduces another variable. Any have any ideas?

[deank]

CROP columns are unnecessary if you ask me. They are related to a playlist which would play a small black clip before unsupported resolution - nothing else. The unsupported clip/resolution (ie 1920x800/1280x544) will either play or not at all.

Because tsMuxeR's output is the base for all tests/columns (excluding FULL backup from BD-RB) I can't suggest anything that would keep track of all older tests performed last year.

For me there are 5 outputs:

1) Blu-ray - the one produced by BD-RB (Full Backup), tsMuxeR (new) with (o) Blu-ray output mode, multiAVCHD [Blu-ray for BD-R]
2) AVCHD (strict/real) - produced by multiAVCHD [AVCHD for DVD-R/BD-R] (no extra folders -just these in AVCHD_STRICT sample)
3) AVCHD (real) - produced by multiAVCHD [AVCHD for DVD-R/BD-R] with no [x] Strict AVCHD (with extra folders like these in AVCHD_AUX sample)
4) hybrid AVCHD - tsMuxer (old blu-ray), tsmuxer (new AVCHD), BD-RB "Movie only" - all with CERTIFICATE/AUXDATA
5) hybrid AVCHD - tsMuxer (old blu-ray), tsmuxer (new AVCHD), BD-RB "Movie only" - all without CERTIFICATE/AUXDATA

Dean

[turbojet]

Play or not is what this thread is all about though.

I think it would be pretty interesting to see what players do support it even though I don't crop I see a lot of talk on these forums about not being able to play their cropped encodes and it's fairly new.

Dropping OLDBD would be my first thought but its by far the most tested and I think it's a bit early to ditch it. Then NEWBD would be next even though bluray is still widely known as the mode to use for dvd and bd outside of enthusiasts and it would be nice to see if the output is really even needed outside of the BD35/55 VC-1 issue.

[deank]

I suspect (and I'm almost sure) that the problem with Panasonics and VC-1 video was that they won't play it unless they're tricked to see Blu-ray structure, hence the hex-edits to remove AVCHD parts from index.bdmv. And it works, because all other files (cpi/mpl) are already blu-ray, not avchd.

You're right about CROP720/CROP1080 - there may be players that won't play NC resolutions... and it doesn't depend on tsMuxeR's or multiAVCHD's options to overcome it by using a black-fill (which I think works only for PS3).

I hate your always off-line (invisible) status

[turbojet]

While NEWBD may fix VC-1 on DVD although I haven't seen any reports that it does yet it breaks AVCHD playback on DVD on the same panasonic BD35. I know VC-1 doesn't work on BD30 with AVCHD, NEWBD and OLDBD on DVD.

Surprisingly there's already been a few players that play the NC files. Although there's a lot of room for error on reports like positioning, aspect ratio and artifacts. I used a 16:9 picture with a near perfect circle in the center to hopefully reduce bad reports. I've also seen some reports that PS3 with NC hack is positioned at the top of the screen is that true?

And what was the conclusion with 1280x cropped resolutions on PS3?
1280x528 seems to be the slimmest widely used resolution from looking at reports and some old encodes I did. Which makes sense it's about 2.40:1 and it doesn't get much slimmer then that except the few cinerama films.

[deank]

You can say that PS3 doesn't support non 480/576/720p/1080i/1080p or you can say it supports all.

The problem with NC resolutions is that there is always top-alignment (one black/green bar at the bottom and none at top).

1920x... resolutions play in 1080p/1080i.
1280x >=584 play in 720p
1280x <584 always play in 480p.
720x576i play in 576p
720x <>576i play in 480p

[turbojet]

I would consider that watchable but not how it should be but I have a feeling there will be a lot of reports like that without giving much detail.

[deank]

BTW a simple test you can perform with a full BD-RB or other BDMV source (if it doesn't work in your player and has no JAVA applications) is to convert it to AVHCD-like structure:

1) Use a copy of your original BDMV folder
2) Drag the BDMV folder to multiAVCHD
2x) Set [x] No menu / [x] No welcome screen / [x] Strict AVCHD
3) Let it create [AVCHD for DVD/BD-R]
4) Replace index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv with the original
5) Run goBD against index.bdmv

I may create a small tool that will do all this BD->AVCHD and backwards next days. It will flatten all differences between OLD/NEW/BD/AVCHD/etc and will make testing easier, without the need of re-processing everything again.

[Ryu77]

Originally Posted by rack04

Does the TrueHD track that you're testing have the embedded AC3 track?

Yes, of course. The MLP data is basically the difference of what was removed during the lossy process. So you can't really have the TrueHD track without the embedded AC3 core. Although, it is physically possible to do this, I don't believe that a playable track would result.

If I play that same disc (with a TrueHD track) on my PS3 and select bitstream, the core AC3 track is used (as the PS3 can not bitstream HD audio) and plays perfectly. That same disc also plays perfectly when I opt to decode the TrueHD within the PS3 and send 5.1 LPCM to my receiver.

[turbojet]

Originally Posted by deank

BTW a simple test you can perform with a full BD-RB or other BDMV source (if it doesn't work in your player and has no JAVA applications) is to convert it to AVHCD-like structure:

1) Use a copy of your original BDMV folder
2) Drag the BDMV folder to multiAVCHD
2x) Set [x] No menu / [x] No welcome screen / [x] Strict AVCHD
3) Let it create [AVCHD for DVD/BD-R]
4) Replace index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv with the original
5) Run goBD against index.bdmv

I may create a small tool that will do all this BD->AVCHD and backwards next days. It will flatten all differences between OLD/NEW/BD/AVCHD/etc and will make testing easier, without the need of re-processing everything again.

I'll try it out, maybe this weekend.

I added 6 iso's to the test pack.
avchd_aux
avchd_strict
avchd-dtshd
avchd-truehd
newbd-dtshd
newbd-truehd