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Old 20th August 2014, 23:52   #41  |  Link
r0lZ
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From my code:
Code:
SaveFile "_ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs" $avs utf-8 auto
And, when I open the file in PSPad, it is (correctly) identified as using code page UTF-8. Nothing is saved in ANSI in BD3D2MK3D, because MS ANSI is a nightmare.

I've just relaunched the encode of my little test clip, after having forced UTF-8 again with PSPad, and re-saved the AVS script, and Avisynth has accepted it without problem.

(The only little problem I'm aware of is related to the output of MkvMerge in the command prompt window. At the end of the muxing process, it displays the name of the output file, and if it contains foreign characters, they are replaced by strange symbols. Like in this example: "The file 'test accentué ä ë ï ö ü 3D-SBS 1080p (Rol).mkv' has been opened for writing." But the file is written to disc with the correct file name. Obviously, it's a bug of mkvmerge.exe, that outputs UTF-8 characters to the Windows console, that supports only OEM code pages. But it's only a cosmetic problem, since everything is OK.)

Are you sure you use a correct version of Avisynth? I use v2.58, build Dec 22 2008 [08:46:51].
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Last edited by r0lZ; 21st August 2014 at 00:09.
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Old 21st August 2014, 07:59   #42  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
I have posted the modification to do to the scripts above, and if IanD really wants to encode in row-interlaced, he is free to modify the files manally.
That is the solution I was aiming at: a way to modify BD3D2MKV (or any other similar software) to make it easier to create Half Row Interlaced 3D for my own particular uses, instead of using a whole sequence of independent manual steps. I was not expecting the software to necessarily be changed within itself for everyone: this was just to make my job easier if possible.

The reason for doing this is to test whether it is possible to create a sharper image on a relative's LG passive 3D display than using the usual Half T&B approach, because that does look soft compared to Half SBS, even though theoretically it should not.

This is only a test to see whether a better visual result can be achieved with Half 3D encodes than with the standard methods. I appreciate it then becomes a non-standard method, but if Half 3D mkv is being created anyway, it doesn't matter if the encode method is different.

I have been targeting Half 3D mkv encodes as that is likely to be the format of choice for the relative, especially since the passive 3D can not display full 3D Bluray resolution anyway. I think I have already mentioned that compressibility will be reduced using the row interlaced approach. I acknowledge that the non-standard nature of row interlaced means that it will only work with passive TVs in 2D mode but with 3D glasses, so no adjustment of 3D effect is possible, but I'm willing to accept that if it produces a sharper picture without major artifacts. I also appreciate that this will not be an interlaced format but a standard 2D frame mkv, however the left and right eye views will effectively be fields of their original progressive frames. I apologise if I have confused the issue by mentioning interlaced.

At the end of the day, this will just be a test whether a row interlaced approach can produce a sharper image on a passive display compared to the usual Half T&B approach that is currently being used.

I thank forum members for their interesting suggestions so far and I will test them out when I get an opportunity.

Last edited by IanD; 21st August 2014 at 08:02.
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Old 21st August 2014, 08:16   #43  |  Link
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OK, it's clear. Please post the results of your tests here. Thanks in advance.

BTW, for the interlaced thing, it you use the modification of the script I have suggested above, you will probably end up with interlaced frames, because Avisynth will consider the output video as interlaced due to the Weave() command. To avoid that and produce true progressive frames, you may need to add AssumeFrameBased() right after the Weave() command.
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Old 21st August 2014, 08:53   #44  |  Link
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Strange. I have tested again - same issue.

1. Standard characters in title -> everything ANSI!! Tested with Editor.
_ENCODE.cmd
_ENCODE_3D_MOVIE
_MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt
chaptes_3D.qpfile
chapters_3D_delay.ogm

2. With ß in title
UTF-8:
_ENCODE.cmd
_ENCODE_3D_MOVIE
MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt

But ANSI:
chapters_3D.qpfile, chapters_3D_delay.ogm

Encoding started without error in every case. Maybe the error messages last week came from my editions in scripts or absolute pathes with special characters.

BD3D2MK3D is extracted to the user folder.
Stable Avisynth v2.60 from 13/09/18 has never made problems.

I have a suspicion the cause is the localized Windows version.
I used german Win 7 Ultimate x64 on my Dell XPS.
On another NB is german Win 7 Home Premium x64 - but same issues.
Very strange...

The chapter files must be coded in UTF-8. I changed it manually to UTF-8 to insert german chapter names.

Last edited by frank; 21st August 2014 at 08:59.
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Old 21st August 2014, 09:44   #45  |  Link
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@IanD
Quote:
The reason for doing this is to test whether it is possible to create a sharper image on a relative's LG passive 3D display than using the usual Half T&B approach, because that does look soft compared to Half SBS, even though theoretically it should not.
HTAB is not the cause. You didn't say what player you used.
If it was PowerDVD than you are right, the picture is softer. They stream their HDCP mess trough the whole system, and it needs some time until decoders are selected and the picture is displayed. Furthermore it seams the Half-TAB picture is resized to full size and THEN every second line is selected!
Maybe other players are not better.

Test Stereoscopic Player with HTAB. It is able to output line interlaced 3D from HTAB content to HDMI. You have to setup the player manually. You'll get pictures with full sharpness! I cannot distinguish it from full 3D Frame Packed BD content on my passive display. Every coded screen line is properly displayed. I hope your LG TV operates with the same HDMI 1.4a procedures.
The only thing: Stereoscopic Player uses about 95 % open source (ffmpeg, dshow, MPC-HC...) - and they want money!

Last edited by frank; 21st August 2014 at 09:48.
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Old 21st August 2014, 10:07   #46  |  Link
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Originally Posted by frank View Post
@IanD

Test Stereoscopic Player with HTAB. It is able to output line interlaced 3D from HTAB content to HDMI. You have to setup the player manually. You'll get pictures with full sharpness! I cannot distinguish it from full 3D Frame Packed BD content on my passive display. Every coded screen line is properly displayed. I hope your LG TV operates with the same HDMI 1.4a procedures.
The only thing: Stereoscopic Player uses about 95 % open source (ffmpeg, dshow, MPC-HC...) - and they want money!
Out of curiousity: Has anyone tried the free Bino? Does it provide the same output to HDMI as the Stereoscopic Player?
Sterescopic Player uses Open Source plus the licensed 3D decoder from CoreAVC AFAIK. At least it decodes Pacific Rim correctly ;-)
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Old 21st August 2014, 10:38   #47  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
1. Standard characters in title -> everything ANSI!! Tested with Editor.
As you know, I save all files explicitly in UTF-8. I'm not a specialist in character encoding, but I think UTS-8 uses standard (ANSI?) 8-bit encoding when it's possible. It encodes only the foreign characters with 16 bits (in 2 bytes). (It's the difference with UTF-16, that encodes all characters in 16-bit.) Perhaps your editor tells you that the files saved by BD3D2MK3D use ANSI encoding instead of UTF-8 when there are no foreign characters, because it doesn't find characters encoded in 16-bit.

Anyway, I'm (almost) totally sure that the problem doesn't come from the character encoding. My native language is French, and I have often used accented characters in the movie titles of my encodings, and I have never had any problem.

Of course, let me know if you can reproduce the crash...
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Old 21st August 2014, 16:48   #48  |  Link
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Perhaps your editor tells you that the files saved by BD3D2MK3D use ANSI encoding instead of UTF-8 when there are no foreign characters, because it doesn't find characters encoded in 16-bit.
Maybe, damned Windows
Until now no errors but I don't use foreign characters in the movie path anymore for my tests.

One problem remains: chapter files.
I wrote the word König (king) as a name in chapters_3D-delay.ogm.
After remuxing with _MUX_3D.cmd it shows only "K".
I forced to save the chapters_3D-delay.ogm as UTF-8 with Editor - then after remuxing the name König was right inserted.
I have no clue what Windows does. Something is different in the file header what brings the Windows Editor messed up.
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Old 21st August 2014, 17:11   #49  |  Link
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What editor do you use? Notepad? (Notepad can save in UTF-8, but I think that there is no way to force it to do so.)

For the Chapters file, I must admit that there might be a problem in _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt:
Code:
--chapter-language
und
--chapter-charset
ASCII
--chapters
chapters_3D_delay.ogm
As you can see, the language is undefined. (If you define chapter names in German, you should modify the value here, but I don't know if it matters. Perhaps there is the possibility to include several chapter files in different languages, and if it's the case, the player should select the one in your language.)

But, more important, the character encoding is defined by default as ASCII (because ASCII is enough for the numbers and the colon I use in the default chapter names). Of course, if your file is encoded in UTF-8, the player will probably stop as soon as it encounters a special character. I will change the charset argument to UTF-8, since the chapter files saved by BD3D2MK3D is compatible with the UTF-8 encoding. It will be possible to edit the Chapter file without having to modify the _MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt. Of course, you will have to be sure to save in UTF-8 and not ANSI when there is at least a special character in the file.

I will do a test right now, and if it works, I'll do it in the next version...

[EDIT] OK, test done. I have edited the Chapters file, and for the first time, I saw ANSI as the character encoding in PSPad. However, I have verified my code, and it saves the file in UTF-8 format. That confirms that a file saved in UTF-8 but that does NOT contain special characters is equivalent to ANSI.
For that reason, PSPad has saved my edits in ANSI, and indeed the chapter names were truncated at the first special character encountered. Then I have changed the charset in the mux file to UTF-8 (but without changing the chapter file), and the special characters have been displayed by MPC-HC as Chinese characters (I think.) Normal. ANSI with special chars is not UTF-8. So, I have reloaded the chapter file in PSPad and this time I have forced UTF-8. Now, the chapter names appears as they should in MPC-HC. :-)

I did again a test without special characters in the chapters file but with UTF-8 in the mux file, and everything went fine.

So, I have decided to change the ASCII string in the mux file to UTF-8. That works fine, and I prefer UTF-8, a good and well established standard, over ANSI, that exists in several variants (including "Windows ANSI"). But that means that you MUST use an editor that can force UTF-8 when saving the chapter file. If your editor cannot do that, use PSPad (free).
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Last edited by r0lZ; 22nd August 2014 at 10:18. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd August 2014, 10:06   #50  |  Link
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Ok
I use Windows Editor for such simple work. As I said if you load a file and then use "Save as..." the bottom line shows the format. If it recognizes the source file header as UTF-8 then it saves UTF-8 otherwise you can force it to UTF-8 by selecting the UTF-8 format.
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Old 22nd August 2014, 10:52   #51  |  Link
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Bino - excellent player for BD3D2MK3D output

Posted by Sharc:
Quote:
Has anyone tried the free Bino? Does it provide the same output to HDMI as the Stereoscopic Player?
Wow!!! Thanks for the tip.
I have tested Bino and the interlaced output is the same as Stereoscopic player does. Excellent sharp picture on polarized 3D screen. Now I must say Stereoscopic player includes 98 % open source... not recommended for that money.

I tested Windows version with hTAB via HDMI.
Bino detected the input format as hTAB properly!
The output format must be selected manually.
Bino's picture appears faster than from PowerDVD. Performance is equal to ffmpeg.
Bino can render subpictures.
Releases for Windows, Linux and Mac OS X.
You can select all the formats IanD wished for his LG 3D TV.

But
- Bino cannot decode MVC 3D (Blu-ray 3D)
- Bino cannot decode MVC 3D from mkv (created by MakeMKV). It automatically switches to 2D play.

Bino is Open Source - so we can help to improve it.

Last edited by frank; 22nd August 2014 at 11:01.
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Old 22nd August 2014, 19:50   #52  |  Link
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I don't mean to derail the conversation, but a slight curiosity has come up which I'm hoping r0lZ (or someone else) can clarify for me: when you get the 3D planes extracted for the subtitles, how do you determine exactly which one you should be using to process the subs?

Reason I ask is I just picked up Winter Soldier, and the results I'm getting don't match up with PowerDVD. Basically I opened the playlist (.mpls) with tsMuxer and had a look at what the appropriate track's plane was listed as (track 6, plane 6, both starting from 0), then used that to process. It's fairly close on the first sub (hard to tell for sure since the disc tells PDVD to go 2D when paused), matches on the next few, but sub 5 is obviously further separated when viewed through PDVD. Being the stickler that I am, the resulting output is annoying because it's not identical to what I'm expecting - though it's still perfectly watchable.

Curiously, to me anyway, opening the ssif instead via tsMuxer gives a different 3D plane (plane 0). Using the plane suggested there, however, quite clearly shows up incorrect for one of those early subs.

Of course, that all assumes Cyberlink isn't doing something silly. They could be adding to the depth or multiplying it for all I know, and I've actually got the subs correct. Though the same process seemed to work just fine for The Wolverine, giving matching results, and World War Z looked pretty close if it wasn't the same.

Last edited by Thalyn; 22nd August 2014 at 20:19. Reason: track & plane numbers
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Old 22nd August 2014, 20:36   #53  |  Link
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BD3D2MK3D use the plane listed by tsMuxeR for the processed MPLS, unless that plane doesn't exist, is empty or has a fixed depth. In that cases, it uses the second plane with a defined depth, or the first one if there is only one usable plane.

But the difference can perhaps be related to the way the values from the planes are used. BD3D2MK3D extracts the values of all frames during which the subtitle is shown, except the 3 first and the 3 last frames, and it uses the highest depth value. I omit the first and last frames because sometimes a subtitle appears just before a cut and the values for that shot are not necessarily the best ones to use. Anyway, if the subtitle appears "inside" an object during 1, 2 or 3 frames, the brain has not enough time to realize the problem. For the same reason, the 3 last frames are not taken into account either.

Also, perhaps PowerDVD uses another algorithm to determine the final depth value, such as the average of all depth values.

Honestly, I don't know exactly how to compute the right value, because I haven't found any documentation on that subject. I have tried several slightly different methods, and I've kept the one that gives the best results, at least in my opinion. Of course, if someone can give me the exact method to use, I'll be glad to implement it.
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Old 22nd August 2014, 21:51   #54  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
Posted by Sharc:
Wow!!! Thanks for the tip.
I have tested Bino and the interlaced output is the same as Stereoscopic player does. Excellent sharp picture on polarized 3D screen. Now I must say Stereoscopic player includes 98 % open source... not recommended for that money.

I tested Windows version with hTAB via HDMI.
Bino detected the input format as hTAB properly!
The output format must be selected manually.
Bino's picture appears faster than from PowerDVD. Performance is equal to ffmpeg.
Bino can render subpictures.
Releases for Windows, Linux and Mac OS X.
You can select all the formats IanD wished for his LG 3D TV.

But
- Bino cannot decode MVC 3D (Blu-ray 3D)
- Bino cannot decode MVC 3D from mkv (created by MakeMKV). It automatically switches to 2D play.

Bino is Open Source - so we can help to improve it.
Thanks for trying Bino. I assumed it could be a valid choice for IanD's TV, but I had no opportunity to test it myself.
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Old 22nd August 2014, 22:53   #55  |  Link
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Quote:
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Posted by Sharc:
I have tested Bino and the interlaced output is the same as Stereoscopic player does. Excellent sharp picture on polarized 3D screen.
Thanks for the suggestion of Bino, but if it doesn't decode MVC, then it's not much good to me as I don't have an MVC decoder on my PC: I would have to create the mkv anyway and I already have an excellent player otherwise with MPC/LAV.

Out of curiosity, if Bino doesn't decode MVC, how did you play 3D to test it?

Because the 3D TV is remote, my testing requires a standard mkv I can play back through the TV via USB, hence the greater interest in Half Row Interlaced format rather than PC players like Stereoscopic or Bino.
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Old 22nd August 2014, 23:24   #56  |  Link
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.....Out of curiosity, if Bino doesn't decode MVC, how did you play 3D to test it?...
It accepts various 3D source formats like interleaved, OU, SBS.
MVC sources can be decoded via an avisynth script using DGMVCsource for example.
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Old 23rd August 2014, 07:50   #57  |  Link
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Honestly, I don't know exactly how to compute the right value, because I haven't found any documentation on that subject. I have tried several slightly different methods, and I've kept the one that gives the best results, at least in my opinion. Of course, if someone can give me the exact method to use, I'll be glad to implement it.
Works for me. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything obviously wrong, and I'll take automated-and-possibly-not-but-still-could-be-right-anyway over manually having to split everything myself any day - especially when it comes to movies with hundreds or thousands of lines to sub!

Cheers.
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Old 23rd August 2014, 09:53   #58  |  Link
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I don't have Winter Soldier, but if I can buy it, I'll have a look, especially at subtitle #5 of track #6.

You told me that "sub 5 is obviously further separated when viewed through PDVD". That may mean that PDVD doesn't skip the first and last frames when it computes the depth to use. If the Depth values in the 3D-planes for that frames (skipped by BD3D2MK3D but not by PDVD) are higher than the depth of the other frames, PDVD will use the higher values. Have you noticed if that subtitle appears just after or before a cut, or if the depth of the scene changes abruptly at the very beginning or end of the subtitle? If it's the case, we have the explanation. And we can discuss the interest to skip the first and lest frames if you wish...

Do you know that, as explained in various dialogs of BD3D2MK3D, you can modify manually the depth of an individual subtitle by editing the XML file of the temp_2D XML/PNG subtitle saved by BD3D2MK3D during the conversion of the subtitles to 3D? (It's why that temp directory is not deleted by default.)

I have already modified several depths because they were not perfect, and it's relatively easy. You have to figure out the right depth value and it's not always easy, but to determine approximately the depth of the objects during the display of the subtitle, I play the movie in anaglyph mode, and I try to measure the distance along the X axis between the green and red objects. That's the depth of the object. (You can also save a still frame of the T&B or SBS movie and use a paint program to measure the positions of the objects in their respective views. Of course, in SBS mode, that value must be multiplied by 2.)

Usually, I add a few pixels to the measured depth value (to detach the subtitle from the object), then I convert the XML/PNG to 3D, without specifying the 3D-plane file to force the converter to use the <Depth> tags from the XML. It's tedious to do if a lot of subtitles are badly placed, but it's easy if you need to modify only a few subtitles.

Ideally, I would like to do some kind of interactive editor with options to shift any subtitle along the X, Y and Z (depth) axis. But it's too complicated to do for my programming skills, and I doubt that many peoples need such a tool.
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Old 24th August 2014, 05:39   #59  |  Link
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I don't have Winter Soldier, but if I can buy it, I'll have a look, especially at subtitle #5 of track #6.
It's not that important. More a curiosity than anything else - but it's not a bad movie if you like the comic book adaptations. If you watch the "Agents of SHIELD" series than it could be worth it, since it shows a lot of what season 1 eluded to.

Alternatively I could just upload the subtitles and the corresponding plane somewhere, so you can have a look at it. So much the better if I can find a tool which actually allows me to screenshot PowerDVD for a reference frame (any thoughts?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
You told me that "sub 5 is obviously further separated when viewed through PDVD". That may mean that PDVD doesn't skip the first and last frames when it computes the depth to use. If the Depth values in the 3D-planes for that frames (skipped by BD3D2MK3D but not by PDVD) are higher than the depth of the other frames, PDVD will use the higher values. Have you noticed if that subtitle appears just after or before a cut, or if the depth of the scene changes abruptly at the very beginning or end of the subtitle? If it's the case, we have the explanation. And we can discuss the interest to skip the first and lest frames if you wish...
I'm not 100% with my movie terminology, but the camera angle definitely abruptly changes shortly before (around half a second) subtitle #5 (starting from 1) comes up. I'm guessing that's the type of "cut" you're referring to. I wouldn't put it past PDVD to be taking the laziest possible approach to figuring out the depth, so it may well be that it's only taking the very first depth value for each sub and never looking at it ever again.

If that is the case, perhaps a user-selectable "ignore window" would be the easiest solution? Have it default to the current value, since it seems that is going to work most of the time, but allow the option to use everything for these fringe cases. Or just ignore Cyberlink completely, of course.
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Old 24th August 2014, 07:28   #60  |  Link
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Hum, I don't like the idea to take only the first frame into account. In many cases, the depth value of the first frame is not the highest one, and if we use it blindly, the subtitle may be "inside" an object during a big part of the duration of the subtitle. Imagine, for example, an empty scene with only objects far away from the surface of the screen. The subtitle starts here. Then, a character enters the scene and is largely in front of the screen. The subtitle will be at a completely wrong depth, behind the character. (It's exactly the inverse situation of the case that BD3D2MK3D tries to avoid by skipping the first and last frames.) In my tests, I have often encountered similar cases.

But I agree that an (advanced and somewhat hidden) option to control the number of frames to skip at the beginning and end of the subtitle might be useful. If you set that option to 0, I guess you'll have the same result than PDVD. I will add it in the config file. (You will have to edit it manually, as I don't think I'll add that complex to understand option in the GUI.)

I don't know if it is possible to capture the output of PDVD. I guess it can capture a still image, but I suppose that it will save only the base view. And that the subtitle will not be included. Perhaps you can configure it in anaglyph, and take a screenshot with another program?

[EDIT] I was slightly wrong when I have explained that BD3D2MK3D skips 3 frames at the beginning and end of the subtitle's 3D-plane data. In fact, it skips 5 frames. Not a big difference, as 208 ms is too short for the brain to detect a problem anyway.

Now, I've added the option to change that setting in the config file, but I have modified slightly the logic. The frames to skip are the total number of frames of the subtitle divided by 6, and if that number is greater than the configured maximum margin value, that margin value is used. I had to do that to ensure that the number of remaining frames to take into account is always greater than 0, regardless of the duration of the subtitle and the (possibly high) margin value configured by the user. So, to remove completely the margin, you should set the max margin value to 0, and to skip a sixth f the duration of the subtitle at the beginning and at the end, you should use a very high number of frames, such as 1000. The default value 5 is recommended though.

I will release v0.44 soon...
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