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Old 17th October 2002, 15:41   #1  |  Link
jankster
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Nailing the final file size with CCE

I'm new at CCE but have used Rempeg alot. My only goal is to make movies that auto play. I strip out everything but the movie and 1 ac3 track. If the movie can't fit on 1 DVD-R, then I transcode it. If Rempeg fails, then I split it over 2 DVD-R's. This and speed issues is why I'm learning CCE. I have not seen any quality differences between Rempeg and CCE while playing them side by side on my computer monitor (both compressed to the same data rate, never lower that ~70% of org).

The good thing about Rempeg is it is VERY good at hitting your desired end file size. I like to fill the DVD-R to 4.30GB, that is 99% full. This gives you the highest possible data rate. Here is my procedure for CCE that for 4 tests has come within ~10MB of my desired file size.

1. Demux entire movie to one big m2v and ac3 files.
2. Open m2v with Rempeg. When it finishes scanning the file, write down the avgerage bitrate, let just say its 5250. Close Rempeg.
3. Determine what your final m2v file size needs to be, lets say 400MB for ac3, 100mb for VOB nav packs, and 3800MB for the m2v, for a total 4300MB. If your source m2v is 4500MB then 3800/4500=.844, so take your Remeg data rate (5250 * .844) and you get 4431. This will be used in CCE.
3. Create a DVD2AVI project for CCE. I used "multipass VBR" set to 1-pass. Q=25, min=0, max=9000, AVG=4431. All other settings set to the guide's values. Encode.

Finally, being I'm new at this, I would like your opinions about this procedure. Am I doing it wrong?? Is there a better way to met my goals stated above (that is just a stripped down, auto play movie, full disc).

Thanks ahead for your comments!!
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Old 17th October 2002, 16:31   #2  |  Link
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Everyone has their own way so, whatever works for ya, I say go with it! I won't get into the quality differences because I've been down that road too many times. I also don't really condone butchering the disc up and just keeping the movie. I prefer to produce full backups. That being said, you might want to take a look at the guide on the site titled "Getting the best out of CCE". It is, in my opinion, the only way to use CCE. Using it in any other fashion I feel is just "guessing" at what you're going for both in quality and size. My method may not be perfect but if you follow my DVD-9 to DVD-5 guide for bitrate calculations, I think you'll find you can come pretty damn close! Like I said before though, if you feel more comfortable with your method and it works for you, then stick with it.
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Old 17th October 2002, 17:38   #3  |  Link
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Thanks Trilight,

For some reason I never read "DVD-9 to DVD-5 guide". I just looked through it and I will study it later, a lot of good stuff. It has taken a lot of personal time to get where I'm at with my "hobby" (way too much if you ask my wife). I've been using SpruceUp because it's so easy, but I just got Maestro and I need to find the time to use/understand it. Maybe later I'll do less "butchering".

I understand the quality stuff, I went down the Divx3, Divx5, Xvid path before getting into DVD backup stuff. Everyone has a opinion. I'm next going to try Q=5, other than that I'm using all the standard settings. I will use 3-passes on night jobs. I don't think I'm going take the time to remove "gray areas" in "Getting the best out of CCE". TOO MUCH WORK!

If my file size calc method continues to give me the same results, it is no "guessing". It has been exactly right. I tried using Bitrateview first, but it always gives a different avg value then Rempeg and it is very slow.
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Old 17th October 2002, 17:45   #4  |  Link
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Believe me, I know what you mean about the time it takes. I was fortunate (was I really?? hehe) enough to be unemployed when I first started so I had a LOT of time to read a ton of stuff and do a lot of experimenting.

Anyway, I no longer spend the time it takes to step through the whole movie as is explained in "Getting the best out of CCE". I still go into the advanced section but I work at higher level and don't get so granular. First, of course, I start with however much space I have to use for my video. Needless to say, you can't go over this because that's all the space you've calculated is available for the video. I then work with adjusting my global bitrate settings until I get as high as I can without going over the filesize I want.

I've yet to run across anything that this did not provide me with enough quality level to get everything green. Granted, I always end up with a few "gray bitches" but really they are so few and last for such a short period of time onscreen, it's usually not noticeable at all. I've been very pleased with the results I've had.
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Old 17th October 2002, 20:06   #5  |  Link
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You could give this calculator a shot:

http://www.vanhouwelingen.com/marcvh...cceguesser.zip

Courtesy of Famous Person.

See the related thread:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34521

Works great for me
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Old 18th October 2002, 01:14   #6  |  Link
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wakebrdr:

Glad to hear it works well for you!

jankster:

Give it a try...you have to use the exacts settings it specifies in order for it to be accurate, but I've never once seen a difference between that method and the original DVD! Also, it's currently only accurate with NTSC. I'm working on a PAL-friendly version right now.
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Old 18th October 2002, 05:00   #7  |  Link
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FamousPerson,

I tried it tonight,it came very close to target size. Impressive. Can save lots of time by only using 1 pass transcoding.

Great Job.

How will it handle DVD's that are at high or low data rates? Shouldn't the average data rate be somewhere in the calculation??

I played it back with DVD2AVI, why does it constantly flip progressive/interlaced??

Thanks!!
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Old 18th October 2002, 13:29   #8  |  Link
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Jankster:

The bitrate at which the source was encoded doesn't seem to affect the outcome. Only the # of frames and the complexity of the picture does. And the complexity doesn't vary it by much.

As far as average bitrate, you can't set it in single-pass VBR mode (right?).

As far as flipping between prog/interlced, my guess is that's the way it was in your source.
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Old 18th October 2002, 17:55   #9  |  Link
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Strange results with Dragonfly

FamousPerson,

I've used your (great) calculator for 6 movies now with flawless results. (I've even reduced the cushion to 25 MB to fill up more of the DVD-R)

It's giving some strange results with Dragonfly however. I've tried other bitrate calcs with similar results. Here are the specs:

Frames: 150010
Frame rate: 23.9759
Audio File: 562 (DTS)
Length: 105 Minutes

Version 1.0.0 gives an average of 5002 kps = 4.7 GB (audio+video)
Version 1.0.1 gives an average of 4856 kps = 4.5 GB (audio+video)

(The cushion was left at 100 MB for the 1.0.1 results)

This not the fault of your calculator, I'm just curious why I'm overshooting my 4.37 limit. This is not a high action movie by any means. Anyone else have bitrate problems with this movie? I'll give it another go @ 4666 and post the results.

Thanks for the program.
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Old 18th October 2002, 18:06   #10  |  Link
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wakebrdr:

What was the exact output size (in bytes) of your .m2v file, when you encoded at 4856?

The calc says it should be around 4,005,633,079.

But if your final DVD build, with audio, was 4.5GB, then I calculate you actually got around 4,242,568,695. Is this correct?
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Old 18th October 2002, 18:24   #11  |  Link
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Actually encoded at 4850 kps min / 8000 max q factor 60 > with 100 MB cushion. The resulting .mpv was 4,247,620,272 bytes + 590,089,420 bytes for the .dts file. Strange results eh?

Last edited by wakebrder; 18th October 2002 at 19:26.
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Old 18th October 2002, 19:07   #12  |  Link
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OK, now I see. Yes, strange results indeed. Did you have Quality set to 5?


Last edited by FamousPerson; 18th October 2002 at 19:43.
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Old 18th October 2002, 20:14   #13  |  Link
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FamousPerson,

Yes, quality set to 5. Maybe the original bitrate (unusually high?) DOES have an effect on total output. I'll run it through Bitrate viewer after work and analyze it further. My third encode(@ 4666 min / 8000 max) should be finished by then also.
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Old 18th October 2002, 20:21   #14  |  Link
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Maybe that's just a complicated encode from CCE's POV. I'm pretty sure original bitrate doesn't matter too much (I know, it's surprising). I've re-encoded a few movies that had been encoded down to DIVX and they still inflated back up to the same numbers. Also, I did Panic Room, which is superbit, and it worked great...

Anyway, that's why I called it CCEGuesser!


Thanks for the heads up on "Dragonfly".
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Old 19th October 2002, 03:41   #15  |  Link
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Well, i've been talking to Tyris, the author of ReDVD, about how to calculate the filesize of the .m2v and we came to this solution...
We don't know if this is the optimum, but it might help some people...

Lets say that after substracting the size of all the other elements of the DVD we want to re-author (VOBs,EXTRAS, Audio track, subs, etc), we come to the maximum filesize that our .m2v should be 3,300,000KB...
So, we do the first pass(One-Pass AVG.Bitrate) on CCE with a Q.FACTOR of between 40-60 (it doesn't actually matter, since it's going subtly to be changed at the second pass)...
So, after the first pass we calculate the avg. bitrate that our file should have with this equation (taken by the RobShot-Bach method)
Avg.bitrate = (Desired Filesize*8,192)/Duration in seconds

So in our example let's say that the film is 120min (120*60=7200sec) and we want the filesize to be 3,300,000KB(sa as to have the best quality, given the limited capacity of a DVD-R)
So equation becomes like this:
Avg.Bitrate=(3300000*8,192)/7200=3754,6 or 3755

So you enter this number in the avg.bitrate at CCE and at the end of second pass you'll have the .m2v with the desired filesize...


Pls, ppl, correct me if i'm saying sth wrong here
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Old 19th October 2002, 20:50   #16  |  Link
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It must be this movie. Using the above formula, to reach a desired .mpv size of 3.62 GB, I came up with a average bitrate of 5059 kps. On the 1 pass method, I encoded again with a min bitrate of 3839 kps that produced a 3.62 GB .mpv. Wow! It'll fit!!! Very strange considering the recommended bitrate is 4856 kps. Other average bitrate calculators gave me numbers in the 4900-5050 range. As long as I've become so attached to this movie I might just give it a go using multipass VBR and throw in a CBR encode to boot.. Bitrate viewer shows a average bitrate of 6768 of the original VTS_01_4.VOB if that means anything. If anyone has encoded this movie, I'd like to know what method/bitrate they used. Thanks!
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Old 20th October 2002, 04:21   #17  |  Link
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Looks like there are several ways to determine result file size. I would like to use the easiest and the most accurate. Using the "Jankster Method" (please see the start of this tread) I have done 7 transcodes exactly right on to within 10 MB each time.


SurfDrifter + wakebrder,

Does your method work everytime?? How acurate is it??



FamousPerson,

I tried your CCEGuesser several times. Seems it a hit or a miss. The last time it was off by 196MB. Thats not much, but it is still 4.5% of the disc.
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Old 20th October 2002, 16:22   #18  |  Link
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As for me, it works all the time because i apply the avg.bitrate AFTER the first pass, so CCE has already created a .VAF file and knows about the complex parts of the movie you want to transcode...
Therefore, even at a high action movie after the first pass you'll be able to calculate the filesize correctly...
If you don't want to do math calculations, as I mentioned before,
go to ADVANCED settings in CCE (after the first pass) and raise the Global Bitrate until you see at the right of the screen the desired filesize... I never did that (no actual reason, i just like to do math calculations!), but i believe it works the same way...So maybe it's easier this way, because you don't have to calculate the duration of a film in seconds! Just raise/lower the avg.global bitrate until hitting the desired filesize

@wakebrder : You said you entered the minimum bitrate at 3839
, so maybe the avr.bitrate of the output is sth else...And I think(i'm a little new in encoding) that if you use the same settings in another movie with the same duration, you'll have differnet results...
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Last edited by SurfDrifter; 20th October 2002 at 16:29.
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