Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > MPEG-2 Encoding

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10th February 2010, 15:16   #1  |  Link
mikenadia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 246
Bitrate calculator

I started this thread as a follow-up of KCE posts.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...58#post1369258
with the understanding that there is not secret formula
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...91#post1344291
The idea is to find a conservative envelope for the estimation of "Overhead+ISO" defined in the Videohelp bitrate calculator.
http://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm
They take 117 MB.We could estimate that the overhead is 120 MB for 200 mn movie (sum of all tracks in the DVD) and 100 MB for 100 mn movie leading to "Overhead +ISO"=80 +0.2*length (in mn). I took those numbers at random, for discussion purposes.The idea is not to find an accurate estimate but to avoid oversizing.
mikenadia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2010, 10:30   #2  |  Link
lordsmurf
Registered User
 
lordsmurf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 124
I would suggest liberal estimates, because undershooting by 50-100MB is never as terrible as over-shooting it. I get pretty pissed at some programs, sometimes, when the calculations produce a 4.385GB or 4.4GB output. Grrr....

I'd rather have a 4.2GB or 4.3GB project.
__________________
Back in town.
If you want my advice, then find me at the DigitalFAQ forum. Glad to assist.
lordsmurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2010, 01:15   #3  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
Hi guys,

Dont know if this is useful or not but find link below to a bitrate calculator with VB source written
a few years ago. It does not take into account multiple tracks or subtitles or anything other
than vid length. Can calc file size, Kb/s, time, Predicted size for both MP2 and VOB.
It has not at all be prepared for publication, Still considered work in progress but I've been
using it for a couple of years without felling the need to change anything.
Size 14KB including source and exe.

LINK REMOVED:

New thread on VobCalcBPS v1.1 here:
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???

Last edited by StainlessS; 16th September 2010 at 00:53. Reason: additional
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2010, 01:56   #4  |  Link
mikenadia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 246
@stainless

Nice program. It seems that it gives very similar results than the videohelp bitrate calculator.I assume that your overhead is not duration dependent.
I have (only 1) commercial DVD (2 old B&W movies) with a total duration of 4h 30mn (oversized by 20Mg compared to a 2h 30 mn movie).
that is why I wanted to have a "liberal" estimate of Overhead that is duration dependent and may even depends on other factors (PAL, NTSC or GOP size...).

And I had also a 20 Mg overhead with a specific 2h 30 mn movie. So duration is not the only variable (I am always using AUTOGOP 12 and the average GOP size for that movie did not seems to be very different to a non-oversized DVD of same duration).
The movie was a problematic one
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...75#post1370075
but it was encoded and build with DVD-RB and HC without any error.
Thanks

Last edited by mikenadia; 12th February 2010 at 02:17.
mikenadia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2010, 02:45   #5  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
@Mikenadia

Hi, I think that there is a note in the VB source about overhead factor, I think it's about
2.4% or summick like that. I did a BPS calculator for VCD using actual file sizes produced
for various bitrates in TMPGenc, graphed them all and found the output to be linear.
There is a lower limit of about 260kb/s (memory), below which TMPGenc uses the lower
limit. I just calc based on the observed TMPGenc o/p. For VOBCALC, all I did was
use the overhead for VCD and and calculate the mpeg1 VCD to MPEG2 VOB as a conversion
multiplier. I think I still use the original mpeg 1 observations and just apply multipiers. Anyway,
the program rarely is out by more than eg 1MB. Also, I think in the VB comments, I noted that
I reduced the size of the DVD space by 1 MB for a Menu and another 1 MB just for leeway.
Might be a good idea to alway round UP to the next second just to be sure.
I dont think I've ever had to rerender other than if I entered eg wrong time.
The source is VB6, readable in a text editor if you dont have VB6 (frm file).
Also note, the audio only caters for mpg1 layer 2 and not
any surround sound or anything else like that.
It calculates the size of the elementary vid and audio streams
and adds eg 2.4% overhead (or whatever I observed the overhead to be), same for conversion to vob, just a different
% overhead on the elementary stream size.
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???

Last edited by StainlessS; 13th February 2010 at 10:18. Reason: Mistake
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2010, 02:55   #6  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
PS, dont think PAL/NTSC would be a factor in overhead, however GOP size may be but
if it is, then perhaps not by much. Commercial DVD may have all sorts of stuff added to
a VOB (eg, eg 23 different lots of subtitles or audio, different views (cant remember what
thats called) and other 'stuff'. But, unless you're adding all this 'stuff' then it should not
really be an issue, that's an issue for commerical DVD producers.
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2010, 04:14   #7  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
PS, VOBCALCBPS does not allow for PADDED video streams, ie streams where extra null stuff is
inserted just to make the bitrate more constant. I never pad, so I did not see this a necessary.
Also, output size would vary considerably.

Also, if VOBCALC says minium bit rate is an odd number of KBS, I would round this DOWN to
an even number, TMPGenc actually renders in increments of 2 KBS. (I think)
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???

Last edited by StainlessS; 12th February 2010 at 04:21.
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2010, 19:01   #8  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
Markhams Bitrate calc can be found here, made me happy:

http://www.mmbforums.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=17651
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2010, 01:23   #9  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
mmbForums requires an account to download Markhams Bitrate Calculator
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th February 2010, 11:55   #10  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
Yes, I forgot, because I have an account there anyway. But it is worth it.
(As here in doom9 forums, if you want to speak out, have an account and you can access a bit more...)
Can specify CBR or lower, average and upper bounds for VBR.
Takes still menus, VTS overhead, audio bitrates, extra folder, safety margin into account.
(Audio for one track only though, to accomplish different multiple tracks you will have to specify sum of bitrates there).
Takes number of subpicture tracks, slide sizes and their duration into account.
Almost all of these sizes may be user specified.
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 00:56   #11  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
@ Emulgator

You seem to be the man, would like your take on the
new version of VobCalcBPS v1.1 new link in my first
post in this thread.

EDIT: PS, MMBForums is now off-line, so Markams BitrateCalulator is, where?
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???

Last edited by StainlessS; 16th September 2010 at 05:20.
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 11:07   #12  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
Just found your version 1.1. Many thanks, I will test it !

Yes, mmbforums is "down for longer maintanance", a shame..
If you like to play with Markhams, I will send a PM and a FTP password to you.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."

Last edited by Emulgator; 16th September 2010 at 12:02.
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 12:38   #13  |  Link
StainlessS
HeartlessS Usurer
 
StainlessS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Over the rainbow
Posts: 10,980
@ Emulgator

Thanx very much, looks very comprehensive.
Take also a look at recent post in Avisynth Usage, ColorYUV & Levels Graffer,
incomplete but quite functional, a little bewildering to see how levels actually
works, sometimes. No source included, but will put up when finished.
__________________
I sometimes post sober.
StainlessS@MediaFire ::: AND/OR ::: StainlessS@SendSpace

"Some infinities are bigger than other infinities", but how many of them are infinitely bigger ???
StainlessS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 13:51   #14  |  Link
lordsmurf
Registered User
 
lordsmurf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 124
I'd like to see that, too.
__________________
Back in town.
If you want my advice, then find me at the DigitalFAQ forum. Glad to assist.
lordsmurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 14:18   #15  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
Good to have the choice of either bitrate or filesize preference ! And total duration !
First impressions: Good and useful.
Second impression:
Some parts of the layout, some terms and descriptions led to misunderstanding.
Here some suggestions to improve and extend:

Top block: (Three radiobuttons or tickboxes, may be more later for VCD, BD, whatever...)
I would prefer to first have the choice of "DVD-5" or "DVD-9" or "User Specified Size".
The choice of "DVD-5" or "DVD-9" then triggers the preload of 4453 / 8120 MiB
into "User Specified Size" as is is done already.
This "User specified Size" can then be varied by a slider as you implemented.

BTW:"User Specified Size" (which in 1.1 is called "File Limit")
Right now the binary base "2^20" is specified before the unit and then comes the value.
I would prefer these items to come vice versa,
and to be told that the 2^20 is the base, not the unit, like (Base binary, 1GiB=2^20), (Base decimal, 1k=1000)
The same applies to the other occurrences of bases.
Maybe the "Base 1MiB=2^20Byte" can be omitted ,
in tiny letters or only on hovering, if possible.
Just the unit "MiB" would be sufficient enough to me.

The part: "Total Safety Margin (MiB)"
should be moved to the bottom where all Extras calculations
like safety margins, extra folders AUDIO_TS folder may take place.

Now the block where you can top the other bitrate calcs !

"Video Time" part with the three sliders looks already ok to me.

Maybe you can incorporate Audio bitrate slider here as well
to have this bar modular for my next suggestion:
You may add more VTS later by inserting another similar bar...

This thought can be extended in the following manner:

Think of this section as an modular VTS Bar. Stackable/expandable/scrollable when needed.
Give one video bitrate slider and one audio bitrate slider per Menu VTS_xy_0
and well, up to eight audio bitrate sliders per Movie VTS_xy_1-9 section.

This construction may now accommodate Menu VTS (VTS_xy_0) and Movie VTS (VTS_xy_1-9)
(xy from 01 to 99) !

Menus are just one special kind of VTS.
(1 GiB size max because it is only one UDF 1.02 file VTS.xy_0.VOB
and for file system compatibility reasons a VOB's size
is limited to be equal or smaller than 1 GiB.)
Then there is 0 or 1 menu audio only per menu VTS,
because in menus the user should not have the chance
to make the wrong audio choice and miss vital information.
Menu duration sliders would have to be limited from 0 sec. to max 254 sec.
So there is no need for hours and minute sliders here.
(The values 1s-254s would follow normal bitrate calculations.
Menu Durations 0 and 255 take ca. 240KiB depending on still encoder, I guess.)

The "zeroth" bar, VIDEO_TS I would probably call
"VMG Menu (VIDEO_TS) Video and Audio duration".
Often this is only a black or striped dummy menu still with one GOP duration,
size from 8KiB to 240 KiB, but the most authoring apps
will allow to have a movie with audio here as well, so we better accommodate it.

Now the bar for VTS_01_0 would be for the menu of VTS_01.
This top bar has only one duration slider from 0 to 255 DVD
(the latter meaning infinite on DVD, for BD I will have to dig up),
one video bitrate slider from 0 to 9.8Mbps (DVD) 40Mbps(BD) and one audio bitrate slider from 0 to 640kbps (DVD)

This first menu duration bar is married to the first movie bar, both may form a pair.
I would probably call the lower part "Main Movie (VTS_01) Video and Audio duration".

Here we have the three time sliders (or an input window) as you like,
One(DVD) or two(BD primary and secondary) video bitrate sliders from 0 (2.0) Mbps to 9.8Mbps or ? to 40Mbps (BD)
Multiangle? Hm. No branching: Per-angle 6Mbps CBR with fixed GOP bitlength (DLP)
If seamless branching, encode is partially done in-authoring (Sony DVD-A)... and Scenarist I don't know.
If you like to implement this, it will be a bit more demanding...
Now audio:
1-8 audio bitrate sliders would be nice each from 0 kbps to 1536kbps(DVD) or 6144kbps(?) for BD,
Maybe these can be expanded or pop up to save GUI space
(Or one combined audio bitrate slider? Hard to implement the various bitrate combinations here)

Subpicture ? Up to 32 streams per VTS, but these take small space.
For Menu VTS one could just assume to have one subpic stream for the menu buttons
over menu duration with 3 subpics. Should be safe.

For Movie VTS user should input the number of subpic streams including BOVs.
To input the total number of SPUs might be more exact, but a bit too demanding;-)
No, it is not, just one slider per stream popping up with number of SPUs to input, but user will suffer...

Here for movies one might just make a safe assumption
that every subpic (bmp) may cover the full screen
and there may be one new subpic per maybe ~10 seconds ???

Now the same thing for VTS_02, VTS_03, etc.
Up to VTS_99 are covered by specs...
The following bar pairs may pop up if clicked, expanded or whatever you can implement.

P.S. Forgot special VTS that may contain authoringside-encoded stills
like Slideshows, or like DLP which builds AudioTitle with slides.
These take space as well, audio duration slider and audio bitrate slider has to be there
number of stills has to be input, rough calculation base 220..240KiB per still

At the bottom of the VTS calculation extra space shall be calculated like

One radiobutton per container to preload Muxer Overhead.
Depending on container values like
ES (0%?), VOB (0.5%), PS(?%), TS(?%), AVI(?%), MKV(?%)
can be preloaded into a User definable slider window.
( I did not look into your calculations yet)
Then sliders for Extra folder, AUDIO_TS folder, Safety Margin.
Here user will see how and if it fits.

From here on I would clearly divide into 3 big buttons,
with enough room for mentioning dependencies on the button itself.

The first, left button (mid-size) dedicated to
Total filesize calculation
user-given average video and audio bitrates at given durations, volume sizes and margins.
mentioning dependencies on the button.

The second, mid button (huge size) dedicated to
Global average video bitrate calculation
for all video items together
dependent from given durations, volume sizes and margins
mentioning dependencies on the button.

The third, right button (mid-size) dedicated to
Total Duration calculation from
user-given average video and audio bitrates at given volume sizes and margins.
mentioning dependencies on the button.

The modular design together with your three-side approach
will definitely be an advantage over other concepts
because now the user can move bitrate sliders in different VTS
to see how he can save bits on extras to give these to the main movie
and still fit this onto a given disc.

And as I look what I wrote, I feel it will take tiny sliders, much of your time
and I fear it will be overkill ;-}

Regards, Chris.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."

Last edited by Emulgator; 16th September 2010 at 17:13.
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 14:56   #16  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
I'd like to see that, too.
lordsmurf, do you mean Markhams Bitrate calc or StainlessS's Graffer ?
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 15:06   #17  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
StainlessS, my appreciation for the 2 Graffers !
Finally I can see where my splines jump.
Very useful for a curveman like me, many thanks. Exactly what i needed.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 15:37   #18  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
To get back to the OP.
To get the NAV_PACK overhead of a DVD
one may just demux some DVDs down to the bone using SmartRipper in "Movie" mode.
Set filesplitting to maxfilesize 9000MB to get a concatenated VOB.
Tick "Enable stream processing", tick for all available streams "Demux to extra file".
After ripping compare the now almost empty barebone VOB
(which should now contain only NAV_PACKs) to the total size.

For a recent DLP compilation of mine (duration 1:23:32)
I get a concatenated barebone VOB size of 21.110 KiB.
1 VideoES being 4.166.290KiB, 1 AudioES being 117.602KiB, 0 Subtitle ES,
VTS_01_0_IFO 64KiB.

VOB Mux Overhead = 21.110KiB/(4.166.290+117.602+64)KiB=0.00492 = 0.49%.
Hm. Very slim. Checked in VOBEdit: 10554 NAV_PACKs pure.

Another DVD coming soon.

LOTR Disc1: BareboneVOB: 173.627.392 Bytes / All ES+IFO:
6.208.052.750 Bytes = 0.0279 ~ 2.8 % (?)
This is for a scenarist(?) mux with 1 Video ES, 6 Audio ES and 9 Subtitle ES.
Duration 1:41:18.
Never mind. Checked in VOBEdit: 0x86AudioPacks found.
SmartRipper did not show that one to select. Aha. Buggy.

PGCDemux sees all ES. Without IFO: 6.353.873.324 Bytes
Audio 0x86: 145.865.472 Bytes.
So the SmartRipper Barebone minus the 0x86 audio would give
27.761.920 Bytes for the real NAV_PACKs alone.
VOB Muxer overhead would be 0.00436 ~ 0.43%.

This result is quite comparable to the 0.49% from above.
So if one assumes 0.5% VOB muxing overhead he is close to reality
and with 1% he might be safe.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."

Last edited by Emulgator; 16th September 2010 at 16:53.
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 15:51   #19  |  Link
lordsmurf
Registered User
 
lordsmurf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emulgator View Post
lordsmurf, do you mean Markhams Bitrate calc or StainlessS's Graffer ?
Markhams Bitrate calc
__________________
Back in town.
If you want my advice, then find me at the DigitalFAQ forum. Glad to assist.
lordsmurf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2010, 16:27   #20  |  Link
Emulgator
Big Bit Savings Now !
 
Emulgator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: close to the wall
Posts: 1,531
Here it comes. Check your PM.
__________________
"To bypass shortcuts and find suffering...is called QUALity" (Die toten Augen von Friedrichshain)
"Data reduction ? Yep, Sir. We're that issue working on. Synce invntoin uf lingöage..."
Emulgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 21:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.