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Old 10th March 2022, 18:25   #21  |  Link
lollo2
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Quote:
Hauppauge USB is the way to go
If you choose this way, you must have a VCR with lineTBC or a VCR without lineTBC followed by a Panasonic DMR in passthrough mode.

You also need a Y/C signal path to the card, because its comb filter is mediocre, again by a high end VCR with S-Video output or a Panasonic DMR in passthrough mode.
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Old 10th March 2022, 18:28   #22  |  Link
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Blackmagic Shuttle is line TBC only
I do not think so. It needs a lineTBC correction from either a VCR or a Panasonic DMR passthrough.
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Old 10th March 2022, 18:43   #23  |  Link
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I'm also getting the JVC S-VHS HR-7500+/8000/9000 series (depends on price) and know about the DNR that was tied to the TBC in its memory buffer, but just how bad was the DNR? Does it wipe out a lot of details?
Some video (and image) comparison here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1jpyNRGNGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0FDfvNTEss&t=5s


Some discussion here:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post70663 -> in my case edit=off is better
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...re-%28again%29 -> but in my case edit =off causes higher ghosting at scene change
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Old 10th March 2022, 20:12   #24  |  Link
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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
Some video (and image) comparison here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1jpyNRGNGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0FDfvNTEss&t=5s


Some discussion here:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post70663 -> in my case edit=off is better
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...re-%28again%29 -> but in my case edit =off causes higher ghosting at scene change
These are comparison on the edit mode, not the DNR.

For what I read from your link, The EDIT=ON is like booting a PC in safe mode, where it turns off all post-processing, which is a good thing since
vapoursynth filters will do a far better job

And also how is the line TBC in those Panasonic DMR compares to the one in VCR?
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Old 10th March 2022, 21:47   #25  |  Link
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The N.R. cannot be disabled without turning off the lineTBC. They work as a pair. I never disable the lineTBC, except when I use a DMR as passthrough. There is no sense in capturing without a line correction, so I have no example to show.

Quote:
The EDIT=ON is like booting a PC in safe mode, where it turns off all post-processing
No, only some (minor) of them. Read the provided links. An additional link here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395451-Chroma-mess

Quote:
which is a good thing since vapoursynth filters will do a far better job
It depends. Starting on a higher grainy/noisy source forces to use (for example) a temporal denoiser with a high temporal radius, causing loss of details, while starting from a slightly denoised source is, in my case, often better. It really depends on the source, there is not a general rule. I have experienced both cases, and I always capture twice with edit=on and edit=off.

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And also how is the line TBC in those Panasonic DMR compares to the one in VCR?
Stronger, but my ES-15 has side effect (high Y levels clamp), additional lossy element in the chain. It also has noise reduction that cannot be completely turned off, but much lower than JVC VCR. I only use when tapes are such that the lineTBC correction of the VCR is not strong enough.

Be also aware that tapes in marginal conditions also need a frameTBC, rare today and expensive. Hopefully you'll not be in this case.
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Last edited by lollo2; 10th March 2022 at 21:51.
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Old 11th March 2022, 01:24   #26  |  Link
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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
No, only some (minor) of them. Read the provided links. An additional link here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395451-Chroma-mess
That post was talking about the chroma ghosting introduced by the TBC/DNR combo, not EDIT=ON.

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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
It depends. Starting on a higher grainy/noisy source forces to use (for example) a temporal denoiser with a high temporal radius, causing loss of details, while starting from a slightly denoised source is, in my case, often better. It really depends on the source, there is not a general rule. I have experienced both cases, and I always capture twice with edit=on and edit=off.
DNR from 20+ years ago is not going to beat Neat Video.

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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
Stronger, but my ES-15 has side effect (high Y levels clamp), additional lossy element in the chain. It also has noise reduction that cannot be completely turned off, but much lower than JVC VCR. I only use when tapes are such that the lineTBC correction of the VCR is not strong enough.
So the Panny ES-15 also had problem with DNR not turning off?

Quote:
Be also aware that tapes in marginal conditions also need a frameTBC, rare today and expensive. Hopefully you'll not be in this case.
I have the Videonics Video Mixer MX-1 on my way. It should get the job done.
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Old 11th March 2022, 08:58   #27  |  Link
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That post was talking about the chroma ghosting introduced by the TBC/DNR combo, not EDIT=ON.
If you still think "EDIT=ON is like booting a PC in safe mode, where it turns off all post-processing", I give up.

Quote:
DNR from 20+ years ago is not going to beat Neat Video.
That's not what I compared!

Good luck with your captures!
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Old 11th March 2022, 15:48   #28  |  Link
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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
Stronger, but my ES-15 has side effect (high Y levels clamp), additional lossy element in the chain. It also has noise reduction that cannot be completely turned off, but much lower than JVC VCR. I only use when tapes are such that the lineTBC correction of the VCR is not strong enough.
The PAL version of the ES10/15 allows to completely disable temporal noise filtering.
I agrre, that it hass far too much luma gain, that's why I put a potentiometer between VCR and ES10.
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Old 11th March 2022, 18:24   #29  |  Link
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Here a sample on my hardware. A comparison between a capture from a Panasonic VCR without lineTBC versus the same VCR adding the ES-15 with N.R.=off. I still see some noise reduction. If you say the N.R. can be completely disabled, it could be a low-pass filter effect of the added device on the high frequecies, so a spacial effect more than a temporal effect, I do not know. But the noise reduction is there, at least in my experiments.

https://imgsli.com/OTkyMDk

P.S. I am providing a field analysis only because the original vhs has even field corrupted, and we were trying to fix them with the ES-15, without success.
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Old 11th March 2022, 19:58   #30  |  Link
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Depending where I look the Panny has retained more details (or just introduced artefacts?) or smoothed away details at other parts of the picture. The vertical shift is a bit annoying for the comparison.
If one picture is the top and the other picture is the bottom field the noise comparison would be moot.
Not sure about my conclusion though.

Last edited by Sharc; 12th March 2022 at 11:08.
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Old 12th March 2022, 10:58   #31  |  Link
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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
Here a sample on my hardware. A comparison between a capture from a Panasonic VCR without lineTBC versus the same VCR adding the ES-15 with N.R.=off. I still see some noise reduction. If you say the N.R. can be completely disabled, it could be a low-pass filter effect of the added device on the high frequecies, so a spacial effect more than a temporal effect, I do not know. But the noise reduction is there, at least in my experiments.

https://imgsli.com/OTkyMDk

P.S. I am providing a field analysis only because the original vhs has even field corrupted, and we were trying to fix them with the ES-15, without success.
Why is there a vertical shift?
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Old 12th March 2022, 11:40   #32  |  Link
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Some more reading about the impact of passthrough and its settings etc.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...hat-do-you-use
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Old 12th March 2022, 11:43   #33  |  Link
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Why is there a vertical shift?
Comparing the top with a bottom field? Just guessing.
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Old 12th March 2022, 12:16   #34  |  Link
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I am comparing odd field versus odd field, cannot do at frame level for this capture because the even fields are bad.

The shift is caused by the lineTBC of the ES-15, framing the active area in a different region (1 pixel shift to the right, 1 pixel shift to the top).

Here a comparison where I aligned the 2 captures (YUY2 converted to RGB to be able to cut/add 1 pixel in width):
https://imgsli.com/OTkzNzE

The lineTBC effect is evident in the right boot of the austronaut (and many vertical lines), together with a general noise reduction (the column on the left for example).

EDIT:
A "setting guide" for Panasonic DVD recorder used in passthrough:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...29?mode=hybrid
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Last edited by lollo2; 12th March 2022 at 20:35.
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Old 12th March 2022, 13:26   #35  |  Link
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From what I have read so far, here's what I think happened with the TBC progression:

It all started out in the professional field with those expensive device that can do time base correction and frame synchronizing for broadcast. Eventually it came down to the consumer level where the TBC feature (not the frame synchronizer) was somewhat implemented into VCR, with each brand adding their own sauce into the mix, like noise reduction. Those sauces however, became the headache we have to deal with today. The limited buffer size in the VCR TBC also limited its effectiveness on fixing crappy sources, it was enough for most but not the crappy one.

At about the same time, consumer level digital mixer became available (It was not cheap though). As a part of the package, these mixers came with TBC and frame synchronizing at the same time, where they have enough memory to do a full frame TBC (52x lines) at once compares to 2 lines TBC from VCR. They called it "infinite window TBC".

So, if my assumption is correct, to get a high quality VHS transfer, all we need is a decent VCR that adds no additional digital filters and has a s-video output, a digital mixer and that's it. There is no need for a high end VCR with line TBC or TBC capable DVD recorder as passthrough, which are inferior to infinite window TBC, avoiding all unnecessary pitfalls. And there is no need for those ridiculously expensive so called "external frame TBC" basically just for frame synchronizing.
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Old 12th March 2022, 14:44   #36  |  Link
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Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
They do. Blackmagic cards are not recommended for Analog SD capture, even with a clean input. Many results available on digitalfaq and videohelp forums.
Some model can be used to "dump" the Analog to HDMI (digital) conversion generated by a Panasonic DVD-R recorder used as capture device: another role, another story.

If a high-end device is required, an example is the Ensemble Designs BrightEye 75. Not because its 10bit capture, but because it has internally a quasi line/frameTBC, which avoid the usage of two lossy A/D and D/A conversions inside the VCR or the DVD-R recorder in passthrough mode. But it requires a SDI capture flow. User latreche34/dellsam34 posted some sample on digitalfaq and videohelp forums.
I had dug through that hole last year and people complained without providing evidence. I remember the only comparison I could find used a static test grid. You can't assess the performance of a video apture card without looking at how it manages motion. Also these two sites regularly point out all these professional TBCs will trip over VHS due to the volatility of the signals and timing.

Anyway, BMD devices can provide solid results if you have a full TBC between the VCR and the capture card. (That is, some Sony or Panasonic DVD recorder deck with internal TBC or some dedicated devices providing a the very least a genlock).

Quote:
So, if my assumption is correct, to get a high quality VHS transfer, all we need is a decent VCR that adds no additional digital filters and has a s-video output, a digital mixer and that's it. There is no need for a high end VCR with line TBC or TBC capable DVD recorder as passthrough, which are inferior to infinite window TBC, avoiding all unnecessary pitfalls. And there is no need for those ridiculously expensive so called "external frame TBC" basically just for frame synchronizing.
Also it should be noted that line-TBC (all TBC on VCRs) may not be enough for some captures cards like the BMDs for some tapes. Unless the tape you're saving is an absolute archive treasure, S-VHS VCR + DVD recorder pass-through + lossless / 422 (HQ) ProRes capture card will give you already excellent results.

Last edited by cubicibo; 12th March 2022 at 14:47.
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Old 13th March 2022, 03:28   #37  |  Link
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Also it should be noted that line-TBC (all TBC on VCRs) may not be enough for some captures cards like the BMDs for some tapes. Unless the tape you're saving is an absolute archive treasure, S-VHS VCR + DVD recorder pass-through + lossless / 422 (HQ) ProRes capture card will give you already excellent results.
The digital mixer I just got isn't that much more than a Panasonic ES15, so it's definitely a wiser choice.

I just brought a JVC HR-S4800U for $125, pretty good reasonable price.
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Old 15th March 2022, 23:28   #38  |  Link
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what kind of digital mixer did you got?
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Old 16th March 2022, 00:26   #39  |  Link
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what kind of digital mixer did you got?
Videonics MX-1. This is the video that sold me:
https://youtu.be/HEXLlqJQ7Oc
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Old 29th March 2022, 05:33   #40  |  Link
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Does the Hauppauge USB able to record VHS stereo? I have an anime VHS that stated on the cover to be "mono-stereo-Hi-fi", so I supposed it plays Hi-fi stereo? But Hauppauge was not able to record the stereo properly? I checked the recorded audio in Adobe Audition, the left and right channel are exactly the same.
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