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Old 5th August 2015, 22:57   #741  |  Link
BigPines
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Sorry for the newbie questions. I am still reading through this thread. I plan to read all the posts.

I am editing 3D material sourced from 3D Blu-ray and then re-encoding into MVC. Over the last several years I have done limited experimentation with Avisynth and H264StereoSource.dll to decode the right eye stream and losslessly encode it to a file via x264. I used the resulting file in Adobe Premiere Pro for OS X to perform the editing. I then export from Premiere to Quicktime animation lossless. I then take the exported left and right eye files to Sony Vegas for MVC encoding. Finally, I used Scenarist to create a BD ISO. However, my workflow is cumbersome and I have experienced problems with H264StereoSource.dll. It seems like FRIM may be the answer to all of my problems since it can do both decoding and encoding.

Some questions:

1) I see in the FRIM Import and FRIM Export Read Me file, these Premiere plugins are Windows only. I assume it isn't trivial to compile OS X versions? Probably not since the underlying SDK is Windows. Bummer.
2) Can FRIM Import and FRIM Export be used with MVC from 3D BD? If not, can I convert the separate 3D BD files somehow to trick it into working like the camcorder MVC files?
3) The FRIM Export Read Me says: "last codec option is H.264 MVC-3D. This one is intended for export of native Adobe’s dual-stream 3D format. However, this format is not fully supported yet." What are the current limitations? Will this option work for my purposes?
4) If the above options fail, can I use FRIM Decoder to create a lossless video file that Premiere will accept for editing? Will the following command line result in what I want: FRIMDecode -i::mvc input_base.avc input_dependent.mvc -o \\.\nul output_R.yuv Not sure if that will be lossless or if Premiere can read YUV.
5) After I perform my editing, can I use FRIM Encoder to create MVC that can be burned back to a BD? FRIMEncode -i input_L.yuv input_R.yuv -o::mvc output_combined.h264 -w 1920 -h 1080 -f 23.976 -vbr 28000 40000 -u 1 Will that give me what I want? Not sure Premiere can export yuv or do I need to export to something else and then use Avisynth to convert to yuv?
6) Is there any advantage to using FRIM Source through Avisynth vs just using the standard command line tools?

Looking forward to the advice. Thanks in advance.

Mike

Last edited by BigPines; 6th August 2015 at 01:22.
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Old 6th August 2015, 09:19   #742  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
...
I am editing 3D material sourced from 3D Blu-ray and then re-encoding into MVC. ...

Looking forward to the advice. Thanks in advance.

Mike
Q 1) I see in the FRIM Import and FRIM Export Read Me file, these Premiere plugins are Windows only. I assume it isn't trivial to compile OS X versions? Probably not since the underlying SDK is Windows. Bummer.
Answer: Intel Media libraries are only for Windows (and possibly Linux), and I'm old-fashioned Windows guy , hence yes, it is only for Windows.
There is wider community of developers in Windows environment, and they created many useful tools and plugins also for Adobe Premiere for Windows.
I recommend mainly DebugMode Frameserver which gives an option to export from Premiere to practically ANY encoder (including x264, HCEnc and also FRIM Encoder)
There also exists Avisynth Importer, which allows importing .avs script directly to Premiere timeline – which is great.

Q 2) Can FRIM Import and FRIM Export be used with MVC from 3D BD? If not, can I convert the separate 3D BD files somehow to trick it into working like the camcorder MVC files?
Answer: Yes, it can be used with MVC from 3DBD . Bluray 3D uses the same MVC coding as 3D camcorders. The difference is that BD stores AVC and MVC streams in different .m2ts files (apparently due to backward compatibility with 2D players), while 3D camcorders store both AVC and MVC streams in one .mts file. This can be easily solved with FRIM Import via proper definition in .frim file.

Q 3) The FRIM Export Read Me says: "last codec option is H.264 MVC-3D. This one is intended for export of native Adobe’s dual-stream 3D format. However, this format is not fully supported yet." What are the current limitations? Will this option work for my purposes?
Answer: Last codec option H.264 MVC-3D was intended for so called dual-stream processing in Adobe Premiere. This is not very often used feature of Adobe Premiere, it is supposed to be used for native Stereoscopic processing.
Unfortunately, Adobe SDK documentation is either incomplete, or there is a bug in Premiere, but based on Adobe SDK documentation I didn't succeed to implement it .

However, there is no need to go this direction. I use the process for 3D rendering in 3D Above-Below format described in FRIMPremiere_readme.pdf.
Principle is:
1. edit your footage in Premiere in 2D (using only AVC stream, directly processed in Premiere CS6/CC)
2. once editing is completed, convert it via process described in FRIMPremiere_readme.pdf to 3D
3. render final 3D output using FRIM Export.
(FRIM Import is not suitable for editing itself, but is suitable for linear, unidirectional rendering)
For the first look it might seem complicated, but believe me, when you get understood it, it takes only few minutes to prepare you Premiere project for rendering to 3D MVC output.
I use this process for all my personal 3D videos.

Q 4) If the above options fail, can I use FRIM Decoder to create a lossless video file that Premiere will accept for editing? Will the following command line result in what I want: FRIMDecode -i::mvc input_base.avc input_dependent.mvc -o \\.\nul output_R.yuv Not sure if that will be lossless or if Premiere can read YUV.
Answer: Yes, you would need to convert yuv-output from FRIM Decoder to uncompressed .avi or .mov (e.g. using ffmpeg) and then use it in Premiere.
However, it is heavy and impractical! Uncompressed files occupy enormous disk-space and cannot be played back in real time!
Therefore I designed FRIM Import for direct import into Premiere.

Q 5) After I perform my editing, can I use FRIM Encoder to create MVC that can be burned back to a BD? FRIMEncode -i input_L.yuv input_R.yuv -o::mvc output_combined.h264 -w 1920 -h 1080 -f 23.976 -vbr 28000 40000 -u 1 Will that give me what I want? Not sure Premiere can export yuv or do I need to export to something else and then use Avisynth to convert to yuv?
Answer: Yes, FRIM Encoder will produce 3D AVC+MVC output for multiplexing (using tsMuxer) and then burning to BD3D. Just experiment and set proper parameters for encoding to get output for tsMuxer or any other BD3D authoring SW.

Premiere will probably output only uncompressed avi/mov (pay attention, you need to have YUV 420 output), which need to be stripped to planar yuv (again, FFMPEG can do this job)
But again, to avoid huge uncompressed yuv files, you can use FRIM Export directly from Premiere (in Windows).

Q 6) Is there any advantage to using FRIM Source through Avisynth vs just using the standard command line tools?
Answer: Avisynth gives you options for further post-processing/filtering, but decoding itself using FRM Decode and FRIM Source are identical.

FRIM Source and FRIM Import and FRIM Decode use the SAME internal decoding engine, thus they provide identical output to Avisynth and Adobe Premiere and planar yuv-files (respectively).
Similarly, FRIM Export and FRIM Encode use the SAME internal encoding engine, thus they provide identical output from Adobe Premiere and yuv-planar files (respectively).

Last edited by videofan3d; 6th August 2015 at 18:44.
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Old 6th August 2015, 18:43   #743  |  Link
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videofan3d, Thank you for your detailed response...and thank you for creating these tools for all of us to use free of charge! They sound like they may be the perfect solution for me.

I myself am primarily a Windows developer so I understand all that you say about that. I prefer the Mac so I always try to find a native solution first. In this case, it looks like I will be setting up a virtual machine and installing CS6 so I can use your Premier plugins. I have several other people working with me editing in Premiere on Mac. I think it should be trivial to open a Premiere Mac project file in Premiere Windows so it shouldn't be a problem. Also, thank you for recommending those other handy plug-ins. I will definitely look into them.

Quote:
Yes, it [FRIM Import] can be used with MVC from 3DBD . Bluray 3D uses the same MVC coding as 3D camcorders. The difference is that BD stores AVC and MVC streams in different .m2ts files (apparently due to backward compatibility with 2D players), while 3D camcorders store both AVC and MVC streams in one .mts file. This can be easily solved with FRIM Import via proper definition in .frim file.
Got it. So I would need a .frim file like the following?

[Video]
codec=mvc
layout=L
container=TS
filename=01037.m2ts
filename_dep=01038.m2ts

[Audio]
container=TS
filename=01037.m2ts
endian=big

Do I need to place this .frim file in any particular directory?

I am still a little confused though. I do not want to export TAB or SBS 3D. I want to export my edited footage in MVC. Can FRIM Export do that or do I need to use FRIM Encoder?

Last edited by BigPines; 6th August 2015 at 19:24.
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Old 7th August 2015, 02:13   #744  |  Link
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Please, i'm encode parameter:
Code:
FRIMEncode -i 01_movie_L_eye.avi 01_movie_R_eye.avi -o::mvc OutputEncodedBase.avc OutputEncodedDependent.mvc -viewoutput -w 1920 -h 1080 -f 23.976 -u 4 -cpbsize 3570 -vbr 30000 40000 -profile high -level 4.1 -gop 24 4 0 O -EndOfSequence off
and when I import for Scenarist BD appears this error:
Code:
Error : ERROR: The MVC scalable nesting SEI message(offset_metadata) is not contain first view component in decoding order of GOP. AU No = 0
C:\Users\jmsma\Downloads\FRIM_x64_version_1.25\x64\OutputEncodedDependent.mvc
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Old 7th August 2015, 08:10   #745  |  Link
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@jmsmarcelo

In mui-generator, when importing mvc file, remove the checkbox: Enable Spec check mode.

Last edited by sef; 7th August 2015 at 08:12.
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Old 7th August 2015, 11:04   #746  |  Link
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Thanks @sef
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Old 7th August 2015, 11:53   #747  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
Got it. So I would need a .frim file like the following?
...
Do I need to place this .frim file in any particular directory?

I am still a little confused though. I do not want to export TAB or SBS 3D. I want to export my edited footage in MVC. Can FRIM Export do that or do I need to use FRIM Encoder?
Ad A: So I would need a .frim file like the following? Do I need to place this .frim file in any particular directory?
Answer: .frim file is kind of mapping side-car file. You will need two of them:

whatevername_L.frim

[Video]
codec=mvc
layout=L
container=TS
filename=01037.m2ts
filename_dep=01038.m2ts

[Audio]
; leave it empty for .m2ts from 3D-bluray


And also

whatever_R.frim

[Video]
codec=mvc
layout=R
container=TS
filename=01037.m2ts
filename_dep=01038.m2ts

[Audio]
; leave it empty for .m2ts from 3D-bluray


They should be located in the same directory as 01037.m2ts and 01038.m2ts.

Check the sample project FRIM_Premiere_samples_1.23.zip, this will give you hints.

Comment for audio: FRIM Import can read only LPCM audio track, which is very rare on Blu-ray. Audio encoded using in any other codec need to be processed separately.
Anyway, audio on regular Blu-ray disk is encoded usually in DTS or even DTSHD-MA, which will be a bit challenge for you in any case. I doubt that Premiere can read DTS audio.
So you will need to process audio somehow separately.

I such case I would go in the following way (principle):
1. Import and edit project in Premiere in 2D and process (somehow) audio
2. Export audio into WAV
3. Use 3D rendering for video only as described in FRIMPremiere_readme.pdf page 7.
4. Import 3D AVC and MVC streams and audio from point 2. into your BD3D authoring application (I’m using free tsMuxer) and create BD3D ISO.


Ad B: I am still a little confused though. I do not want to export TAB or SBS 3D. I want to export my edited footage in MVC. Can FRIM Export do that or do I need to use FRIM Encoder?
Answer: no worry . TAB format is used ONLY internally during rendering as described in FRIMPremiere_readme.pdf and FRIM_Premiere_samples_1.23.zip.
Final rendered output are regular h.264 AVC+MVC stream which can be authored in BD3D.ISO and burned and played on BD3D players.
(I play the result mostly with BD-3D capable mediaplayers, and tested burned BD also on Samsung BD-3D player).


Comment: I’m not sure if Windows emulation on Mac will be suitable/usable. I have no experience with Mac, not at all.
3D MVC encoding is very heavy process. Really heavy.
FRIM is based on Intel Media SDK, and all core decoding/encoding is in Intel libraries libmfxsw64.dll or libmfxhw64.dll.
Library libmfxsw64.dll is pure software-based, running on every Windows 7 and 8.x machine. And is slow when encoding.
Library libmfxhw64.dll is HW accelerated but is supported only on Intel i5 and i7 CPU/GPU. Beside it is much faster, it supports also some advanced encoding methods (like Look Ahead).
If you will run emulation on Mac, probably you will be able to use only sw-based method. And Windows emulation itself will also cost some (maybe significant) CPU power, and may reveal some incompatibilities (need to be tested)…
(Just to let you know this impact)
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Old 7th August 2015, 16:01   #748  |  Link
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Thanks again videofan3d! I am really excited now. I am getting my virtual machine set up and will let you know how it works for me. I don't expect any problems using a virtual machine. I do lots of conversion/encoding on a VM. I have Sony Vegas on a VM and although the MVC export is slow, it works a treat. I am running a quad core i7 so that helps.

I also have the audio all worked out. I edit each channel as a separate wav in Premiere and eventually encode into DTS-MA.

Thanks for the tips on the .frim files. I saw in one place it said I needed two files but since each file accepted both left and right eye views, I was confused.

Where can I get the FRIM_Premiere_samples_1.23.zip? I don't see it on the first post. The package includes a Pattern_3D-TAB.prproj file. Is that the same thing?

Mike
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Old 7th August 2015, 18:04   #749  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
Where can I get the FRIM_Premiere_samples_1.23.zip?
Mike
See line in the first post:
2014-03-22: FRIM version 1.23 - Premiere - example of Adobe Premiere project
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Old 7th August 2015, 21:38   #750  |  Link
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Wow! I have no idea how I missed that. Thanks, checking it out now.

Is there any way to deal with seamless branching 3D discs? In this case, there would be at least two left eye files and two right eye files. Is there a way to configure the .frim files to make FRIM Import work? Would we need to re-encode these types of discs?

Mike

Last edited by BigPines; 7th August 2015 at 21:49.
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Old 8th August 2015, 06:51   #751  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
Is there any way to deal with seamless branching 3D discs? Mike
Try this several times mentioned tsMuxer (probably the only freely available muxer supporting also MVC elementary stream)
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Old 12th August 2015, 01:22   #752  |  Link
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Can FRIM Export be used with Adobe Media Encoder. I'd like to queue a couple movies up and just let them export one after another. However, when I try to do this, I get a message box with a progress bar that says Export Media - Preparing data for export and it seems like it is hung. Premiere is using 80+ % of the processing power so maybe I just need to be patient?

EDIT: Yep, I decided to try a small 1 min clip and it sent it to Media Encoder so I guess I just need to be patient for a full film.

Now I just have to figure out the encoder options...I'm starting with:

-vbr 28000 40000 -u 1 -level 4.1

Last edited by BigPines; 12th August 2015 at 02:09.
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Old 12th August 2015, 16:35   #753  |  Link
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I was able to successfully export a 5 min clip using these Premiere tools and it looked great! I do have some questions I would like answers to:

The encoder didn't seem to follow my bitrate or level flags. I flagged the level as 4.1 and it came out as 4, I flagged the bitrate as 28 and the average bitrate came out as 20.9 and I flagged the max bitrate as 40 and it came out as 35.5. Any ideas on this?

5 mins of video took 2 hours to encode. Ouch! I read it was slow but that was much slower than I had expected. Still for the level of quality I got out of it, I figure it is worth it. Using a virtual machine likely had an impact here. I would be curious to hear what others' encode times are for comparison. I may have to set up a dedicated PC for encoding.

After success with my 5 min clip I decided to try a full length film with a length of 1 hour and 45 mins. It never seemed to start encoding. After sitting there for several hours, it crashed the VM. Again, I may have to go to a dedicated hardware encoder or split the export out into smaller chunks and then combine them with tsMuxeR. Has anyone had success doing anything like that?

When attempting to encode the full length film, I received a message that 2.3 TB of storage was necessary to perform the encode. I assume the encoder works by writing temp files and processing them. Is this storage necessary on the scratch disk or in the same directory the project is in?

What does FRIM stand for?

One last thing...thank you very much videofan3d! These are some of the coolest tools I have ever seen on doom9. I am in your debt.

Last edited by BigPines; 12th August 2015 at 20:57.
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Old 13th August 2015, 08:27   #754  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
I was able to successfully export a 5 min clip using these Premiere tools and it looked great! I do have some questions I would like answers to:
...
Re bitrate:
I also noticed that Intel Media core sometimes lower the bitrate, probably it realizes that source video has less details (aka lower real bitrate) and thus it is not needed to encode in the requested 28 Mbit/s.
(Flagging the levels has only informative meaning to comply with MPEG norm, but has no impact on actual encoding)

Re Encoding time:
I myself encoded maximum 20 minutes of my own movies, and it also took several hours.

Specifically, on my i7 Haswell I obtained e.g. 10 minutes of 3D MVC output in ~3 hours
It is long, but let's look realistically, what is happening:
1. decoding 3D-MVC input into planar YUV 420
2. conversion of each frame (3D thus 2x) from planar YUV 420 to pixel-based YUV or RGB (using internal Premiere routines to assure compatibility)
3. processing internally in Premiere, including e.g. color correction and sharpening, which I always use in my case
4. conversion of each final frame (3D thus 2x) from pixel-based YUV or RGB to planar YUV 420 (using internal Premiere routines to assure compatibility)
5. encoding planar YUV to output 3D MVC

Steps 2-4 are internal in Premiere and apparently represent big overhead.
Some independent measurement shows that step 1 itself is faster than real-time, and step 5 itself is almost real-time on i7.
So most of processing are in complexity of API and internal Premiere processing.

Yes, it is long, but taking the situation that we are working on final render, we can let it run over the night.

Still remember, Intel Media is the only freely available 3D MVC encoding engine, and produces really good quality (even when projected on 80' screen - this surprises me the most)

re Message "2.3 TB of storage was necessary "
This is misleading info from Premiere (calculated from uncompressed size of processed video), nevertheless, system doesn't need any extra temporary disk-space, all MVC-decoding and MVC-encoding is performed on-the-fly in memory. This was the reason to develop FRIM Import and FRIM Export: to avoid huge uncompressed files.
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Old 13th August 2015, 15:00   #755  |  Link
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Thanks for your responses. Yes, there definitely is a lot going on. Given the fact that no other software that I am aware of can decode MVC, modify it in complex ways per the edits on the fly and then re-encode it beautifully all without having multiple generational loss or involving huge lossless files, I think it is worth it. It sounds like my VM running on my quad-core i7 isn't doing too bad. BTW, I started the full-length film encode again yesterday morning. This time it didn't crash. It has been running for 25 hours and the progress bar says it is at 42%.

Since all this is being done in memory, would it speed things up to give the VM more memory?

Of interest, I went to Intel's site to download the SDK. Since I'm a software developer, I figured you never know when I may need something like this. I was surprised to find an OS X / Android version in the download area! I snagged it but it needs 10.9 to run and I am on 10.8 so I can't look at what it has in it yet. I hope the MVC functionality is in there for OS X but the installer for OS X was much smaller than the one for Windows so I'm not sure. Who knows, maybe an OS X native solution is possible after all.

I will report back on my experience with a full-length feature of an hour and 45 minutes once the encoding is finished. I will be doing several of these in the coming weeks so I am going to give this thing a good work-out.
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Old 14th August 2015, 11:13   #756  |  Link
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Hi,
I am trying to mux some MVC-coded Video files with Scenarist BD. Encoding was done with FRIMEncode. In Mui Generator I disabled the Checkbox and now I can add the files succesfully to Scenarist. But every time I try to Mux I get this error:

[MUX] Can not write MUX file(s) : Error creating OMF files. Please retry.

This only happens after adding the MVC files from FRIMEncoder.

Any idea what is wrong with the files??

Thanks!!
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Old 14th August 2015, 22:26   #757  |  Link
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I'm not sure what the root issue is but unless you need complex menus or something, I suggest you use tsMuxeR to make your BD ISOs. I used to use Scenarist so I know it is complicated and finicky about what files it will accept. tsMuxeR has taken all that hassle out of my life and saved me tons of time. You should look into it if you just need a simple BD image. Someone else may have more info on your actual problem.
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Old 15th August 2015, 07:14   #758  |  Link
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Happy to report that nearly 64 hours after I started the encode, it finally finished. Wow, that took a long time. The film looks amazing though so I am happy. The export didn't follow my bitrate flags again but I am going to try another film soon and see if that issue seems to be source dependent.
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Old 15th August 2015, 09:36   #759  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
I'm not sure what the root issue is but unless you need complex menus or something, I suggest you use tsMuxeR to make your BD ISOs. I used to use Scenarist so I know it is complicated and finicky about what files it will accept. tsMuxeR has taken all that hassle out of my life and saved me tons of time. You should look into it if you just need a simple BD image. Someone else may have more info on your actual problem.
Thanks for your answer!
It does in deed work when using tsmuxer. The problem is that I do need some menus. For example I like having the option choose between 2D and 3D output via menu. The menus I created with Scenarist are working and muxing flawlessly. The error only shows after adding the MVC files.
Perhaps anyone else has any clue why this error happens??
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Old 15th August 2015, 11:11   #760  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
Happy to report that nearly 64 hours after I started the encode, it finally finished. Wow, that took a long time. The film looks amazing though so I am happy. ...

May I ask what you are doing with original BD-3D that you need to process them via Premiere?
If you are doing some visual edits, then clear - Adobe Premiere is professional-grade video editing SW.
But if you want it only recode (from whatever reason), then you can use much faster method: Avisynth + FRIM Source for decoding and FRIM Encode for encoding.
Output quality will be identical (FRIM Export and FRIM Encode use identical encoding engine) but output result will be achieved much faster avoiding all Premiere overheads.

Btw, you are probably the first user here who used FRIM Import + FRIM Export
Definitely the first one who did such extensive work and reported back - thanks.

Last edited by videofan3d; 15th August 2015 at 12:50.
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