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Old 2nd October 2022, 11:03   #101  |  Link
r0lZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
Now BD3D2MK3D sometimes detects the "forced" subs correctly and marks them correctly in the stream selection, sometimes it does not. How come?
AFAIK, there is no "forced" flag in a 3DBD. BD3D2MK3D has been made to process only 3DBD. The possibility to process also MakeMKV files has been added later, but without full support for all features present in MKV files. (BTW, retrieving the forced and default flags from the MKV to automatically tick the corresponding options in tab 2 is on my todo list, but I don't think I'll implement that soon. Sorry.)

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Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
MakeMKV doesn’t show (or save) any 3D-Plane info.
As von Suppé wrote, when the 3D-Plane info is missing, it's usually because there are no 3D-Planes in the badly authored 3DBD. It's very often the case with Asian or Russian BDs. There is nothing MakeMKV or BD3D2MK3D can do.

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How can I easily determine on which plane they should go? And possibly store that info in my original MKV file for later conversions?
Again, von Suppé is right. If there are really correctly made 3D-Planes in the MVC stream and only the assignments of the subtitle streams to the correct 3D-Planes are missing, you can try to do the job manually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
How would I do that? Process the file using "plane 0" until just before it starts encoding? And then do what
Basically, yes. Just let BD3D2MK3D do its work. When it's finished, have a look at the 3D-Planes.log. You should see something similar to this:
Code:
[...]
Plane #00 :
Minimum depth : 5
Maximum depth : 5
Average depth : 5
First frame with a defined depth : 0
Last frame with a defined depth : 141767
Number of frames with undefined depth : 0
Identical planes : None
Warning: This plane has a fixed depth of 5

Plane #01 :
Minimum depth : 0
Maximum depth : 5
Average depth : 5
First frame with a defined depth : 0
Last frame with a defined depth : 87064
Number of frames with undefined depth : 54703
Identical planes : None

Empty 3D-Plane #02 removed
Empty 3D-Plane #03 removed
[...]
This is a good example of really bad 3D-Planes. As you can see, all values of plane 0 are identical. Therefore, it's a "flat 3D-Plane", with just a fixed depth that will detach all subtitles from the surface of the screen. Not very interesting, but better than absolutely nothing.

Plane 1 is not better, as obviously it has also a fixed depth of 5, but also a large number of undefined values (that, when they correspond to a specific subtitle, BD3D2KM3D will consider as being 0, "on the surface of the screen").

Obviously, with so bad 3D-Planes, you cannot expect a good 3D placement of your subtitles. Note also that many bad BDs have no 3D-Planes at all !

But you can also be more lucky, and have at least one 3D-Plane with meaningful values. In that case, it is usually correctly assigned to the subtitle stream, but not always (especially with many "remux" ISO found on the internet).

When there are several correct 3D-Planes, you can use Subtitle Tools -> Verify 3D-planes compatibility. It's a simple tool that will verify if there are depth values in the 3D-plane for all subtitles of the subtitle stream, and display some statistics. You can therefore try to determine what 3D-Plane is best suited for your stream. But it's not magic. The tool is unable to verify if a specific subtitle depth is OK to display it correctly in 3D. It just verifies if there IS a depth, not its quality !

Anyway, if you have found a theoretically good 3D-Plane for your stream, you can now convert the stream using that 3D-Plane with Subtitle Tools -> Convert Subtitles to 3D. Note that you can also specify an additional depth (added to the depth from the 3D-Plane) to fine-tune the result. I recommend to rename the original 3D PGS converted by BD3D2MK3D (with the extension .3D.sup) and save the new one under its original filename. That way, your new subtitle will be used instead of the original one. (But if you prefer, you can also edit the __MUX_3D_OPTIONS.json file to specify the new file name.) Then, launch the encoding normally.

Note also that if you don't want to hardcode the subtitle to the video, it is not necessary to re-encode the whole MKV to try another 3D-Plane.
You can simply re-generate the 3D subtitle stream with another 3D-Plane and/or additional depth, and remux the final MKV by double-clicking __MUX_3D.cmd. That way, you can quickly do several tests if you are not happy with the first try.

Anyway, don't expect miracles. When a BD is badly authored, it is usually difficult, if not impossible, to obtain a 3D MKV with perfect 3D subtitles.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 12:30   #102  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
BTW, retrieving the forced and default flags from the MKV to automatically tick the corresponding options in tab 2 is on my todo list, but I don't think I'll implement that soon. Sorry.
Great news! I was somehow assuming you already did that, but maybe it was on an ISO rip I saw it, after all. Will wait patiently for this feature to arrive—it’d be a great timesaver if you’re going to convert all your 3D MVC MKV rips to HTAB for a "dumb" player like the FireTV 4K stick. Like I currently do.


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Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
[…]when the 3D-Plane info is missing, it's usually because there are no 3D-Planes in the badly authored 3DBD. It's very often the case with Asian or Russian BDs.[…]
Seems the Swiss aren’t much better, sometimes. The MKV MVC rip I used was made by myself, from the original "Cargo 3D" Blu-Ray I own: R2, by Atlantis Films/Elite Film AG, EAN 7613059301108 (just in case someone has it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
[…]All the rest[…]
Love the possibility of remuxing without reencoding the whole movie!

I’ll go and try your suggestions—thanks for taking the time and writing this detailed explanation! Much appreciated. And thanks @von Suppé, too.

Last edited by Moonbase; 2nd October 2022 at 12:41.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 12:46   #103  |  Link
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Turns out all 3D planes are empty. Can I still expect BD3D2MK3D to render the subtitles for HTAB correctly, be it even at depth 0 (screen surface)? (Better "plain" subtitles than none, I should think…)

Log file:
Code:
Extracting 3D-planes from MVC file with BD3D2MK3D v1.28 (c) r0lZ and OFSExtractor 1.1-beta2 32bit by TheGreatMcPain (aka Sixsupersonic on doom9)
Input MVC file: "MKV3D.track_1.mvc"
Output folder:  "."
Command: "C:\BD3D2MK3D-v1.28\toolset\OFSExtractor32.exe" "MKV3D.track_1.mvc" "."

OFSExtractor 1.1-beta2 32bit by TheGreatMcPain (aka Sixsupersonic on doom9)
Last git commit was on .

Searching file for 3D-Planes.


Checking 3D-Planes for valid depth values.

3D-Plane #00 is empty.

3D-Plane #01 is empty.

3D-Plane #02 is empty.

3D-Plane #03 is empty.

3D-Plane #04 is empty.

3D-Plane #05 is empty.

3D-Plane #06 is empty.

3D-Plane #07 is empty.

3D-Plane #08 is empty.

3D-Plane #09 is empty.

3D-Plane #10 is empty.

3D-Plane #11 is empty.

3D-Plane #12 is empty.

3D-Plane #13 is empty.

3D-Plane #14 is empty.

3D-Plane #15 is empty.

3D-Plane #16 is empty.

3D-Plane #17 is empty.

3D-Plane #18 is empty.

3D-Plane #19 is empty.

3D-Plane #20 is empty.

3D-Plane #21 is empty.

3D-Plane #22 is empty.

3D-Plane #23 is empty.

3D-Plane #24 is empty.

3D-Plane #25 is empty.

3D-Plane #26 is empty.

3D-Plane #27 is empty.

3D-Plane #28 is empty.

3D-Plane #29 is empty.

3D-Plane #30 is empty.

3D-Plane #31 is empty.

Number of 3D-Planes in MVC stream: 32
Number of 3D-Planes written: 0
Number of frames: 160826
Framerate: 23.976


Extraction took 59 seconds (00:00:59)
Extracted 0 3D-planes with 160826 frames @ 23.976 fps.

Please note that the 3D depth values stored in the 3D-planes must be applied to the two views.
The total displacement between the two subtitles is therefore two times the depth value.
For that reason, BD3D2MK3D uses internally depths value multiplied by 2.
This allows the user to specify manually more precide odd values for the total displacement of the two subtitles.
The values stored in the <depth> tags of the temp 2D XML files are also multiplied by 2, for the same reason.

Source subtitle streams information:
-  Eng  PGS, 3D-plane: ?  (3D-Plane manually assigned: 0)
-  Fre  PGS, 3D-plane: ?  (3D-Plane manually assigned: 0)
-  Spa  PGS, 3D-plane: ?  (3D-Plane manually assigned: 0)
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Old 2nd October 2022, 16:02   #104  |  Link
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Yes, I think so. But as r0lZ said, you can adjust the depth when BD3D2MK3D creates the 3D subtitles. At the options tab, you can specify an "Additional 3D subtitle depth". By setting a positive or negative value you can chose to make them appear closer or further. For me, it was a bit of try & play around with some values to see which would give a goodlooking result.

I once had a bad 3D disc with empty planes that I didn't want to recode. Fortunately, this video had a large enough black bar at the bottom. So I created a SUP stream that was positioned in this bar. It wasn't ideal, but better than subtitles interfering with video objects.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 13:43   #105  |  Link
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Yes, once again, von Suppé is right. If the option to create 3D subs is enabled in tab 2, you will get 3D subs, even if they are flat.

And yes, playing with the additional depth may be tricky, as it is very difficult to evaluate visually the best depth you should use.

BTW, when the 3D-subs are converted to XML/PNG, the depth (from 3D-plane + additional depth) is specified in the XML for each individual subtitle. You can if you wish edit the XML to change the depth of any individual subtitle, if it appear that some of them are too badly placed. You can then re-create the SUP file but be sure to use the edited XML as input. Finally, remux everything. That requires much work, but it's possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
Love the possibility of remuxing without reencoding the whole movie!
It's why BD3D2MK3D doesn't delete the tmp project folder when the encoding is finished, and why I have tried to add as many comments in the temp files as possible. A power user can modify the project as he wants (for example to add filters to the avisynth script or mux additional 2D SRT or 3D ASS subtitles...) or restart the encoding or muxing in case of problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by von Suppé View Post
I once had a bad 3D disc with empty planes that I didn't want to recode. Fortunately, this video had a large enough black bar at the bottom. So I created a SUP stream that was positioned in this bar. It wasn't ideal, but better than subtitles interfering with video objects.
It's also why there is an option to "move Cinemascope image up in 16:9 frame" in the last tab. That way, you can freely enlarge the bottom black bar to place the flat subtitles in that location, far enough from the image to avoid too unpleasant 3D conflicts. I agree that it's not the best solution, but I also prefer that than having to decipher the subtitles far inside the popping out objects. A real torture for the brain !
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Old 4th October 2022, 13:01   #106  |  Link
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3D ASS subtitles

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Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
...or mux additional 2D SRT or 3D ASS subtitles...
Never too late to learn. After years of being busy with 3D, I never heard about 3D ASS subtitles being possible.
Can you tell me how I can create these, r0lZ? And I assume they are for mkv?
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Old 5th October 2022, 18:43   #107  |  Link
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You need a SRT and a (preferably good) 3D-Plane as input. Then use Subtitle Tools -> Convert SRT to ASS 3D. Really easy. :-)

And yes, they are for MKV, but I suppose they can be muxed in any container supporting the ASS format and suitable for a player that can display ASS and two subtitles at the same time at the specified location.
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Old 5th October 2022, 20:18   #108  |  Link
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Doh. I feel terrible...

Thanks, gonna try out
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Old 8th October 2022, 20:21   #109  |  Link
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Just a short feedback re the "Cargo" Blu-Ray: Succeeded by using "plane 0" for all subs. As expected, they all sit on the screen surface, but surely better than no subs!
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Old 9th October 2022, 08:12   #110  |  Link
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Nice one.
Did you try the "extra depth" option? It can be a smoothier watch when the subtitles are just a tad "in front of" the screen.
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Old 20th October 2022, 13:00   #111  |  Link
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I’ll give that a try, too. Thanks for the suggestion. Since KODI also allows that on playout, I might check the effect first ;-)
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Old 20th October 2022, 13:30   #112  |  Link
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@r0lZ: Just to check the limits, I decided to do a "crash test" yesterday. Took out my "Ready Player One" (2018) Blu-Ray, ripped the main title to MKV, and used that file to push BD3D2MK3D v1.28 (and the Win11 VM on my poor little Linux laptop) to the limits. (Yes, I do like to keep all audio and subtitle tracks…)

Here are the results:
Code:
Blu-Ray: Ready Player One (2018)

MKV input file size: 48.2 GB
Playing time: 2h 19 min 58s
14 Audio tracks (DTS-HD MA and DTS 5.1 separated)
32 subtitle tracks (22 full + 10 forced)
32 MVC planes used
Intermediate data: nearly 66 GB

Encoding as HTAB, CRF 18, Preset slow, tuning none, BD compatible.
Only 3D subtitles.

Start: 2022-10-19T12:44:14
Subtitles done: 2022-10-19T21:21:11
Encoding & muxing done: 2022-10-20T11:12:45

Result size: 22.2 GB
Kudos on a work well done—this monster went through without a glitch and produced a perfect result!

Some remarks and maybe suggestions:
  • I tend to add a little more data to the MKV before I put it through BD3D2MK3D, like more descriptive track names ("English for the visual impaired, DD 5.1", "English for the hearing impaired") and do set the appropriate "Forced", "Visual impaired" and "Hearing impaired" track flags in the MKV.
  • BD3D2MK3D doesn't take over the track names into the resulting MKV, but provides its own names. Would be nice to have a setting that allowed taking over already existent tracks names (thus avoiding extra header editing afterwards).
  • BD3D2MK3D seems to read the "Forced" flags (shows them in the first tab) but I still had to mark "All tracks are forced" in the track selection tab. These are then put into the resulting MKV.
  • BD3D2MK3D does not seem to take over the "Visual Impaired" and "Hearing Impaired" track flags into the result. Would be nice if it did. Thinking of it, maybe "Text description", "Original language" and "Commentary" too. Please.
  • I usually set a video track's language to the language the movie’s title, signs, newspapers, etc. have (Disney is most notable for having parts in different languages in the BD playlists). BD3D2MK3D resets these to "und" (undetermined) in the result. Would be nice if it kept the video track(s) language(s), like it does for audio and subtitles.

Anyway, thanks for making a toolset that really works very well!

Last edited by Moonbase; 20th October 2022 at 13:34.
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Old 21st October 2022, 10:46   #113  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
Kudos on a work well done—this monster went through without a glitch and produced a perfect result!
Thanks !
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
    I tend to add a little more data to the MKV before I put it through BD3D2MK3D, like more descriptive track names ("English for the visual impaired, DD 5.1", "English for the hearing impaired") and do set the appropriate "Forced", "Visual impaired" and "Hearing impaired" track flags in the MKV.
    Normally, the track name is not necessary, as the language and flags are sufficient to describe exactly the track. However, I agree that BD3D2MK3D doesn't take into account that stuff from the source MKV. It's because, originally, BD3D2MK3D has been written to process only a 3DBD or an ISO, not an AVC/MVC MKV. I've added that possibility because it's a popular way to decrypt the original BD, but I have not implemented the MakeMKV specific tags, unless they have an equivalent in the MPLS of the BD.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
    BD3D2MK3D doesn't take over the track names into the resulting MKV, but provides its own names. Would be nice to have a setting that allowed taking over already existent tracks names (thus avoiding extra header editing afterwards).
    I will examine if it's easily feasible. But I have a couple of bugs to fix first.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
    BD3D2MK3D seems to read the "Forced" flags (shows them in the first tab) but I still had to mark "All tracks are forced" in the track selection tab. These are then put into the resulting MKV.
    Again, it's due to a limitation of the MPLS information. Unfortunately, the forced flag is not present in the BD (and, most of the times, in the source MKV), so BD3D2MK3D tries to guess if there are entirely forced subtitle streams (different from the normal streams with some individual subtitles tagged as forced). It's not easy, at least before the demux operation, and BD3D2MK3D may be wrong. It's why there is an option to change the detected mode. Again, that may be easier for source MKV, already tagged correctly by the user of MakeMKV. Again, I will try to do it (without guarantee).
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
    BD3D2MK3D does not seem to take over the "Visual Impaired" and "Hearing Impaired" track flags into the result. Would be nice if it did. Thinking of it, maybe "Text description", "Original language" and "Commentary" too. Please.
    Again, it's specific to input MKV. That tags do not exist in a MPLS.
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Moonbase View Post
    I usually set a video track's language to the language the movie’s title, signs, newspapers, etc. have (Disney is most notable for having parts in different languages in the BD playlists). BD3D2MK3D resets these to "und" (undetermined) in the result. Would be nice if it kept the video track(s) language(s), like it does for audio and subtitles.
    Again, the video tracks do not have an associated language code in the original BD, hence the UND tag. But if you use the option to hardcode a subtitle stream on the video, then the video stream inherits the language of the subtitle track. That's all I can do with a source BD or an untagged source MKV.
In summary, your suggestions are applicable only to the source MKV, if the user has already correctly tagged all streams within MakeMKV. And honestly, I think that only a few users do that. Why do you need to correctly tag a MKV that will only be used once, as input for BD3D2MK3D ? However, I agree that modifying manually the __MUX_3D_OPTIONS.xml file, although possible, is not necessarily easy. But the correct way to improve BD3D2MK3D would be to let the user tag the streams WITHIN BD3D2MK3D, rather than in MakeMKV. And modifying completely the GUI to allow that is not simple, and will require a larger window. Perhaps I could add a little dialog, popping when the user double clicks a track in tab 2, to input the additional info (perhaps pre-filled with the info already present in the source MKV) ?

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to implement some/all of them it if I have some free time, but currently, BD3D2MK3D is not my priority.
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Old 31st October 2022, 13:02   #114  |  Link
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Sure, that of course depends on one’s personal workflow.

I, for example, completely discard the step making of intermediate ISOs and rip my Blu-Rays directly to MKV using MakeMKV. Using the AVC/MVC MKV as an "archive base", I possibly include additional video/audio/subtitle tracks and try to flag them all correctly, i.e. default, forced, hearing impaired, visual impaired, commentary etc., plus a descriptive name like "English audio commentary by Alfred E. Newman (director)", even for, say, audio tracks—to better distinguish versions on dumb players, like "English TrueHD Atmos 9.1", "German DTS-HD MA 7.1" or "French DD+ Stereo". Most players seem to be able to at least show the track name, they might not show all flags and channel configuration. (Would make no sense playing TrueHD Atmos on a 5.1 set, or DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 on a simple stereo set.)

Thus, I’m grateful that you already support MKV as input. Everything else mentioned is just a bonus that would make things a little easier (i.e., not having to copy over track names from the original "archive" MKV).

I also love the little extras like the "left-eye-first"-approach or the "default-tracks-first" rearranging. Dumb 3D TVs (like my Samsung) don’t care much about the stereoscopy flag in MKV, they’ll use whatever flags the stream has set, or simply "left-eye-first". Also, players like KODI cannot in all cases flip the eyes correctly, or even play AVC/MVC MKVs in 3D. This is the main reason I use BD3D2MK3D—I keep the ".3d.mvc.mkv" for archiving (and the Vero 4K+) and generate ".3d.htab.mkv" for my FireTV 4K/Samsung TV combo.
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Old 1st November 2022, 09:47   #115  |  Link
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I understand, but most users simply keep their original BD in a safe place as the "backup" and store the SBS or TAB on hard disc for the reasons you describe, or simply, like me, to have all 3D movies at their disposal in one easy place. Therefore, almost nobody (except you) take the (very long) time to convert two times their movies to MKV (once with MakeMKV to decrypt it, and once with Mkvtoolnix just to tag it). I may add a way to tag the streams directly with the BD3D2MK3D GUI, but honestly, I don't think I will take the time to add the code to retrieve the tags from the source MKV, since normally that tags do not exist. Now, of course, if the authors of MakeMKV add a way to correctly tag the streams in their program, I will probably be tempted to retrieve them automatically, because many users may be concerned, but I don't think that MakeMKV will still evolve greatly. Therefore, doing it just for you is too much work for me.

Anyway, currently, I need much time for other projects, so don't expect new features in BD3D2MK3D soon. Sorry.
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Old 19th November 2022, 10:47   #116  |  Link
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r0lZ, please don't get the impression that I want to force you to do "special programming" for me. In the contrary, I’m really happy that you brought together the tools-of-the-trade in such an easy-to-use and usable package! I’ll be happy to wait for whatever might come—or not, and do some lightweight tagging manually.

It’s actually mainly laziness (and missing storage space in the living room) that brought me to this workflow. Hard disk space is cheap, and being able to browse one’s collection through KODI from the couch is just so much more convenient than having to go to the shelves, taking a few out, deciding which to watch, and put them into a physical player. So my many old DVDs and newer "sacred" original Blu-Rays tend to mutate into "the backup" nowadays. Probably the same with most of us here.

As for 3D—and I just love 3D—BD3D2MK3D is a great and convenient tool to convert movies (to HTAB, mainly, in my case) for dumb players (most KODI players, unfortunately) that can’t handle AVC+MVC video.

So thanks again for your work (and that of all involved)!
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Old 20th November 2022, 11:44   #117  |  Link
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r0lZ, please don't get the impression that I want to force you to do "special programming" for me.
Sorry, that was not my intention. I just pointed out that doing a (relatively) hard work for the usage of only a few persons is currently not possible for me. I live now in the mountains, under the sun, and I don't want any more to spend much time in front of my computer. It's why BD3D2MK3D will probably not evolve much more, although I still develop it somewhat, mainly to fix bugs.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.
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Old 26th November 2022, 11:29   #118  |  Link
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I live now in the mountains, under the sun, and I don't want any more to spend much time in front of my computer.
Sometimes we forget how wonderful the real life can be—enjoy!
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Old 28th November 2022, 11:32   #119  |  Link
r0lZ
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BD3D2MK3D v1.29 released

As promised, here is (finally) v1.29 final.
It fixes several relatively important bugs, and should therefore be installed.
Thanks to every peoples who helped me to locate and fix the bugs.

Quote:
v1.29 (November 28, 2022)
- It is now possible to convert a MKV created with MakeMKV containing a 3D movie in the non-standard 720p resolution.
- bug fix: The frame rate of any input MKV (in MakeMKV mode) was always 23.976fps.
- bug fix: In MakeMKV mode, the TrueHD tracks were always demuxed (with eac3to) even if they were not selected by the user.
- bug fix: The 2 streams for hardcoded subtitles in Full-SBS/TAB mode were not generated.
- workaround: Wrong tracks order for AVC+MVC 3D MKV created or remuxed with another tool than MakeMKV
- workaround: Demux crash when an audio or subtitle stream doesn't have a language code in the MPLS
- Added BDSup2Sub++ v1.0.4 64-bit beta, as it has less bugs than BDSup2Sub++ v1.0.3 (that will still be used on 32-bit systems)
- Updated x264 to the latest version (v0.164.3101)
- Updated x265 to the latest version (v3.5+68)
- Updated mkvtoolnix to the latest version (v72.0.0 'Minuano (Six-eight)')
As usual, download the latest version here: BD3D2MK3D.7z
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BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV
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Old 28th November 2022, 12:30   #120  |  Link
von Suppé
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Thanks for your continuous work, r0lZ.
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