Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > General > Audio encoding

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd July 2004, 17:39   #661  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Re: Re: OT !!!

Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
My 2 cents on this: Having s short sticky with links to various methods is a good idea and can be of help for look-up and getting up to speed purposes, but it does in my opinion not replace the need to read through most of the pages of this threat. Where I live, there is a saying going along the lines: "reading educates", and this is what I mean when I advise all newcomers to take the time and read through the details. There is simply no replacement for doing this.

Concerning the pros and cons of each method, this is a function of so many variables (personal taste, source material used, reproduction equipment, even brand of CD-R used, just to name a few), and my preference would be to not use such ratings and just keep it to the technical description & details. Giving 'pros & cons' to the outcome of a method is just a source for endless and mostly unproductive discussions, and I believe that every one here can make up his mind and go the route he or she likes best.

Maybe 2 sticky would make everyone happy. Just my 2 cents.

Andreas
Hey Andreas,

Excellent worded !

I agree that some kind of links-sticky-thread can be useful !

Or a FAQ !

About the pros and cons : I think we should make a FAQ to give newbies some kind of direction and describe what the bidules try to achieve. But they still need to try them theirselves. We cannot tell them : this bidule is better or worse , because of all the reasons you said !!

TTYL

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 3rd July 2004, 17:47   #662  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Re: Re: Re: Re: strange problem !

Quote:
Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Im sorry but i know how the signal path works in bidule.
as i said ALL signal paths are in 32 bits, and there is no supplemental information that passes through the graph.
The VST plugin has no clue that we record the final output at 32 bits or 16 bits. (or that we change those settings in the file player or recorder)

Please send me your .bidules, and a clear step by step way to reproduce.
I can send you the bidules, but the two that gives the problems are so simple

fileplayer 2 channels > SRS VST (or Spat DPL Decode) > filerecorder 6 channels.


That's really all there is !

But if you wish to have the bidules, please tell me where to upload them to !

BTW there is also some reaction from SRS : they tested in Nuendo and they worked. They didn't test in Bidule and the VST was not designed for Bidule.

Doesn't help much :-) and I thought VST's were universal ?!

What I will do is this : I will test the same in another program (I believe it's called Audiomulch ?) and see what happens there.

BTW could it have anything to do with settings in XP ??
Just wondering......


kind regards,

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 3rd July 2004, 17:49   #663  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Re: Re: Re: Re: strange problem !

Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
I don't have the mapping problem, but still have the problem with >4 GB 32 bit multichannel WAV's and BeSweet demusing. Currently using WaveLab to demux things.

Kind regards,

Andreas
LOL !! That is NO problem here ! Yesterday I did a 7.4 GB mch-WAV without any problem !
And we both have the same setup !!!

STRANGE !!!!

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 3rd July 2004, 17:59   #664  |  Link
kempfand
Registered User
 
kempfand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 225
@ EoH / David: I think the mapping problem for a few is caused by specific combinations of drivers, dll's, .ax, DirectX, whatever, but not by Bidule a/o BeSweet. If it was, it would reproduce consistently on all machines.

In analogy, there were mapping problems reported for demuxing dts-wav's, and in the end, the solution was/is to use a working combination of azidts, ivaudio.ax, WinDVD, BeSweet (i.e. using specific versions of drivers etc).


@ EoH:
Quote:
But they still need to try them theirselves.
That's my point. Even experiments leading to disappointing results are invaluable, as they help to 'recognize' "good" results. In my previous live, I used to be a student for classic piano, and my teacher always advised me to visit and listen to unknown (and therefore sometimes not-so-good) live performances. I was 25 years younger then, and didn't really get the point back then, but I now realize the good advice, as it helped me personally to recognize the "good" performances and not just call them "good" because of what the adds say.

Regards,

Andreas
kempfand is offline  
Old 3rd July 2004, 18:48   #665  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
@ EoH / David: I think the mapping problem for a few is caused by specific combinations of drivers, dll's, .ax, DirectX, whatever, but not by Bidule a/o BeSweet. If it was, it would reproduce consistently on all machines.

In analogy, there were mapping problems reported for demuxing dts-wav's, and in the end, the solution was/is to use a working combination of azidts, ivaudio.ax, WinDVD, BeSweet (i.e. using specific versions of drivers etc).


@ EoH: That's my point. Even experiments leading to disappointing results are invaluable, as they help to 'recognize' "good" results. In my previous live, I used to be a student for classic piano, and my teacher always advised me to visit and listen to unknown (and therefore sometimes not-so-good) live performances. I was 25 years younger then, and didn't really get the point back then, but I now realize the good advice, as it helped me personally to recognize the "good" performances and not just call them "good" because of what the adds say.

Regards,

Andreas
Perhaps I should try a clean install again ?
It's less than a month ago, I did so !

BTW I didn't know you could play the piano at the age of 3 !! LOL !!

grtz,

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 3rd July 2004, 19:10   #666  |  Link
ursamtl
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 729
Re: Re: OT !!!

Quote:
Originally posted by kempfand
My 2 cents on this: Having s short sticky with links to various methods is a good idea and can be of help for look-up and getting up to speed purposes, but it does in my opinion not replace the need to read through most of the pages of this threat. Where I live, there is a saying going along the lines: "reading educates", and this is what I mean when I advise all newcomers to take the time and read through the details. There is simply no replacement for doing this.

Concerning the pros and cons of each method, this is a function of so many variables (personal taste, source material used, reproduction equipment, even brand of CD-R used, just to name a few), and my preference would be to not use such ratings and just keep it to the technical description & details. Giving 'pros & cons' to the outcome of a method is just a source for endless and mostly unproductive discussions, and I believe that every one here can make up his mind and go the route he or she likes best.

Maybe 2 sticky would make everyone happy. Just my 2 cents.

Andreas
Welcome back, Andreas.

I agree that a "pros and cons" discussion would be counterproductive. Yes, reading does educate, but to read the whole thread just to find something specific is not very efficient. If each new method or vidule is presented in its own thread, then added to a master list of methods without any "editorial" information, then people can zero in one specifics and evlauate them for themselves. This current thread is valuable as a discussion are for the theory of surround, etc., but the specifics for each method are better dealt with in a thread for that specific method. At present, if someone decides to post a method in a separate thread, it quickly scrolls off the first page and only those with the curiosity (and time!) to read through the thread list get to know about these. Someone new might read the beginning and then go to the last page to see what's new, but what about all the middle stuff? If it were somehow easy to zoom in on these methods, bidules, VSTs, etc., without having to read for a long time, people could spend more time experimenting and less time reading.
ursamtl is offline  
Old 3rd July 2004, 20:04   #667  |  Link
davidv@plogue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 29
Hi

Unlike Directshow (graphedit and co)'s nighmarish configuration,
Bidule is not influenced in _any_ way by any directshow filters you may have installed, so .ax, directshow, and audio driver do _nothing_ to the computations in the bidule graph OR in the mapping of channels in our file writer, as we dont use any directshow filters to read or write files or to process audio.

all audio/file processing and mangling _appart_ from VSTs is entirely made in PlogueBidule.exe and libdnsfile.dll using cross platform code. reinstalling bidule wont change anything.
Please trust me on that will ya ?

As far as the SRS vst plugin is concerned, im afraid that theres NO way im going to install a PACE - protected plugin on my system. EVER.

PACE is EVIL.

i will try out woth the acousmodule one, and get you back on that.
(i fail to see how a VST can grow arms and penetrate bidule's graph code and mess things up)

Now the reason why i ask for a step by step way to reproduce and a specific bidule file is just because i KNOW (im a bidule programmer), that the problem is either in the VST or in the way the cables are wired.

Im trying to isolate the "bug" here.

Ive proven before that Besweet OR the bidule's file writer is NOT to blame. Now there MAY be a bug in the bidule intermodule routing, but if there is one, it is STATIC, it doesnt change if you load a 16 bit wav file or a 32 bit wav file., but maybe only if you add/remove connections between the various VSTs and bidules. (this is why i need the .bidules) or if you load an entirely new bidule (which has different routings)

Cheers
davidv@plogue is offline  
Old 4th July 2004, 00:28   #668  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Quote:
Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Hi

Unlike Directshow (graphedit and co)'s nighmarish configuration,
Bidule is not influenced in _any_ way by any directshow filters you may have installed, so .ax, directshow, and audio driver do _nothing_ to the computations in the bidule graph OR in the mapping of channels in our file writer, as we dont use any directshow filters to read or write files or to process audio.

all audio/file processing and mangling _appart_ from VSTs is entirely made in PlogueBidule.exe and libdnsfile.dll using cross platform code. reinstalling bidule wont change anything.
Please trust me on that will ya ?

As far as the SRS vst plugin is concerned, im afraid that theres NO way im going to install a PACE - protected plugin on my system. EVER.

PACE is EVIL.

i will try out woth the acousmodule one, and get you back on that.
(i fail to see how a VST can grow arms and penetrate bidule's graph code and mess things up)

Now the reason why i ask for a step by step way to reproduce and a specific bidule file is just because i KNOW (im a bidule programmer), that the problem is either in the VST or in the way the cables are wired.

Im trying to isolate the "bug" here.

Ive proven before that Besweet OR the bidule's file writer is NOT to blame. Now there MAY be a bug in the bidule intermodule routing, but if there is one, it is STATIC, it doesnt change if you load a 16 bit wav file or a 32 bit wav file., but maybe only if you add/remove connections between the various VSTs and bidules. (this is why i need the .bidules) or if you load an entirely new bidule (which has different routings)

Cheers
OK ! I will post it tomorrow as an attachment to your emailaddress !
BTW I also think the problem is in the VST, but.... it does work in other programs like Nuendo, as the spokeswoman of SRS said.
Can that be possible, that a VST works good in certain programs only ? I thought it was an universal format.
And if it is indeed the VST that causes the problem, I for sure wouldn't pay $ 299.= for it !! (Despite the excellent results it gives !)

BTW can you explain more about "PACE is EVIL" ?
Does it do anything unwanted to your system ? (I ask this because I just used AD-Aware for the first time on my PC and was surprised by the amount of thrash it found !)

kind regards,

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 4th July 2004, 01:07   #669  |  Link
davidv@plogue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Montreal
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally posted by Eye of Horus
[B]Can that be possible, that a VST works good in certain programs only ? I thought it was an universal format.
And if it is indeed the VST that causes the problem, I for sure wouldn't pay $ 299.= for it !! (Despite the excellent results it gives !)
i think you may be close to something, theres a whole section of the VST format thats not used at all as my experience is concerned (600 plugins in my folder), and upon looking, it does contain details on expected host "speaker arrangements"
and _maybe_ the plugin expects us to feed it some valid values (prolly cubase/nuendo does that). And its a part of the standard that only some surround plugins require, but thats the first news i have of it.

Seems like i have no choice but to download the PACE bugger,
and check it it require us to feed it values "as if it were" inside nuendo.

Speaking of which, PACE is the most stickest copy protection you can find, it crawls everywhere and its been reported to cause some instabilities in some users PC (allthough im trying to find some proof of that, ill post the links when i do).

Its used as a desperate mesure to block piracy but often timnes bugs the legitimate users more.
davidv@plogue is offline  
Old 4th July 2004, 10:33   #670  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
List

Hi all,

When someone hurt my feelings I tend to ignore all he wrote and also the good points. (hey, I'm human too )
But it's never too late to do something about that......

My proposal : Let's make a top list with direct links to all methods used to make surround from stereo on Doom9.
I will make a start but need some help.

The way I think we should do this :
- Name of the method
- Author of the method
- Link to subject on Doom9
- Direct Link to the place to download

After that list is ready, we can add external (outside of Doom9) links.

So :

I will do this whole thread and find all the bidules and VST's mentioned in here.

Ursamtl : do you want to do the methods outside this thread on Doom9 ?

Daphy : will you do the direct links to your server ? (somethinng like : SAD51inBidule : http://www.needfulthing.org/audio/bi...ADinBidule.rar).

This way someone can chose not to dive into the subject, but direct download it.....

All others : when you find a link outside Doom9, please add !

You can send it all to me by PM, and I will make a list in the above mentioned format.

Let's ask DSPGuru then to add it as a sticky one above my sticky one....

What do you think ?

kind regards,

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 4th July 2004, 14:37   #671  |  Link
ursamtl
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 729
List

EoH,

I'd be happy to do the methods outside of this thread. I'll try and have that to you by the end of the day (the Canadian day. Yours ends 4 or 5 hrs earlier than mine ).

I think the list this will be a really valuable addition to Doom9.

Regards,
Steve.
ursamtl is offline  
Old 4th July 2004, 19:19   #672  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Re: List

Quote:
Originally posted by ursamtl
EoH,

I'd be happy to do the methods outside of this thread. I'll try and have that to you by the end of the day (the Canadian day. Yours ends 4 or 5 hrs earlier than mine ).

I think the list this will be a really valuable addition to Doom9.

Regards,
Steve.
Excellent !!!
I need a little bit longer > Finals of the European Championship Soccer today !

kind regards,

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 5th July 2004, 01:13   #673  |  Link
ursamtl
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 729
Ok, I've read through the entire list of threads on this forum and sent EoH a list of all the surround methods I could find, 14 in all. This does count the earlier versions of EoH's method. Combine that with all the stuff in the big thread, and we should have a really nice list of methods!

I've also sent him some links to related threads. These contain info that may be useful.

Regards,
Steve.
ursamtl is offline  
Old 7th July 2004, 07:59   #674  |  Link
heula
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3
I saw this thread and I tried to make a 6channel wav following this guide. Now everything went well but when making the 6channel wav to 6 mono wavs with besweet, besweet can't open the wav. Nothing happens. Also besweet gui doesn't accept the wav. The wav I created with Ploque Bidule is playable in windows mediaplayer and windvd.
When making mono wavs with a standard 2channel wav it will work in besweet.
Am I doing something wrong or.....?

Please help me out here.
__________________
Alex
heula is offline  
Old 7th July 2004, 10:06   #675  |  Link
Eye of Horus
Banned
 
Eye of Horus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 326
Quote:
Originally posted by heula
I saw this thread and I tried to make a 6channel wav following this guide. Now everything went well but when making the 6channel wav to 6 mono wavs with besweet, besweet can't open the wav. Nothing happens. Also besweet gui doesn't accept the wav. The wav I created with Ploque Bidule is playable in windows mediaplayer and windvd.
When making mono wavs with a standard 2channel wav it will work in besweet.
Am I doing something wrong or.....?

Please help me out here.
I suppose you have the latest Bidule ? (0.6601)

Goto "Edit " , "Preferences", "disk I/O" and set use WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE to "NEVER".

This will fix the problem, but..... you will have to redo your files !

kind regards,

EoH
Eye of Horus is offline  
Old 7th July 2004, 11:44   #676  |  Link
heula
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3
Thanks, this solved the problem.
__________________
Alex
heula is offline  
Old 16th July 2004, 03:00   #677  |  Link
MaroonMike
Registered User
 
MaroonMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dixie USA
Posts: 23
Quote:
Stay tuned because if you liked the bidules so far in this thread, you're going to love what I'm working on now! I should finish testing and writing a guide in another week or two. Ironically, I was testing it on the final movement of Beethoven's 9th yesterday as well as on a John Williams recording of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez. Talk about filling a room with sound
Steve,

Any update on this?

Thanks,
Mike
MaroonMike is offline  
Old 18th July 2004, 02:55   #678  |  Link
ursamtl
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 729
Quote:
Originally posted by MaroonMike
Steve,

Any update on this?

Thanks,
Mike
Hi Mike,

I deleted my previous answer as I've now posted the bidule and a quickie mini-guide in the thread http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79862 . Give it a try. I've been quite pleased with the results so far using this bidule.

Enjoy!
Steve.
ursamtl is offline  
Old 19th July 2004, 09:03   #679  |  Link
Sakuya
Registered User
 
Sakuya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 218
I really appreciate that you have created this guide. I don't understand how a given stereo track can be divided into a surround track since the original had nothing like that. You do mean a 5.1 track for DVDs right? I think 5.1 tracks is a division where some is designed to come out of the back speakers and whatnot. Since my stereo track has voices and background music mushed together, how will Plogue divide that?

Edit:
Okay, it finished recording and I now have a testresult.wav. Is there a program for me to convert it to AC3 keeping all the channels? I used BeSweet to enter this input line to get the 6 wav files:

BeSweet.exe -core( -input testresult.wav -output D:\TEST\ -type wav -6ch) -ota( -G max )

It gives me this error message:

Error 58: Error : Unknown Input-File Format : "testresult.wav".

I put the WAV file in the same folder as BeSweet.exe so why won't it work? In Plogue before I followed your guide, I set the Preferences to 48000 Hz since I'm working with that. I tried my best at the BeSweet GUI v0.7 b2 to convert the WAV to AC3 but it shows the same error message above. Is something wrong with the WAV file? I am sure I followed your guide correctly. I also tried using BeSplit to fix the WAV and output as an AC3 but the black command line box popped up and nothing happened. It just stays there with no moving white numbers.

Last edited by Sakuya; 19th July 2004 at 10:00.
Sakuya is offline  
Old 19th July 2004, 11:22   #680  |  Link
daphy
Miles Freak
 
daphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 652
Quote:
It gives me this error message:
Error 58: Error : Unknown Input-File Format : "testresult.wav".
did you realy tried this:



Moderator Edit: Fixed Image link
__________________
CYA Daphy

Last edited by KpeX; 14th May 2005 at 14:17.
daphy is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.