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Old 5th October 2009, 07:41   #1  |  Link
iffybob
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DVBt format anomily ( England )

Ok I dont expect replies, but if you want further info just ask.

I have found some DVBt transmitions that are strange, they seem to be old programes tranfered from old video tape by brodcasting companys. They were originaly 4:3 AR

When caputured (PVR), they have a resolution 720 x 576 AR 16:9, with black borders left and right.

In England the transmitions are either 16:9 or 4:3 ( not HD channels ), other ARs are letter boxed.

They view correctly on a free view box, but if you try and do a direct convertion, the AR does not look correct.

The soultion I found is to trim 88 pixels each from the left and right boarders, giving 544x576 ar 4:3, and then resize ( stretch ) to 720x576 ar 4:3, the result then "looks" correct.

(auto trim on Avidemux gave a resolutin less than 544, and did not look correct )

I dont know why they look/view correct on a free view box

This may sound obviouse, but I wanted stait it any way.

Cheers, boB..........
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Old 5th October 2009, 08:08   #2  |  Link
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It should look ok on your STB, otherwise it wouldn't be broadcast this way.

The second displaying gear was what exactly? PC, DVD player?

I think you described what I know to be called PillarBox (4:3 image into a 16:9 format with left+right black margins) - ARTE HD does this trick with old 4:3 footage.

If you watch it on a PC it seems that the value you computed is ok because it's more or less the result of "expanding to 16:9".
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Old 5th October 2009, 11:08   #3  |  Link
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Acronyms - STB - ARTE - ?

Player MP-classic, editor Avidemux - both had black boarders - and the AR looked distorted both on 4:3 and 16:9 override.

My PVR records the Audio/Video DVBt "stream" of a channel, ie it is a direct data copy from the DVB stream, with no convertion, onto a Flash drive.

I was actualy watching the prog during transmition on my 4:3 TV, the program displayed full screen 4:3 ( not 16:9 letter boxed , no black boarders).

The raw video streem staited 720x576 AR 16:9. - (MediaInfo)

When I came to edit the file I could not get the AR at either 16:9 or 4:3 to "look" correct, and the video had black boarders.

I knew the AR was 4:3, I took a guess at how to fix it ....... the output "looks" correct. ( squares look square, circles look circular )

I have had this stituation before, it seams to be when a certain channel broadcast old Video Tape convertions.
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Old 5th October 2009, 15:18   #4  |  Link
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@iffybob

There's a tool called DVDPatcher,
"The quick way to make your harddisk recorded DVB- stream DVD compatible"
http://www.wincesoft.de/html/dvdpatcher.html

regards
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Old 5th October 2009, 20:13   #5  |  Link
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@iffybob,

That's the standard way for the BBC to broadcast 4x3 material - it's actually the way it's routed internally @ the beeb's playout facilities.

Sky STBs don't have the trick of making 4x3-in-16x9 fill a 4x3 screen, so the feed is aspect ratio converted back to standard 4x3 for broadcast on satellite. Whereas what you get on Freeview is the same as what's on the playout servers, and the STB sorts it out for 4x3 TVs.

Only solution to make a "standard" 4x3 picture is to re-encode. DVDPatcher won't work.

There shouldn't (and in my experience aren't) any aspect ratio issues. Played back as 16x9 anamorphic with 4x3 centre cut, you get a correctly formed 4x3 image. Keeping the centre 540 pixels is the right thing to do (resize to 704 or 720 for 100% compliant DVD if you must), though 528 could also be the correct number to keep + resize (should be, but IIRC isn't!).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.
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Old 6th October 2009, 01:08   #6  |  Link
Esurnir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
Acronyms - STB - ARTE - ?
Set Top Box

Arte is a franco-german tv channel (which got awesome programming but that's another subject).
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Old 6th October 2009, 01:11   #7  |  Link
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Arte is a franco-german tv channel (which got awesome programming but that's another subject).
That's so true.
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Old 6th October 2009, 04:44   #8  |  Link
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I did not have much of a prob with it. it just took a little thought on how to deal with it.

varekai - 2Bdecided is correct DVDpatcher wont work in this case, it will not remove the black boarders.

STB = Free view box = ah - me stupid.

2Bdecided - correct the channel was a BBC one, other channals tend to change the AR on the video and display it at the resolution for that channel, the thing that throgh me was the way they did it, and as I was watching the prog when it was on, the fact that it full screened on my 4:3 TV, then the recorded vid was 16:9 and verticaly squiged with boarders.

I re-encode ALL my DVB vids ......... its just quicker in the long run ........... boB
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Old 6th October 2009, 10:39   #9  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
I re-encode ALL my DVB vids ......... its just quicker in the long run ........... boB
That's "unwise".

You still didn't mention WHERE did you see that circles that are not circles? On that MPC/avidemux?

There is no need to patch an otherwise DVD compliant DVB stream.


But I still wonder why people do not read the stickies or the well known guides.
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/DigiTV/dvbs-soft.htm
The above one was the first hit in google for 6 characters separated by a space dvb dvd-> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...q=f&oq=&aqi=g2
Have you tried this approach?
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Old 7th October 2009, 07:38   #10  |  Link
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I have read them, I started a few mounths ago knowing very little ( not that I am an expert now, no where near)

yes I could patch the files to look DVD complient, but due to bad reception I get minor errors in the stream, when writtern to DVD discs I got too many errors during play back, too oftern ( I dont take frustration well ). I just waste less discs if I re-encode ( I have the machine time to spare ). PC encoders are much more accepting of errors and sorting them than a DVD player, wich try to shove the data from the disc to the display.

MPC has AR overide options, I tried to play them at 4:3 and 16:9 ( the only ARs I have found that are used on DVBt UK ), both looked not quite right. Trimming to 544x576 and resizing to 720x576 looks right.

Avidemux shows square pixels on the settings I have so I dont use it to make judgments on AR.

The new ( in development ) vertion of Avidemux (2.6 I think) is going to have DVB capabilities, "good".
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Old 7th October 2009, 12:42   #11  |  Link
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There's stuff, like projectX, to fix the errors without re-encoding.

If you have a 720x576 stream flagged as 16x9 which contains 4x3 material pillarboxed into the centre 544x576, and then resize that centre part to 720x576 and flag that as 4x3 - then on-screen aspect ratio on a 16x9 TV will be identical for both (assuming the 16x9 TV is set up to not stretch 4x3 material!).

Or at least it should be.

Cheers,
David.
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Old 7th October 2009, 14:28   #12  |  Link
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2Bdecided - nice trick , I but can see "ifs" in what you are suggesting about TV / DVD setups and assumptions .

One tool I do have a use for is a program identical to DVDPatcher, but has the option to leave the bitrate value unchanged.

I only mentioned what I had noticed because when I first started doing this, I had a similar prob with another video recording, and could not fix it, I now know a bit more, have way better ( and free ) tools to use.

SO newbies, its a lot of stuff to learn, stick with it and aim for where you think your going
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Old 7th October 2009, 15:42   #13  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
I have read them, I started a few mounths ago knowing very little (not that I am an expert now, no where near)
And you followed the guides and still encountered problems?
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Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
yes I could patch the files to look DVD complient, but due to bad reception I get minor errors in the stream, when writtern to DVD discs I got too many errors during play back, too oftern ( I dont take frustration well ). I just waste less discs if I re-encode ( I have the machine time to spare ). PC encoders are much more accepting of errors and sorting them than a DVD player, wich try to shove the data from the disc to the display.
Patching is not necessary and not needed for a 720x576i DVB-t stream. Unless other flags are wrong, which seems not to be the case, otherwise your STB could display it in a similar manner (distorted).
After some DVDRs that you'd meanwhile waste, you'll probably find that improving your reception were a better alternative (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...26#post1313226). A good antenna runs for some 30, about the price of a 50pack spindle.
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Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
MPC has AR overide options, I tried to play them at 4:3 and 16:9 ( the only ARs I have found that are used on DVBt UK ), both looked not quite right. Trimming to 544x576 and resizing to 720x576 looks right.
You'd be then surprised to see how it looks on a real TV, if you make your assumptions on a PC screen.
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Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
Avidemux shows square pixels on the settings I have so I dont use it to make judgments on AR.
So does MPC, according to some posts here at doom9. At least on OP's files.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
The new ( in development ) vertion of Avidemux (2.6 I think) is going to have DVB capabilities, "good".
The last good thing you could have done would have been to upload a sample, but you missed that too .
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Old 7th October 2009, 16:46   #14  |  Link
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Quote:
And you followed the guides and still encountered problems?
My frustrations and lack of knowlage, ( and my excuse I was ill at the time, and prob not concentrating to much), I also had a PVR-DVBt crossed wire, I have an odd type PVR, it records a single channel, not like the USB fobs that record an RF multiplexed channel.

Quote:
you'll probably find that improving your reception were a better alternative
Er .. I cant find the post, but that has been decused on here to death, I know I got bad reception not much I can do without moving house.
(just realized the link you posted is to a post by me , and the one I was looking for)

Quote:
You'd be then surprised to see how it looks on a real TV, if you make your assumptions on a PC screen.
Quote:
So does MPC, according to some posts here at doom9. At least on OP's files.
I have found that the DVBt free to air ( Free View ), only transmits 4:3 and 16:9 all others are letter boxed ( except what I high lighted in this post ) so the the options are very limited, but I use the overide in the options, the videos are flaged with AR, but they do change at add breaks and programe changes, I look for squares and circles to look right.

As a note with MPC, changing the AR overide does not always look correct, but if you set it, close MPC then re-open it (double click the vid ), it displays correctly.

Quote:
The last good thing you could have done would have been to upload a sample, but you missed that too
I did consider this when I thought it was an unusual setup, turns out I was wrong by some of the comments, I have limited bandwidth, and vids are big, but if you want one I still have the original DVB file, just ask I'll lop off 10MB ish, just say where you want it....


(PS I pay arounf 15 ( English ) for 50 DataWrite DVDs )
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Old 7th October 2009, 17:23   #15  |  Link
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For the last time:
1. if you want a PAL circle to look like a circle, you have to draw it as an ellipsoid on a PC. And viceversa, perfect circles on PC would look like the eggs on the table on a PAL TVs (or like Columbus egg on NTSC TVs). The factor that distort the image is called PAR. There are also DAR (you call it AR) and SAR
2. if you refuse to buy an active antenna (for DVB-T) you'll get always into the same trouble, eg having broken recordings, spending hours to repair them (most software would give up in some cases), then seeing them in a bad quality for the rest of the DVDR life.
3. unless there's indeed a problematic file (and you really live in the twilight zone, since all the other DVB-T files originating from UK were absolutely ok) the guides simply work.

Meanwhile I strongly suggest you to read more about DVB (in general) and video (also in general) before spending hours of work for nothing.
Google for any software called TMPGenc DVD author, videoredo or DVRStudio. They have wizzards that take your DVB-T file and output a DVD without any sofisticated knowledge. You may try the trial versions for 30 days. You can learn them in less than 30 seconds for testing purposes. Burn a DVD-+RW and test it on your TV. Not on your PC monitor.

----
PS: In Germany you can buy a product and return it if you're unsatisfied, no questions asked (or you don't have to answer them ). Testing (almost) free.
---

PS2:
Maybe you got this message in a wrong manner. Relax, download one of these 3 proggies and do a run. If everything goes ok, and it should, because I've checked myself several probes from DVB-T UK, then you don't have to worry about DVD compliance (I think some UK broadcasters, there is a thread here, have a longer GOP - we'll solve this later) and you want no subtitles (which is a bit different), then your files (should they be error-free) would yield a perfect DVD, ready to be played.
if the DVD you burned is not correctly displayed, provided you set it up accordingly (like any other Hollywood movie, or like your STB does), then upload a piece of DVB and we'll see what is the problem.
We can discuss 'till the Doomsday this philosophy... but this won't help you. You're just complicating things...

Last edited by Ghitulescu; 7th October 2009 at 18:48. Reason: sugar pill
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Old 7th October 2009, 19:38   #16  |  Link
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I have just checked, all that I got way back, as I said I was ill when I started doing this, it was somthing to take my mind off the "ill", looks like I did not get projectx, I downloaded the source, and I dont do the compiling thing anymore ( compiler compats and libs etc ) , I will now get back to it.

In England we can "generaly" return products that "are not fit for purpose" or are "faulty", with comp software you can see the problems, and the regulating/enforcment authorities are well underfunded. ( and I have to admit Id rather they act on faulty kids toys or electrical eqiment that can kill, than software that anoys)

I have seen max GOPs of 53 (PVAstrumento), resolutions of 720,704,544 by 576.

PS as far as I remember ( from my well old prog days ), to get a circle to look correct I used Bressenhams Algo, and depends on the absolute pixel ratio, or you could just alter the veritcal hight of the screen ( but then we worked in absolut pixels )
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Old 8th October 2009, 06:15   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iffybob View Post
I have seen max GOPs of 53 (PVAstrumento), resolutions of 720,704,544 by 576.
We'll sove the GOP issue later on. 544 files can be patched with dvdpatcher or similar before authoring then repatched back to 544 after authoring.
Now get one of these 3 one-click trial softwares (I used TDA 1.5 but 3.x also works, VRD and DVRS not yet and I don't need them, but they are simple, nice and stable applications, unlike those first ranked in google) and burn a simple DVDRW (no edting, no menus, start-import files-no menu-author dvd) and check it on your TV with your DVD player (or neighbours or whatevers).
Check here for an EXE -> http://www.oozoon.de/main_en.html (the 6th result in google for projectx).
Quote:
PS as far as I remember ( from my well old prog days ), to get a circle to look correct I used Bressenhams Algo, and depends on the absolute pixel ratio, or you could just alter the veritcal hight of the screen ( but then we worked in absolut pixels )
Forget the PC, forget the programming. It has nothing to do with video editing (unless you want to programm such a tool). We are not discussing PC issues here...
I'm glad that you are now healed, you can read more about the video editing. Like this one -> http://lurkertech.com/lg/video-systems/.
Don't complicate things with theoretical what ifs ... and no practical tests ...
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Old 8th October 2009, 10:38   #18  |  Link
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Yeh I got ProjectX ( exe versions this time ), the English docs are spread out, am going to trawl through them, should take a few days ( life getting in way ), the lurkertech looks a good read, will read through that.

One thing I will point out , I live in England, just cos there is a standard does not mean that people stick to it, there for you need to question every thing you hear and read, and decide if what you are reading is correct, and just as important what redefined dictionary they are using. I dont know if this is the case in Germany. but here its best if you check every thing.

Thanks for the advice ( and dont worry about the rant, better in than out, and I have got a thick skin )..... Cheers boB
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Old 8th October 2009, 11:48   #19  |  Link
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@iffybob

Just try ProjectX - if you're lucky, the defaults will work just fine. They did for me.


@Ghitulescu

This isn't Germany. There are huge swathes of the UK where DVB-T reception is 100% impossible, and plenty of other areas where an external aerial will still get plenty of reception errors. We won't be fully switched over from analogue to digital until 2012. And before switch over started, indoor set-top aerial coverage of DVB-T was about 30% of population.

iffybob needs a suitable external aerial - but it's quite possible he has that and still gets errors. Yorkshire is pretty hilly! If you can see this...

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/emley/emley-photos-10.php

...which serves lots of Yorkshire and beyond, you're fine. But many people can't, and most relays around here don't carry DVB-T yet.


There's always Freesat (free-to-air DVB-S).

Cheers,
David.
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Old 8th October 2009, 15:48   #20  |  Link
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I live in rented accomadation, and the external arial broke a few years back during bad weather, the landlord said it was my prob, so I got an airial ( 8 pronged ) hooked up to an amplifyer, where I live I get bad reflections ( it appers as ghosting on analoge TV ), except in one place in the room, and there the signals not good ( grainy on analogue) , I do need a better arial though ( when I got the spare cash ).

Also the DVB transmitter is not outputting at full strength, until the full Analogue -> Digital switch over.

One thing I was wondering - the free-ed up channels will be sold off to data services ( 3G type ), as the DVBt RF channels are now in this range, how will they be affecting the DVB signel, are they just setting it up to produce interference, at the moment I use a 3G internet connection, an that somtimes interfers.

I have given Projectx (GUI)a quick look, I got it to demux, Avidemux refused to open the m2v, is over a 1000 warnings, normal for 1 1/2 hours of prog.

I think what I am after is to demux, then get ProjectX to re-mux to an mpg, for editing ( trim cut etc ) - is that right.
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