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Old 25th August 2019, 01:01   #221  |  Link
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I'll still take it over no blending at all. Another benefit (for me anyway) of playback at 60Hz is no need for audio delay. Also with smooth motion there are no repeated frames, so custom resolutions become unnecessary.
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Old 25th August 2019, 02:46   #222  |  Link
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Yep, smooth motion is a great feature for OLEDs. It works way better than I would have expected.
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Old 25th August 2019, 12:18   #223  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
If the C8 internally works with YCbCr and only converts to RGB in the last step that would explain why I got better results outputting YCbCr in SDR pc-mode.
In SDR mode? I haven't noticed anything like this with SDR content with RGB Full 12bit input.
If you have such a scene (preferably BD remux) then upload it somewhere.

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Outputting YCbCr would mean additional color conversions happen on the pc side but less color conversions happen inside the TV.
Yes, although this seems the best option in PC mode (see below), from madshi's post:
"If you switch your GPU control panel to YCbCr, the GPU receives RGB from Windows, but you ask the GPU to send YCbCr to the TV. Consequently, the GPU has to convert the RGB pixels behind Windows' back to YCbCr. Some GPU drivers might do this in high bitdepth with dithering, which may produce acceptable results. But some GPU drivers definitely do this in 8bit without any dithering which will introduce lots of nasty banding artifacts into the image. Furthermore, there are various different RGB <-> YCbCr matrixes available. E.g. there's one each for BT.601, BT.709 and BT.2020. Now which of these will the GPU use for the conversion? And which will the TV use to convert back to RGB? If the GPU and the TV use different matrixes, color errors will be introduced. As a result I cannot recommend this configuration."

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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I notice a huge difference in banding with full range RGB input between PC mode and HDMI mode. I would rather have the banding than subsampled chroma, but I use the display for a lot more than watching 4:2:0 compressed video.

If I use YCbCr444 limited range input I get basically the same banding as when using HDMI mode, but while in PC mode with 4:4:4 chroma. This has the GPU converting madVR's output but it seems to do a better job than the display does, which probably works in limited range YCbCr internally somewhere given the banding differences. This seems like the best compromise I can get. I cannot stand subsampled chroma but the banding is still pretty bad with raw 8 bit RGB input on the C9.
Only good news is that YCbCr444 results in the exact same (near) chroma 4:4:4 as RGB Full.

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
And if the TV does all the internal processing with only 8-bit precision in pc-mode that would also explain the banding. I think madVR does such things in 16 or even 32-bit.
16bit internally. But there *is* "banding" (and other crazy sh*t) with 8bit RGB Full as well in HDR10 mode.

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I just tried pc-mode HDR again a few days ago. Played the UHD of Brightburn, skipped to some dark scene and it looked like some low bitrate TV broadcast.
This. Good spot with HDR10 content! It's not even 8bit vs 10bit but RGB vs YCbCr 4:4:4.
It's like some basic processing is missing in low APL (darkish) scenes with LG's tonemapping (with and without LG's DTM) that destroys the image (madvr tonemapping can't help this). Interestingly I haven't spot wierd things in normal/high APL scenes.

Download this sample (~3.6GB) (01-2160p_23fps_hdr0686-thgm_banding.mkv).
I spotted at least 3 different problems (maybe 2nd and 3rd is the same), tested with passthrough + DTM + RBG full 12bit:
- banding: e.g. red light of torches around @03:20
- added noise: @00:32, around @01:16
- posterisation: clouds in dark scenes, @03:20, @03:25, etc.

Posterisation is just crazy sometimes! That's what you've noticed and I didn't so far. That's the biggest problem and this has nothing to do with 8bit vs 10bit as it's also present with 8bit.

8bit YCbCr 4:4:4 (limited) eliminates a lot of them, but there's still banding and the nasty posterisation still exist e.g. @03:25 (although removes it from @03:20).

None of this happens in HDMI mode even with RGB Full 12bit!
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Last edited by chros; 7th August 2021 at 12:38.
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Old 25th August 2019, 15:17   #224  |  Link
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Hey for those using/testing madVR tonemapping (with the latest test build) with HDR output to your OLED, what tonemapping settings are you using in madVR? There's a ton of options and I don't really know what most of them do and what values to use. Also, if using DTM, does using madVR tonempping even make a difference? Any help here appreciated.

I did just manage to disable Real Cinema in HDR mode and it only took me 10 minutes lol. Smooth Motion is definitely the way to go with these.

Last edited by iSeries; 25th August 2019 at 15:22.
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Old 25th August 2019, 15:39   #225  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
at 120 HZ it would get "worse"(if you want the "ghosting") because you get less blended frames and they are shown shorter letting it look more like native 24 hz.
I’m not sure about this.
From Asmodian options guide:
Quote:
The blurring is more visible when the refresh rate matches the source frame rate because all the frames will be blended frames. The blurring is less visible on higher refresh rate displays because fewer frames will be blended frames.
[CUT]
Note that smooth motion has less blurring when displaying 23.976 fps at 60 Hz than 23.976 fps at 24 Hz so this option is not recommended unless you cannot increase the display's refresh rate.
It’s rather confusing. I would say that displaying 23.976 material at 120Hz should lead to results similar to 23.976 at 24Hz. All frames would be blended frames, wouldn’t they?
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Old 25th August 2019, 16:36   #226  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Hey for those using/testing madVR tonemapping (with the latest test build) with HDR output to your OLED, what tonemapping settings are you using in madVR? There's a ton of options and I don't really know what most of them do and what values to use. Also, if using DTM, does using madVR tonempping even make a difference? Any help here appreciated.

I did just manage to disable Real Cinema in HDR mode and it only took me 10 minutes lol. Smooth Motion is definitely the way to go with these.
This is a very complicated topic, I'm afraid. You're not going to get a single, concise answer. That being said, I can offer my personal opinion on this topic.

-I have settled on disabling DTM on the LG for now...I may change this opinion once I do more testing.
-I use unscrewed with measurement files. I don't try to get cute with them and modify them for more "dynamic" solutions. This is a very personal choice.

For HDR tone mapping settings:

-Target nit to 760
-Highlight recovery strength Are you Nuts? This is also a very personal choice as this can introduce ringing but damn it's nice IMO.
-fire set to balanced

I ignore the rest of it because I'm not using the live algo.

I have unchecked everything in trade performance options. I use error diffusion 2, color checked. I use ngu aa high chroma. That about covers it. FOR ME.
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Old 25th August 2019, 17:45   #227  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I’m not sure about this.
From Asmodian options guide:

It’s rather confusing. I would say that displaying 23.976 material at 120Hz should lead to results similar to 23.976 at 24Hz. All frames would be blended frames, wouldn’t they?
you are just wrongly interpret his post.
if you use SM 24 hz with 23p file you get blended frames that are shown for about 42 ms which is very blurry.

if you do SM at 120 hz with 23p the blurried frames are shown for 8.3 ms about every 42-8.3 ms and the far majority is not blended
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Old 25th August 2019, 18:58   #228  |  Link
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Guess which one is pc-mode.

HDR RGB 8-bit (pc vs non-pc):



HDR ycbcr 8-bit (pc vs non-pc):



PC-Mode HDR completely fucks up the low end on my C8. Not only the banding but also the colors and it transitions into black too fast. I didn't even try to somehow calibrate this out because even then the banding would still remain. What's funny is when you use madVR's 'reduce banding artifacts' it sometimes makes the banding look even worse in pc-mode.

I also tried this with 12-bit output but that didn't make it any better.

Last edited by j82k; 25th August 2019 at 19:01.
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Old 25th August 2019, 19:03   #229  |  Link
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PC mode on these displays is completely broken IMO. I tried it before and had to turn it back off because the issues are just too much. It's nice to have chroma 4:4:4, no question, but, breaking so many other things defeats the purpose.
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Old 25th August 2019, 19:49   #230  |  Link
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I have been thinking the black crush on PC mode never got fixed with the latest C8 firmware. For SDR, I have bumped the luminance of the 5% 20-point to +10, but even then blacks seem to fall off way too much.

I have not watched enough HDR before or after the FW update to make a comparison.

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Old 25th August 2019, 22:46   #231  |  Link
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I also tried this with 12-bit output but that didn't make it any better.
How does PC mode look with YCbCr444 limited range input?
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Old 26th August 2019, 01:27   #232  |  Link
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Banding wise I'd say for sdr pc-mode ycbcr444 8-bit is the best one to use, for hdr pc-mode everything is just terrible...
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:09   #233  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Hey for those using/testing madVR tonemapping (with the latest test build) with HDR output to your OLED, what tonemapping settings are you using in madVR? Also, if using DTM, does using madVR tonempping even make a difference?
Use these for testing, and that's the purpose of the exercise

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Guess which one is pc-mode.
These are perfect examples!

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
PC-Mode HDR completely fucks up the low end on my C8. Not only the banding but also the colors and it transitions into black too fast.
Interesting, not on mine (see below).

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
I didn't even try to somehow calibrate this out because even then the banding would still remain.
It's not "banding", at least not in the traditional sense, more like posterisation (due to lack of processing): and it sometimes (not all the time) destroys the image.

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for hdr pc-mode everything is just terrible...
Just watched the new Men in Black HD10 passthrough in PC mode RGB Full 12bit + DTM: it was gorgeous!
I tried to count how many times I notice some anomaly: 5 times during the whole movie.
This is a very bright movie (9000 maxCLL, 4000 MDL, 942 FALL), probably that's why.

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Banding wise I'd say for sdr pc-mode ycbcr444 8-bit is the best one to use
I never noticed this on my set (PC mode RGB Full 12bit), and the last 2 days I even tried to look for a sample (switching between PC and HDMI mode).
If you will come across such a sample upload it, please

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I have been thinking the black crush on PC mode never got fixed with the latest C8 firmware. For SDR, I have bumped the luminance of the 5% 20-point to +10, but even then blacks seem to fall off way too much.
Are you sure? Have you switched between PC and HDMI mode to confirm black crush?
That's why I'm still on 4.10.25 B8.

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Panel variance...

Just quoting Ted here:
"Some LG OLED's have passed the factory QC (Quality Control) with near black clipping issues and shipped to stores, for these panels it will be required to adjust the Brightness to 55-56 or up to 60-61 (in worst case scenario) from the default 50 value for the near black clipping issue to be resolved. "
I saw this as well, it's really said. I know at least one person who has a C8 like this (brand new set, no panel replacement, black crush at default settings with the built-in app).
Fortunately my B8 was factory calibrated, original panel hasn't been replaced yet, so it has almost perfect gamma tracking in every mode (SDR, HDR10, DV; both in HDMI and PC mode).

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I know people don't want to believe that there can be such a huge panel variance with LG Oleds and but I've experienced this with my own C8. The original panel had a very bright low-end and then I got a replacement panel (due to vertical banding) which had an extremely dark/crushed low-end at default settings.
This means that the factory calibrated settings (White point in service menu, 1dlut, something else?) on the mainboard are not good for the new panel, and that's "normal".
The question is: can we do something about it by ourself?
- we can modify the RGB values of White points in service menu
- but I'm not sure about the screwed up 1dlut: can you correct it e.g. with Calman?
- what else needs to be done in this case? (whether it's possible or not)
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Old 26th August 2019, 17:46   #234  |  Link
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I never noticed this on my set (PC mode RGB Full 12bit), and the last 2 days I even tried to look for a sample (switching between PC and HDMI mode).
If you will come across such a sample upload it, please
From what I can tell, the pc-mode banding is mostly in the lower range and the banding from 12-bit output I could often see in the mid or higher range, like gradients in the sky. I could look for scenes but right now I don't feel like messing around with that again. I'm just done with pc-mode and 12-bit for now. I just occasionally like to check if there had been any changes with a firmware/nvidia/windows update regarding those issues. In SDR it's not that bad but I don't want to constantly switch between pc-mode for SDR and non-pc for HDR.

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This means that the factory calibrated settings (White point in service menu, 1dlut, something else?) on the mainboard are not good for the new panel, and that's "normal".
The question is: can we do something about it by ourself?
- we can modify the RGB values of White points in service menu
- but I'm not sure about the screwed up 1dlut: can you correct it e.g. with Calman?
- what else needs to be done in this case? (whether it's possible or not)

I think LG only does a very basic 2-Point Gain RGB adjustment in the service menu for each panel. They don't do anything that would affect the black levels. So just a lack of quality control I guess...
All you can do if you got such a crushed low-end panel is trying to find some combination of brightness/2P Low RGB/ 20-Point that fixes the low-end and doesn't raise true black...

Last edited by j82k; 26th August 2019 at 17:51.
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Old 27th August 2019, 12:05   #235  |  Link
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I could look for scenes but right now I don't feel like messing around with that again. I'm just done with pc-mode and 12-bit for now.
No worries, maybe others will

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I think LG only does a very basic 2-Point Gain RGB adjustment in the service menu for each panel. They don't do anything that would affect the black levels.
Hmm, I might ask Ted
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Old 27th August 2019, 16:44   #236  |  Link
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Nope I've no desire to mess with the broken PC mode again either. 8 bit hdmi mode for me.

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Old 29th August 2019, 12:11   #237  |  Link
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One thing I was wondering about, considering my current status as a plasma owner: if one looks closely to the pixels, on a plasma, one sees "noise". I think it's PWM noise. For many it's something they wanted to eliminate but I'm wondering if it would be feasible to replicate it on an OLED, through a shader or something. I am not sure but I'm half convinced that it was part of the "organic" look that many liked with plasma.

Edit: maybe using Random Dithering/Error Diffusion 1, with color noise and change dither for every frame could suffice? Testing this, I would say no.

Last edited by ashlar42; 29th August 2019 at 12:27.
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Old 29th August 2019, 15:43   #238  |  Link
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try 5-6 bit random dithering that should give you a similar results
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Old 21st September 2019, 08:43   #239  |  Link
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LG 55EG920V with MadVR

I got this TV a couple years ago only to watch movies. In the store the TV was demoed with a 4k opera, and the image was breathtaking, and it looked like HDR. All reviews I saw highlighted the possibility for HDR images. Quite a while late I learned that the HDR was only possible when feeding the images via a USB stick (!) not via HDMI, and that it was caused by a software flaw that LG had no intention of correcting. HDMI input gets overridden, I understand. I've got two questions, first, does this influence the usage with MadVR? Second, is there a workaround, say via a service menu settings, to get HDR on this panel from the HDMI input?
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Old 21st September 2019, 09:02   #240  |  Link
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No, only when you want to passthrough HDR metadata to the TV, but let madVR do the tonemapping and it is fine.
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