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Old 2nd September 2021, 21:17   #1501  |  Link
ChaosKing
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So all fansubber?
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Old 3rd September 2021, 12:05   #1502  |  Link
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So all fansubber?
ROTFL
I've seen fansubber doing that in the 2006-2008 era.
Madness... and far too much free time those youngsters had back in the days...

(and I was "guilty" of being one of them back in the days :P )
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Old 9th September 2021, 15:41   #1503  |  Link
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Even back when some anime nerds did do "manual" IVTC, they never actually went through every frame one by one. The typical workflow in tools like YATTA and its successors was to use pattern guidance; that is find sequences of frames with a consistent 3:2 cadence and then generate an override file for those sequences that forced that pattern. When you were lucky you only had like 3-4 pattern breaks for an entire episode (e.g. it was produced as progressive and telecined very late in the production process); if you were unlucky you had hundreds, but that's still far short of looking at every frame.
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Old 11th September 2021, 19:52   #1504  |  Link
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Easy for humans. Quite a challenge for computer algorithms
LOL no. Interlacing is a mathematically very unique phenomenon that has nothing to do with image-recognition or any other human visual system bullshit. The key characteristic that makes it incredibly easy to distinguish from normal detail is that non-adjacent pixels are more similar to each other than adjacent pixels. In particular, for any given column of five pixels A, B, C, D, and E:

- pixels B and D will be more similar to each other than either one is to A, C, or E; and

- pixel C will be more similar to A and E than it is to B or D

This is literally all you need to distinguish interlacing from detail or from noise. If the problem seems "difficult", it's because certain people are ignoring differences between non-adjacent pixels and dicking around with multiplication and arbitrary user-defined threshold parameters, as if they were just copying and pasting from edge-detection algorithms. Hell, neither of TFM's combing metrics even bother to look at the differences between A and B, or between D and E, and Metric 1 doesn't bother looking at pixels A or E at all.

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Katie, you think they're different 'cause you "see" them as being different, but a computer doesn't see, a computer works with numbers.
No, they are different because they are MATHEMATICALLY different. In fact, I've sometimes had to use sharpening or other filters to reveal interlacing that was too subtle for the human eye to notice, but which a competently designed algorithm would have picked up easily.

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The whole frame is divided in blocks and macroblocks of a certain size, they can be 4x4, 8x8, 16x16 etc.
Macroblocks have nothing to do with deinterlacing because deinterlacing filters don't work on encoded video. They work on decoded video, which is a bunch of individual pixel values.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:04   #1505  |  Link
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Macroblocks have nothing to do with deinterlacing because deinterlacing filters don't work on encoded video. They work on decoded video, which is a bunch of individual pixel values.
By motion vectors I mean newly created Vectors to find differences on an uncompressed AV Stream frameserved by Avisynth. Vectors are created from scratch trying to compare blocks temporarily and thus finding out repeating patterns (this is how TDecimate gets rid of telecine for instance) but sometimes this doesn't work well and I've already explained why...
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:57   #1506  |  Link
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If only we had some coders that were as brilliant as Katie, wouldn't that be something.
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:19   #1507  |  Link
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By motion vectors I mean newly created Vectors to find differences on an uncompressed AV Stream frameserved by Avisynth. Vectors are created from scratch trying to compare blocks temporarily
Again, nothing to do with interlacing.

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repeating patterns (this is how TDecimate gets rid of telecine for instance) but sometimes this doesn't work well and I've already explained why...
YOU DON'T NEED TO LOOK FOR PATTERNS. YOU ONLY NEED TO COMPARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ADJACENT AND NON-ADJACENT PIXELS.

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If only we had some coders that were as brilliant as Katie, wouldn't that be something.
Coding = taking existing ideas and translating them into computer code.

I'm not good at that. I'm better at correcting stupid ideas before they reach the "translated into code" stage.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:55   #1508  |  Link
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So don't forget to consider all the possible kinds of motions that could appear in a video. There is not only "uniform linear horizontal", although it may be the most common. I am pretty sure one can find "academic examples" of motion which does not clearly calculate to lower differences for non-adjacent lines (like even pixel wide vertical).

I remember a more or less entertaining approach of (IIRC?) HDConvertToX: Let x264 encode a tiny crop one time with --tff and another time with --bff, and compare the resulting statistic outputs...
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Old 15th September 2021, 13:01   #1509  |  Link
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So don't forget to consider all the possible kinds of motions that could appear in a video. There is not only "uniform linear horizontal", although it may be the most common. I am pretty sure one can find "academic examples" of motion which does not clearly calculate to lower differences for non-adjacent lines (like even pixel wide vertical).
Yep, precisely.
That's exactly what I was trying to tell her...
It's not "that easy" nor "that simple" as she stated.
Anyway, I'm not gonna reply any further, I feel like I can't get my message through, but after all, I've always been terrible in talking with women even when it was weather-related chit-chat, let alone about encoding xD

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Old 15th September 2021, 16:55   #1510  |  Link
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In particular, for any given column of five pixels A, B, C, D, and E:

- pixels B and D will be more similar to each other than either one is to A, C, or E; and

- pixel C will be more similar to A and E than it is to B or D

This is literally all you need to distinguish interlacing from detail or from noise.
Nonsense. Interlaced video doesn't always meet these criteria and non-interlaced video doesn't always fail to meet them.

Besides, there's more to it than simply deciding (imperfectly) whether or not an individual pixel is "interlaced".

There's no perfect solution to this problem. Any attempt will involve compromises.

If you haven't even implemented your solution, how do you know it's better than any other?
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Old 15th September 2021, 19:17   #1511  |  Link
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So don't forget to consider all the possible kinds of motions that could appear in a video.
Motion has nothing to do with interlacing.
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Old 15th September 2021, 19:35   #1512  |  Link
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Motion has nothing to do with interlacing.
Of course it does. If there is no movement between the fields then there will be no combing and no need for deinterlacing.
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Old 16th September 2021, 01:22   #1513  |  Link
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Of course it does. If there is no movement between the fields then there will be no combing and no need for deinterlacing.
Unless it's around a scene change. Or it's a fade. Or there's literally any other change in the image that isn't caused by motion (someone turns a light on, for example).
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Old 16th September 2021, 02:44   #1514  |  Link
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Sure, those qualify as "motion between fields" too. But you made the false claim that motion has nothing to do with interlacing. What matters is whether the picture content changes across a field pair. Real motion is certainly a major instance thereof, and that explains why motion-adaptive methods can work better.

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Old 16th September 2021, 09:57   #1515  |  Link
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"Interlacing" means that two fields of a frame have been shot at different moments of time. If there is no motion, there is no difference to a progressive frame. "Combing" (while watching a whole frame) gets only visible for areas in motion because their content has different locations at different moments of time.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:08   #1516  |  Link
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I've always been terrible in talking with women even when it was weather-related chit-chat, let alone about encoding xD
Me too, always seems like they would fail in a Turing Test :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test
EDIT: Or do I mean pass, or even Indeterminate.
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Old 18th September 2021, 03:36   #1517  |  Link
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Sure, those qualify as "motion between fields" too.
Linguists and physicists, and pretty much the entire english-speaking world, disagree with you.

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But you made the false claim
There was nothing false about it. You can have motion without interlacing (it's called "progressive" video) and I already gave several examples of visible interlacing without motion.

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What matters is whether the picture content changes across a field pair.
Agreed. And that's not the same thing as motion.

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"Combing" (while watching a whole frame) gets only visible for areas in motion
Or if the picture changes for any other reason.
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:47   #1518  |  Link
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Interlacing or even combing has (directly) nothing to do with motion.
The detection of interlacing and combing has.
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Old 18th September 2021, 12:14   #1519  |  Link
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Linguists and physicists, and pretty much the entire english-speaking world, disagree with you.
This isn't a linguistic or physics forum. We have our own vernacular that doesn't always align with general usage, as does any field, and it's clear in this case that everyone except you is quite comfortable using the word "motion" to describe changes in pixel values. If you insist on being so pedantic (if that's even the right word when someone is incorrect), motion is at the very least one of the main causes of combing in interlaced video, so the claim that "motion has nothing to do with interlacing" is patently ridiculous in any case.

You might as well claim that there is no such thing as motion in a video at all, because it's just a collection of pixels changing over time.
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Old 19th September 2021, 05:28   #1520  |  Link
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The detection of interlacing and combing has.
Nope. Detection only requires that the two fields be from slightly different images.
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