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Old 31st July 2006, 17:45   #21  |  Link
manusse
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Hi ai4spam,

Let me first sum-up how we came to this solution:

Paddington asked several times last year about how to overlay a bitmap on top of the video. He had several answers but nothing directly operational. The idea was to be able to preview the subtitles look and feel, position, ... on top of the DVD before creating the actual SUP file used by muxman to remux the original DVD.

At the beginning of this year, I became interested in this field. I had no idea about DirectShow neither about any other method that would allow to incrust a bitmap in real time over the video. After a few research (Google is my best friend) on my own, I thought a DirectShow filter could be an interesting solution. Some information from Paddington confirmed this could be a way.

Also for the interest of learning a new (to me) technology, I tried making my own DirectShow transform filter and managed to get a working one. I proposed it to Paddington who was interested. This solution has some advantages: it's our source code and we can adapt and enhance it as much as we want without any restriction. However it has some disadantages: Works only with a small (to our knowledge) subset of the available DVD decoders, could have performance issues, proprietary solution...

Why didn't we chose another solution?

I can imagine (now) there are many other solution among which: Use DirectVobSub (even though I don't know how), directly overlay a bitmap using the bitmap overlaying capacities of MS video mixing renderer 9... However I knew nothing about those subjects 8 months ago and Paddington didn't find another working solution despite he tried.

I didn't know about "AviSynth and AviFil32.dll" until today. This could also probably have been a solution but at the time of SC 1.9.2, we didn't know about it. However if I read well on its website
Quote:
AviSynth is a powerful tool for video post-production
So it could probably not be used for real-time subtitles overlay, could it?

What about using another solution now?

Changing solution today means somebody taking this in charge. Knowing that it took us 2-3 months to fully integrate the current solution into SubtitleCreator. I suppose changing solution is interesting only if the new one has several advantages over the current one. (aka performance, not proprietary, working with most of the DVD decoders ...).

Also it must be an open-source solution (or a solution with a future).

To be clear, I don't see the interest and don't personally have the time now to implement a different way what is currently working quite well.

However, if somebody else wants to try to integrate a new solution, the whole application (including the DirectShow filter with its documentation) is open source (at sourceforge), so it is possible.

And in the future?

The current implementation opens new possibilities for DVD subtitle makers and for SubtitleCreator. It is now possible to adjust the look of the subtitles by previewing them on the video before. In the future, somebody else (or Paddington, or myself) could propose/implement some better way of doing that than using a proprietary filter.

This is only my opinion about your question. Paddington may think differently.

And finally a question

I hope my answers explain why we have chosen this solution clearly enough. Let me finally ask you a question.
For what reason did you ask this question? Did you notice some problems with the current solution we use?

Cheers
Manusse
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Old 1st August 2006, 01:18   #22  |  Link
Paddington
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Manusse gives a good description of the process, and I also don't feel a particular need to replace his filter.

The only question I still need to investigate is why the DVD players WinDVD, PowerDVD, another freeware mpeg decoder and my 3 hardware DVD players (all different brands) display the subtitles in different vertical locations? For example, I have the impression that by opening the same DVD in WinDVD or PowerDVD, each will show the original subtitles on different vertical positions. Any suggestions anyone?
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Old 2nd August 2006, 04:17   #23  |  Link
ai4spam
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I meant no disrespect for your work, I'm sure it took a lot of time, frustration and digging to come up with a solution like you did. I just saw your own description of the limitation, and proposed a very simple solution. Incidentally, it's what I use in SubRip's module for ripping hardcoded subs. The code (Pascal) is one file, which is basically an interface to AviFil32.dll for opening the video and audio streams, and getting a frame by its number. AviSynth is a frameserver: it takes in anything you can play with MediaPlayer and makes any application trying to play it think that it's dealing with an .avi. That way, basically you can open a DVD, a VCD, a MPEG, you name it. Your application has a very simple interface to it, and is able to work without worrying about what's underneath. AviSynth is open-source, and works great. It works in real time if you don't make it do too much processing. As you mentioned, that's a pretty limited use for it, as it can do many more things, like apply its own filters or VirtualDub filters to each frame before giving it to your application. I wouldn't recommend using its subtitling filter (although that's possible); I would do the overlay in the application, on the raw bitmap. That way, you have total control over the appearance of the subtitles.

Last edited by ai4spam; 2nd August 2006 at 04:20.
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Old 6th August 2006, 06:02   #24  |  Link
DonMartione
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I'm trying to synchronize some edited subs with the originals. However, whenever I try to open the .sup file to synchronize them, it just sits there and doesn't load. The progress bar fills up but it just sits there, I even left it alone for 5+ minutes.

edit - I just upgraded to 2.04 and tried again and still the same problem. Here is a screenshot as well. http://www.dmartin.net/sc.jpg

edit 2 - Ok, apparently it works fine as long as I open up the .sup file first in the synchronize menu, and then open my text .srt and .ifo. If I do it in the reverse order then it just sits there.

Last edited by DonMartione; 6th August 2006 at 20:21.
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Old 14th August 2006, 10:40   #25  |  Link
Corert
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Hello Paddington,

A few days ago I wanted to add a subtitle to an existing dvd, so I downloaded subtitlecreator (version 2.04) to synchronise the new subtitle with the existing subtitles. The new version was a big improvement, especially with the 'DVD wizard' function! I tried it and it was easy, only it partially fails. The new subtitle was added, but only the first original subtitle was added. I though muxman was the problem, because it can only handle 8 subtitles and my dvd did already have 9 subtitles. Therefore, the total would be 10 subtitles, but even muxman advanced did not do it right. So, unfortunately I was forced to do it by hand and it turns out that the dvd was a little too big for a dvd5 (4.37 GB). Does subtitlecreator checks the dvd size or is it limited to an dvd5?
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Old 15th August 2006, 00:08   #26  |  Link
Paddington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corert
Hello Paddington,

A few days ago I wanted to add a subtitle to an existing dvd, so I downloaded subtitlecreator (version 2.04) to synchronise the new subtitle with the existing subtitles. The new version was a big improvement, especially with the 'DVD wizard' function! I tried it and it was easy, only it partially fails. The new subtitle was added, but only the first original subtitle was added. I though muxman was the problem, because it can only handle 8 subtitles and my dvd did already have 9 subtitles. Therefore, the total would be 10 subtitles, but even muxman advanced did not do it right. So, unfortunately I was forced to do it by hand and it turns out that the dvd was a little too big for a dvd5 (4.37 GB). Does subtitlecreator checks the dvd size or is it limited to an dvd5?
SC tries to read the existing subtitles from the IFO file, which normally works well enough except for some problems when there is a widescreen and a 4:3 screen version of the same subtitle. If you have many subtitles, you can go through the wizard and check/add them again manually (the wizard accepts srt/sub files, as well as sup files, so you can add any sup file that SC missed).
Muxman's freeware edition only allows you to add 8 subtitles via the GUI, but internally (in the project file that I create), I can add up to 32, so that's no problem.

About your second question, SC doesn't check the filesize of the final DVD, since it cannot change it anyways: When using DVDShrink for coyping the DVD, there should normally be enough room to add one more subtitle. If you use a different program, that may not be the case. In that case, you will either:
  1. have to remove an existing subtitle to make some room
  2. if the existing subtitles are very large compared to the one generated by SC, you can open and save them in the SUP manipulation tool (which removes empty space, thereby compressing the sup file)
  3. recompress it again using DVDshrink to make it fit
Hope that helps!
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Old 15th August 2006, 11:15   #27  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddington
SC tries to read the existing subtitles from the IFO file, which normally works well enough except for some problems when there is a widescreen and a 4:3 screen version of the same subtitle. If you have many subtitles, you can go through the wizard and check/add them again manually (the wizard accepts srt/sub files, as well as sup files, so you can add any sup file that SC missed).
Muxman's freeware edition only allows you to add 8 subtitles via the GUI, but internally (in the project file that I create), I can add up to 32, so that's no problem.

About your second question, SC doesn't check the filesize of the final DVD, since it cannot change it anyways: When using DVDShrink for coyping the DVD, there should normally be enough room to add one more subtitle. If you use a different program, that may not be the case. In that case, you will either:
  1. have to remove an existing subtitle to make some room
  2. if the existing subtitles are very large compared to the one generated by SC, you can open and save them in the SUP manipulation tool (which removes empty space, thereby compressing the sup file)
  3. recompress it again using DVDshrink to make it fit
Hope that helps!
Thanks for your reply and explanation.
I will try it when this problem occurs again.
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Old 24th August 2006, 22:22   #28  |  Link
tomywong
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Hi Paddington,

I find out SC v2.x have little problem. When you go into "manipulate SUP file", delay function have problem. After you re-timming, click ok, it say "value can't be null". Why ? Also, when you select video format is NTSC, then show subtitle target area, it is wrong position. Please check. Thank you very much !
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Old 25th August 2006, 15:46   #29  |  Link
garysan
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3 things

Hallo to all of you and thanks for this great software!

1) In these days I am using it for my personal subtitled DVD. I think it's a very complete and easy editor but still now I find that the quality of the rendered subtitles is a bit less than the ones made by Txt2sup. There are always some strange "wild dots"... The quality is anyway good but have you got any suggestions ? What is the difference in the rendering process between Txttosup and SC?

2) Do you know about "Illegal colors" ? Some weeks ago I made a DVD with full white (RGB255) subtitles and when I projected it with a classic PC videoprojector I found that it was an "illegal color" in fact there were some strange (not wanted) light effect... brrr... Do you know if subtitled generate by SC, srt2sup and txt2sup are automatically checked for this problem, or not ?

3) About the little differences in vertical position... Yes, I can say the same thing and I don't know the reason. I can also say that the time In and time OUT of the subtitles can also change (a little) from a DVD player to another and this can be a problem when you try to cover an hard subtitles track with an optional subtitles track. For example some Nortek dvd players show the subtitles always with 0,4 seconds later.

Bye !

gary-san
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Old 1st September 2006, 10:09   #30  |  Link
manusse
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Hi garysan,

1) About the wild dots problem, you should post an example file so that we clearly see what the problem is.

2) What do you mean by illegal color. It may be related to the projector you are using. Or do you have the specs of an "illegal color"?

Cheers
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Old 6th September 2006, 15:33   #31  |  Link
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Interesting changes

Most of my usage of S.C. involves creating subs from a text (.srt) file. I was using v1.92 and only just discovered the new versions.

I installed v2.04 and noticed that the .srt file converted to a .sup file in v1.92 was 1700K or so and the same .srt file converted in v2.04 was 1100K or so, with all settings being equal?!

Does v2.04 automatically reduce the bitmap size/placement if for example you have a one word subtitle and the number of lines selected is, say, four?

I also noted that, when re-opening the .sup file after converting, two or three of the subtitles were missing, even though the conversion process seemed to go fine.

I am in Canada, and we have the NTSC system here. Is there a way to cause S.C. to default to NTSC? Also, the changes or corrections S.C. makes when loading text subs (cleanup spaces etc) can be unchecked, but this also reverts to checked when the program is re-started, which is a bit of a pain, as some of my titles are descriptions in brackets which disappear the next time I load them (because I always forget to uncheck that stupid box!), and this does not occur with v.1.92.

Also, in v2.04 the ability to change the number of lines has vanished from the top-right "menu" and I had to drag the box with the cursor, can you bring that back?

Paul

whew! It's still a great program, don't get me wrong, but I may have to go back to v1.92 just to make things easier for me.

One more thing, sorry, when you change the aspect ratio of the background picture, it would be nice to see the background in black, the way it would look on the television.

Last edited by Paulcat; 6th September 2006 at 20:18.
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Old 8th September 2006, 09:46   #32  |  Link
krypton22
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Just wanted to thank you guys (Paddington, manusse) for this great tool. Nothing more
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Old 10th September 2006, 11:07   #33  |  Link
manusse
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@Paulcat,

Hi Paulcat,

You ask if there is a way to have SC work in NTSC by default. This is quite easy. First change the format to NTSC (Format -> Video format ...).
Then save the settings: Settings -> Save settings. And that will do it.
The same answer applies to the corrections applied by SC when loading subtitles. Just change the option to meet your requirements and save the settings.


About the size difference between of generated SUP between SC2.04 and 1.92, this could be due to some options that are not the same. For example the anti-alias filter. The SUP format uses RLE compression for the subtitles so a big difference in size can mean quite no difference in the final result, depending on the algorithm details.

You write that when you convert one of your files from srt to sup some subtitles are missing. Could you please post the incriminated srt file so that we can check.

Quote:
Also, in v2.04 the ability to change the number of lines has vanished from the top-right "menu" and I had to drag the box with the cursor, can you bring that back?
If you look at the third page of "SubtitleCreator user guide" you should see a screen copy of SC2.0.1. You can see that the "Position subtitles" group has a "#Lines" box where you can type the desired number of lines. Did you try it?

Cheers
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Old 11th September 2006, 14:38   #34  |  Link
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Manusse:

I don't know why I didn't look in the menu for settings, probably because I was switching back and forth between 2.04 and 1.92, and somewhere in there my brain shut off! I will try that!

As for the conversion, I converted 930 text subtitles to sup format and re-opened the sup to play with the adjustment options, and it only re-loaded 927 subtitles. Since I have modified that original srt quite a bit, all I can do is try it again when I am home (I am at work now) and see if I can duplicate the error. If I can, I'll post the srt file.

I have also figured out the problem with not being able to see the #lines adjustment in the menu. When I first start SC, the text window for the subs is approx. half the screen, and as a result, the adjustment menu is partially missing. If I pull the text window down, it re-appears. The "default" size of the text window must have changed between 2.00 and 2.04 because this only occurs with the latest version. Hopefully, this will also be saved in the settings...(I feel like such a fool!)

I do have a few other questions though. In the srt I was working on, there were some lines that were highlighted in green (duration error), yet they play fine in the completed DVD, what is the criteria for duration?

Also, some lines were highlighted in blue (too long), but since the subtitle window I was using was four lines, I had plenty of room. Does the length calculation default to 2 lines and/or a certain size of text in the font settings?

Final question, in the default colour settings, there is an option for the anti-alias colour as transparent or non-transparent. Toggling this option on and off does not result in any change in the on-screen appearance of the text when the 'show actual output' flag is un-checked. It does change in v1.92.. Which option on the toggle generates a clearer subtitle on the final DVD or it is a matter of trial and error?

Paul
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Old 11th September 2006, 20:08   #35  |  Link
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@Paulcat,

The duration error is parametrized in the Settings.xml file:
(In C:\Documents and Settings\UserName\Local Settings\Application Data\SubtitleCreator\)

Code:
<CheckSubDuration>True</CheckSubDuration> 
<!-- Define the max chars per second you allow.  --> 
<MaxCharPerSecond>25</MaxCharPerSecond>
For the (too long) problem, check that Format -> Wrap lines is selected if you want SC to automatically go to the next line when the text is too wide to fit.

Cheers
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Old 11th September 2006, 21:13   #36  |  Link
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I didn't read whole theread, but I don't think so that anyone sugested the same. I also no programmer so I din't know is it possible at all, but:
Is it possible to compile srt2sup the way that it will be .NET independent (with build in needed libraries or so)?
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Old 11th September 2006, 22:19   #37  |  Link
Heathcliff!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodeus
I didn't read whole theread, but I don't think so that anyone sugested the same. I also no programmer so I din't know is it possible at all, but:
Is it possible to compile srt2sup the way that it will be .NET independent (with build in needed libraries or so)?
Nope. It isn't. But why would you want to? More and more apps rely on .NET. The framework makes life for developpers a lot easier. More sophisticated apps can be build even faster. In Vista .NET 3.0 will be installed by default, no-one needs to download it anymore by then. But even if you would have to download it, what is 20MB now-a-days?
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Old 12th September 2006, 07:39   #38  |  Link
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Yeah But I'm on FreeBSD
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Old 12th September 2006, 17:40   #39  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodeus
Yeah But I'm on FreeBSD
Maybe you can try Mono. But I'm not sure if it will work.
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Old 12th September 2006, 19:56   #40  |  Link
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I'm no programer but AFAIK mono is for compiling source writed for .NET, to be able to run it on MONO VM on *nixes.
I mentionet this earlier, to make addidional "install" package of runtime libraries that SC relies on, to not install whole .NET. I saw that trick in cdburnerxp.
While it's impossible to install .NET on wine ATM, standalone binaries runs perfectly. For instance txt2sup runs nice (I only have problem with central european charesets, and some colors).
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