Windows 11 stuttering ?

[clsid]

Madvr has option to present a frame every VSync.

But root cause is probably just the GPU up/downclocking to frequently. Similar issue exists with NVIDIA where high performance mode fixes stutters (because it prevents going into low power state).

[pirlouy]

I've noticed the GPU clock (normal and memory) always changing indeed, but then why 60 fps on 60 Hz is not affected ? Because clock is still changing a lot in this case too.

I've tried performance mode in AMD drivers but no changes. Can someone confirm that nVidia performance mode does not change anything ?

[Klaus1189]

Originally Posted by pirlouy

Can someone confirm that nVidia performance mode does not change anything ?

I can confirm that on RTX50 card it doesn't do anything for this issue, for other Nvidia generations maybe others can test it.

[huhn]

this has been reported counless tiems but usually with the clocks going so low that frames are actively dropped.

optimal with making sure the DWM isn't bugged out works flawless here.

present a frame for every vsync is something i haven't disabled and test in forever.

if setting mpc-hc to high performance and works take it.

[pirlouy]

I know you both (clsid & huhn) know a lot and I read several times indeed you advised to use "performance" mode.
But did you really try it and check my test files ? Does it make a difference ?
I think you'll see judder like us because it's an issue with DWM Vsync and it is not linked to driver since we (Klaus and I for now) are able to reproduce it with AMD and nVidia and even in performance mode.

But that's my interpretation as a limited user (opposite of microchip8 )

[huhn]

i don't test your file is is literally not playing i use other test files.
i also don't use performance i do not need it i need to kill the explorer to fix my judder/presentation glitch issue.

i didn't test my 9060 xt much in that regard it is not in my HTPC.

[Klaus1189]

What is in your HTPC?

[pirlouy]

@huhn: Files are not playing in any player ? Including mpv ?!! I suspect bad faith !
But no problem, you know I would do anything for you huhn ! As you may have noticed, I'm a bit crazy about judder so I have other test files: I've update my shared linked, you'll find a new folder "motionbarsh264" with other test files.

@Klaus and others motivated by test: Could you test the file with mpv again but with this config ?
video-sync=display-vdrop
(hoping you know how to do it, mpv.conf file for example but if you don't know I'll try to explain)
It is supposed to do the same as default video-sync=audio but it looks like with this config I don't have judder at all !!

[clsid]

By using display sync, it now presents a frame every VSync. So it should now also have higher GPU load, similar to playing 120fps video (minus the extra decoding work).

[huhn]

Originally Posted by clsid

By using display sync, it now presents a frame every VSync. So it should now also have higher GPU load, similar to playing 120fps video (minus the extra decoding work).

it only calls 120 presents not dong any extra work the over head is close to nothing. or 50% of my GPU goes off for the interop...
even on my 360 HZ screen it cost barely anything while madVR insane inefficiency will make a real 360 hz video unplayable just by applying the "final steps".

with that option or not GPU-z shows no load difference what so ever.

Originally Posted by pirlouy

@huhn: Files are not playing in any player ? Including mpv ?!! I suspect bad faith !
But no problem, you know I would do anything for you huhn ! As you may have noticed, I'm a bit crazy about judder so I have other test files: I've update my shared linked, you'll find a new folder "motionbarsh264" with other test files.

@Klaus and others motivated by test: Could you test the file with mpv again but with this config ?
video-sync=display-vdrop
(hoping you know how to do it, mpv.conf file for example but if you don't know I'll try to explain)
It is supposed to do the same as default video-sync=audio but it looks like with this config I don't have judder at all !!

mpv struggles with that new file with and without video-sync=display-vdrop
i still point my finger at windows.

that's the pattern i use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQThKZBYcI

perfection by accident for testing judder. you can also just change the frame rate if you want to check other frame rates

[clsid]

mpv docs says that it affects performance because it renders subs for each present (although thats on CPU) so I assumed it might also redo shader processing etc.

Nevertheless, the fact that it presents every VSync has effect on Windows behavior, since it effectively no longer is running at half VSync. It is likely there might be some kind of "optimized" mode in Windows for half VSync or low framerates.

But I wonder why the present every VSync option in Madvr doesn't work. Afaik it is on by default, or haven't you guys tested with stock madvr settings?

Even NVIDIA has released a hotfix for Windows giving crap performance in games after recent update, so there are plenty of bugs in the Windows graphics stack.

[pirlouy]

OK, I though "video-sync=display-vdrop" was just another way of dropping frame without doing GPU extra work, but it seems you're right. This extra works doesn't seem to use much GPU, but it uses 5 watts more (watt meter plug, best way to mesure charge), and nearly as much as using "video-sync=display-resample" with interpolation. So it must "presents a frame every VSync" as you said.

Btw with my new config, I'm a bit disappointed by efficiency. Before, I was able to watch a video with less than 40 watts (i3 + 1060), now it's 60 watts minimum. Not the kind of progress I expected in 5 years but I'm digressing.

@huhn: Your video is OK and indeed it's still possible to change framerate in mpv with "speed= 2.5" or "vf=fps=fps=source_fps*2.5" but visual bars are often a good (better IMO) way to detect judder.

[Klaus1189]

Originally Posted by huhn

i didn't test my 9060 xt much in that regard it is not in my HTPC.

Originally Posted by Klaus1189

What is in your HTPC?

Nvidia?

[huhn]

4060

Originally Posted by clsid

mpv docs says that it affects performance because it renders subs for each present (although thats on CPU) so I assumed it might also redo shader processing etc.

Nevertheless, the fact that it presents every VSync has effect on Windows behavior, since it effectively no longer is running at half VSync. It is likely there might be some kind of "optimized" mode in Windows for half VSync or low framerates.

But I wonder why the present every VSync option in Madvr doesn't work. Afaik it is on by default, or haven't you guys tested with stock madvr settings?

Even NVIDIA has released a hotfix for Windows giving crap performance in games after recent update, so there are plenty of bugs in the Windows graphics stack.

draw a frame every vsync is default now and it seems to be bugged and always on.

in the past you could use the mpc-hc statistic window and with 24 it would show 24 with sm and 24 source 48 and with present every vsync well your vsync. it is currently the vsync.

edit:
it most likely works just fine and mpc-hc can not detect it anymore with the newer stuff it works with d3d9 backbuffer.

[huhn]

new post because i found something new:
https://i.ibb.co/HTF7g5s4/image.png
the ultra jitter stuff is when the windows desktop is broken the straight line is after killing the explorer.
with that stuff going on there is no wonder a glitch will happen.

[pirlouy]

What is the application with this OSD which displays orange graph ?

In my previous tests, I mentionned that even without explorer.exe, I had these stutters. So I'm not sure explorer.exe is the real source of problem but rather DWM.

[huhn]

rivatuner
msi afterburner should install all you need.

it resets the dwm.
if the explorer blindly restarted is does nothing you have to go a couple of folder deep.
the explorer it self shouldn't have any effect in the first place.

[pirlouy]

Some issues I've noticed:

- Sometimes I have audio dropouts (once by movie I'd say), but I also had this in my previous configuration (nVidia), and it was recent, so it lets me think it's a Windows 11 recent problem.

- An issue I didn't have before, so maybe it's a Radeon Driver problem, but I still think it's a Windows 11 problem:

At some point, I'd say after 20 or 50 minutes, I'm starting to have dropping frames. if I enable statistics, I can see that the frequency of TV, instead of being around 23.976 Hz, is below. One time it was at 23,000 Hz for a minute ! Too bad I did not take a screenshot at that moment.
To fix this, you just need to have an interaction with DWM: For example, exiting fullscreen and going back in fullscreen, frequency is back at 23.976Hz.
Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away.

Here is a screenshot when we see frequency is way below 23.976 Hz: https://imgur.com/dqRrR6v

Disclaimer: I only have 8 GB of RAM at the moment. Still prayi... waiting for more. But I don't think it's linked since switching fullscreen fixes the problem.

[CruNcher]

@Pirlouy

this

"Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away."

it isn't normal it is something Microsoft Promised when they showed their new Graphic Stack in this new wonderful Windows Experience to be fixed forever.

You shouldn't see it happening.

Btw its 20 years *cough**cough*

Me (with schwarzeneger accent): "ahhh we are back in the good old times"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZOu3GkUhYE

Surprises me a bit all the time that ben landed up at Amazon and not at Netflix

Btw Windows 11 Finalizes some of those things set to achieve 20 years ago also successfully

and when everything goes wrong with it IT SUCKS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTpA5jt1g60

When someone tries to rescue the legacy, yes kick those suit/tie asses hard plummer

[huhn]

Originally Posted by pirlouy

Some issues I've noticed:

- Sometimes I have audio dropouts (once by movie I'd say), but I also had this in my previous configuration (nVidia), and it was recent, so it lets me think it's a Windows 11 recent problem.

- An issue I didn't have before, so maybe it's a Radeon Driver problem, but I still think it's a Windows 11 problem:

At some point, I'd say after 20 or 50 minutes, I'm starting to have dropping frames. if I enable statistics, I can see that the frequency of TV, instead of being around 23.976 Hz, is below. One time it was at 23,000 Hz for a minute ! Too bad I did not take a screenshot at that moment.
To fix this, you just need to have an interaction with DWM: For example, exiting fullscreen and going back in fullscreen, frequency is back at 23.976Hz.
Another way is if I have a notification from Windows center. Notification appears above movie; During notification I have judder, but that's normal behavior with Windows for years (they offer to hide notifications during fullscreen to hide the problem). But frequency comes back at 23.976 Hz when notification goes away.

Here is a screenshot when we see frequency is way below 23.976 Hz: https://imgur.com/dqRrR6v

Disclaimer: I only have 8 GB of RAM at the moment. Still prayi... waiting for more. But I don't think it's linked since switching fullscreen fixes the problem.

try to force disable freesync.

without it it is not possible to change the actual refreshrate on the fly only the composition rate.

my TV is set to 120 and it sometimes goes to 122 (over max...) which will result in massive issues disabling freesync entirely fixed that.

with 8gb ram for the next 4 years you are pretty doomed.