Panasonic FS88 / FS200 VCR snowy playback issue

[Busty]

I have a Panasonic FS88 since about 30 years, and I always had this problem of a sudden snowy picture, which sometimes went away immediately and sometimes takes 20 minutes or so until the picture is clean again. When I play the same spot again, there's a good chance that the snow comes again, maybe stronger or weaker, but after 3-4 times it plays back clean most of the times.

But it can always came back any minute. On a 4 hour tape, this happens about 3-10 times.

I had a second unit back then, which showed the same behaviour. I brought it to service back then, they changed heads or something expensive, but the error remained.

This only happens during playback and never during recording.

Now I bought a serviced FS200 (with return option) and it shows the exact same behaviour.

This does not happen with a Philips VR1100, this VCR plays back without issues.


This leaves me with two questions:

- Can anyone here share their experience with these Panasonic units FS88 and FS200 regarding the sudden snowstorm?

- If this is dirt on the heads, why does the VR1100 not show the same symptoms?

[lollo2]

Third question: does it happen with all tapes or just one?

[Busty]

Hey Lollo, it happens with every tape. There might be the occasional excemption. When this snow happens, I often eject the tape and insert a different one and the snow reappears on the "new" tape.

Seems to me as if it's dirt that eventually get's transported away over more or less time, but that's just an assumption. Then the next assumption would be that the Philips VR1100 transports the dirt differently.

I might have chosen a wrong thread title. I'd like to know if this is a common issue with Panasonic or maybe only with these Panasonic models. I like the clarity of Panasonic's picture way more than the Philips one, even with all processing options turned off, so I'd really like a flawless Panasonic VCR. But before I buy another one I thought I'd get some experience reports, if possible.

[Emulgator]

Mould on the tapes (whitish spots on the coil, visible through the cassette window) ?
Does cleaning the heads help, at least for a short period of time ?
This does not explain the Philips resilience, but I just would like to throw this in.

[Busty]

no, there's no dirt to be seen on the tape. I *think* cleaning the heads has an effect, but I won't open this "new" VCR because I will return it, there's even a one-year-warranty on that one which would be void if I open it.

I cleaned heads about 10-15 times on my old VCR and most of the times, it helped, sometimes only on the second go. But I'm still not sure if cleaning was responsible or maybe just ejecting and reinserting the tape, because sometimes just changing the tape does the trick too.

My impression is that the more often I play the tape, the lesser snow is produced.

[Sharc]

@Busty: Make sure that your players have "Autotracking" (or similar) set to ON.

[Busty]

Thanks, but it's definitely not a tracking issue, also hifi sound is staying fine all the time (which would not be the case with tracking issues)

[Emulgator]

A sample would help.

[Busty]

Yes. I should have provided samples right from the start.

https://limewire.com/d/WIHzP#U4Nfj9b538

https://limewire.com/d/iB6tK#Zla3BUAi7Q

These are pretty fast clean again, there are occasions where this goes on for several minutes. The TBC may start to freeze a bit (well, it's snowing, so no wonder:-) when this happens, so the capture does not show how it is exactly, but you get the picture I guess.

[Emulgator]

Example 1: Dirt on tape which clogs the head gaps then gets dragged off again to be picked up next time ?
Example 2: The same. If you see one field's content staying then Panny has tried to replace the bad signal from its field memory ? My 950 does that)
(Why the other VCR Philips is not susceptible to that I can not tell.)

You will have to clean the tape.
Have a dummy VCR ready for that.
(Open, all unnecessary parts removed, but functional for FFWD/REW)

Open the cassette shell, remove lid & brakes. close again.
Pull the complete tape over microfiber cloth between your fingers twice, back&forth.
There was a quality available with leathery touch, this helps.
You will be astonished what it finds after a few meters. (8mm film stock: pooh;-))

[Sharc]

Looks to me like a hunting between tape dropouts/dirt and player auto tracking attempts. The result will depend on the player. Problematic (dirty) tapes with tracks misalignment (fitting the Philips better than the Panasonic?) as the root cause, or "stretched" (overstressed, worn tape)?
What if you disable the TBC and auto tracking in the player?

[Busty]

@ Sharc,
hmmm, Im still not convinced that bad tracking is involved here. When I disable the TBC th snow looks identical, though I wouldn't be able to provide a sample because all / most snowy frames would drop. (I could film the screen, though.) The ghosting during the snow part is a product of the TBC.

I don't think I can disable auto tracking. There are two buttons for tracking and when pushing them simultaniously, the VCR tracks to the best of it's knowledge, which is perfect most of the times. There's no difference whatsoever when I push them during snow and trying to track manually only makes it worse. Also, when tracking is bad, hifi sound is not recognized anymore, but with this problem, hifi sound is always fine.

@Emulgator,
the dirt theory does make good sense and fits my experience with this. Thanks for explaining a means to counteract it. I still got questions how to proceed with the cleaning.

So, I put an unbraked tape without lid in an open VCR. and how exactly do I pull that over microfiber? Do I pull out a bit of tape and then press ff or how does this work?

I have some unused microfibers for cleaning glasses, are those good enough? Or could you kindly point me to a product, so I don't get a wrong one? I'm a bit afraid that the leathery things harm the tape in the process, but I guess it's a matter of applied pressure.

[Emulgator]

Microfiber: Cloth brands do differ per country, in the end most of it stems from China.
Mine was bought like 2010, rather suede-like, pink, 30x30cm, one of a 4-pack in a cylindrical hull, each cloth had different texture and colour.
Can be handwashed many times, and I did.
(Hull inlay is long gone, it was a one-off anyway, was in a supermarket's stock for a few weeks only.)

"Do I pull out a bit of tape and then press ff or how does this work?"
Yes. You start with lowest pressure, glossy magnet pigment outside only, barely touching, not making any wrinkles, best cleaning only one side at once.
For starters you may try to touch the tape on posts only.
If successful, leave it at that.

For heavier deposits like mould, smoke aerosoles it would be better if you can modify a cheapo VHS.
The how-to would be different for any model.
Got to know schematics, lock out certain unneeded control loops, block or fake sensors,
maybe remove some shielding, brackets, audio head, pinch roller, until you made a place to pull tape.

For heaviest deposits (glue, food, drinks) local wet cleaning:
Unmount lid & brakes. Clean all internal tape guides/posts/guides first.
Length by length pull out 0,5..0,8m on a squeaky clean glass table and wipe wet, back side first.
(Glue: Isopropanol, or Benzene, or a mix of these two. food & drinks: glass cleaner, then distilled water.
Let dry completely, then clean the pigment side. Again let dry completely before winding in !
Otherwise tape will block at the guides, or stick together, and get twirled/wrinkled/backwound.
(While on the glass plate you can even iron out some wrinkles with polished fingernail's topside.)

Last year I got even some HDV Tapes revived that way, 9µm tape thickness...

[Busty]

Thanks so much, Emulgator, for taking the time to describe thoroughly, I appreciate it. It will take some time until I will go for it obviously, because I have to think about which VCR to use for that.

Which leads to me reporting another problem: I also got a Panasonic AG7350 which produces a lot of snow, too. This one is different however, the snow is produced about every 5 seconds for about 5 seconds, then the picture is clean again, only to be snowy 5 seconds later. I tried cleaning heads, but no difference.

Here's an example: https://limewire.com/d/ncG9E#uzbWniE5hl

Can anyone tell if this is a bad head or a tracking issue or something else and what could be done about it? Because if there's no reasonable way to repair this, I might use this unit for the cleaning process.

[RetsimLegin]

Just a total guess - but I seem to recall there were sometimes issues with a static charge building up between tape and drum, which I suppose would cause playback instability. You can try slow exhaling into the slot to reduce it and see if it has any effect. I can't, however, offer any "proper" cure - other than increasing the general humidity in the room while you play back - like planting a pan of hot water nearby and hoping the steam penetrates just enough....

[Emulgator]

AG-7750 here. Tape running skewed until tracking can not cope anymore, then swinging back ?
Mechanical Adjustments necessary: watch the tape path closely.
Use pigment side as mirror, Watch any curling, waving, frilling at guides as tape transport starts.
Photograph the settings as they were (in case you need to go back).

Download the appropriate 214-page Service Manual, electrotanya has it.
Read Section 4 (Mechanical adjustments), it comes super detailed.

From the top of my head: If tape runs straight from the beginning:
It can well be that sync head offset (X-value) has to be adjusted, most VCRs have a coned fine threaded screw for that.
If tape starts to wander out: Check from left to right: Tension sensor post's angle, can be bent (before P1),
guides/posts along the Sync/Audio Head (P4), Pinch Roller.
Video drum posts P2/P3 as last resort, you need a scope for that.

You'll need fine tools, degaussed, top eyesight and lots of experience.
So I suggest you improve your skills on a cheapo deck with throwaway tapes
and work your way though until you feel safe to adjust your fine deck to the source tape.

[rgr]

Originally Posted by Busty

- Can anyone here share their experience with these Panasonic units FS88 and FS200 regarding the sudden snowstorm?

- If this is dirt on the heads, why does the VR1100 not show the same symptoms?

I can tell you that I have the same problem on my Panasonic HD630 (and earlier HD640). And never on my JVC VR1100 (which I also have), other JVCs (or any other VCRs, for that matter).
The only correlation I've found is temperature. The hotter the equipment, or the higher the temperature, the more likely the Panasonic heads are to be dirty for some time. My theory is that the Panasonic drum is more likely to wear out the tape, especially at higher temperatures.

[Busty]

you guys just rock!
Emulgator, thanks again, I did have a look inside but had the impression that the tape runs fine, but now that I know what to look for I'll do that again and see if I dare to try anything. Got the manual from Video Help. I do have lots of tapes that I don't need anymore, just no cheap deck - yet.

rgr, that confirmation is what I was hoping for when I started this question. You confirm that this is a Panasonic issue (maybe coupled with something else) and not seen on another VCR, thanks for that.
I didn't notice any temperature correlation so far, but I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I'll try some captures without the top cover. My impression was that it happens more when starting a tape from the beginning or also when a new recording starts on a tape, but not necessarily so. This can be what I said - just an impression.
Do you also think that the Panasonic output is sharper than the JVC's? Do you happen to know another brand that looks as sharp as the Panasonics?

[rgr]

Originally Posted by Busty

Maybe I'll try some captures without the top cover.

On Panasonics, you can't remove the top cover because the sensors go haywire in the light, and the VCR stops responding to buttons. If you do remove it, the area must be dark.

Do you also think that the Panasonic output is sharper than the JVC's? Do you happen to know another brand that looks as sharp as the Panasonics?

I don't think the Panasonic's image is sharper, but it's sharper on consumer JVCs (e.g., the JVC J672) than on the VR1100. Panasonic certainly produces a brighter image, but this is due to whites being blown out.

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by Busty

Do you also think that the Panasonic output is sharper than the JVC's? Do you happen to know another brand that looks as sharp as the Panasonics?

Some of the JVC's (e.g. my HR-S9500) are known to denoise aggressively, even when one disables all its filters. It may even suppress picture details. (But if one doesn't see these one won't miss these .....)
The Panasonic (e.g. my NV-HS860) produces sharper and noisier pictures with more details, so one may prefer it for capturing+subsequent post-processing. Some may consider it too sharp / too noisy though. And the Panasonic has somewhat elevated brights which may need levels correction.

My impression was that it happens more when starting a tape from the beginning or also when a new recording starts on a tape, but not necessarily so.

The Panasonic auto tracking adjustments are more aggressive than the JVC in my experience. So it may initiate retracking - producing some noisy pictures - when a new take starts on the same tape or even after a dropout happened, whereas such "gaps" are "bridged" rock solid with the JVC without (or with less aggressive) tracking adjustments.

In general, the temperature swing in my Panny is significantly higher than for my JVC.

Pro's and Con's.

Here you find alternatives to the Panasonics (Blaupunkt, Metz ...)
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...r-deutschland/