madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 3083

SamuriHL · 30th June 2021, 19:49

I think that's a fair assessment of the current status. It doesn't really differ much from what I was saying. Right now we're getting some tone mapping features (and they are quite good for the record) because of the improvements being made to Envy. I agree that new features, especially when it comes to the nVidia specific features planned, aren't necessarily likely to see the light of day on a PC release. At least not without a significant model change (i.e. a paid for version which is NOT in the cards yet so is really off the table for discussion). So I'm not disagreeing with you. I think once tone mapping is finished up, he'll likely release a stable version which could end up being a sort of "last hurrah" depending on Envy is doing at that point. And as long as it continues to work, I'm ok with where it's at. If someone manages to develop something better suited to the PC, then we'll have to evaluate our options at that point. I'm a "best tool for the job that I can afford" kind of guy. Right now, that's madvr. Going forward, I don't have a crystal ball.

ashlar42 · 30th June 2021, 21:47

While I am happy madshi managed to turn his passion into a business, I would greatly appreciate more clarity, as far as madVR roadmap is concerned.

As things stand, I'm left wondering if the Envy company is getting free beta testing, to later pull the plug and say "buy an Envy".

And this more for the company's side than madshi personally. I strongly hope to be wrong.

quietvoid · 30th June 2021, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashlar42

While I am happy madshi managed to turn his passion into a business, I would greatly appreciate more clarity, as far as madVR roadmap is concerned.

As things stand, I'm left wondering if the Envy company is getting free beta testing, to later pull the plug and say "buy an Envy".

And this more for the company's side than madshi personally. I strongly hope to be wrong.

FYI this is madshi's statement if you've missed it
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the...#post-60645444
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the...#post-60733780

ryrynz · 30th June 2021, 22:40

Remember it's not even his call to make with updates and his partner/partners are less than enthused by the idea so that's that afaic.

ashlar42 · 30th June 2021, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryrynz

Remember it's not even his call to make with updates and his partner/partners are less than enthused by the idea so that's that afaic.

Which is why I said I'm more worried about the company's side than madshi's. I've got a lot of respect and gratitude for him.

SamuriHL · 1st July 2021, 00:35

Personally I don't worry so much about what's to come. I look at what I have today. Sure, the beta could expire and leave us in a bind where we have to scramble for a solution. Really the solution to that is to go back to 113 (or 112b if you need smooth motion) and live with that. But that's not where we are today. Today madshi seems committed to at least releasing betas before the next expiration period. That's reasonable. That could change by the time 134 expires. At that point, each of us has a choice to make. I don't have the talent and time to write my own video renderer. Very few do. So I live with the constraints of the video renderer that gives me what I consider the best quality for my environment. At the end of the day, that's all we can do.

ryrynz · 1st July 2021, 05:11

TV upscalers are getting more and more advanced almost each generation. I think we're almost at a point where we can just set the content to its native res and let the hardware do the rest.

huhn · 1st July 2021, 06:57

my xh90 uses bilinear so i guess there is still some space for improvements

jkauff · 1st July 2021, 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryrynz

TV upscalers are getting more and more advanced almost each generation. I think we're almost at a point where we can just set the content to its native res and let the hardware do the rest.

You may be right in the case of upscaling 1920x1080 to 3840x2160. However, I doubt much effort is being spent to improve upscaling 480p video to 3840x2160, which madVR can do very, very well with the right settings. I have lots of 480p movies that never made it to Blu-ray, so this is very important to me (and probably many other madVR users).

ryrynz · 1st July 2021, 12:33

Based on a review I saw it looks like Sony is the king of upscaling at this resolution.. I do wish there was a smooth motion frame blending option in hardware what with 120Hz now filtering down the chain.. C1/CX owners how does your motion options at lowest/closest to 100% frame blending look compared to madVR's Smooth Motion? Are we almost there near MadVR quality yet?

huhn · 1st July 2021, 12:38

i have a sony Tv here and it is really bilinear with 120 hz this is not a joke well maybe from sony.

the 60 HZ 1080->2160 is decent but far from a really good scaler.

mclingo · 1st July 2021, 17:15

i'm with SamuriHL, i think we'll see V1.0 at some point, I think MADSHI would understand the massive disappointment to us all for all our support if we dont see this, most of us are also happy to pay for it should that be the only option.

We'll just have to see what happens and continue to enjoy what we have, and what we've had for years completely free of charge

oldpainlesskodi · 1st July 2021, 17:34

^ What he said.

SoySauceWDF · 2nd July 2021, 01:23

I've got a weird issue using madvr that's been happening for a while. If I pause or sometimes randomly during playback, the render queue drops to 3-4/8 and I start getting dropped frames. It fills up if I backup a little bit and start playing again. I've messed with queue sizes, vsync, present frames in advance, etc, almost every setting I could think of.
Running windowed with D3D11, output in sdr bt.2020 and 10 bit, display set to 12 bit. Happened on both my 2080 ti and 3090, latest drivers. Wondering if its an issue with nvidia outputting 12 bit?

ryrynz · 2nd July 2021, 02:58

Well the easiest way to test is by simply outputting to 8-Bit instead yeah?
No there's no problems with outputting 12-bit with your GPU, if there was you would've seen a post about it.
If it's randomly dropping the queue down it's either an app that's interfering with it or it's your config in which case, reset, revert, restore etc.

SoySauceWDF · 2nd July 2021, 03:12

It seems to stop doing in when its set to D3D9 but I'd like to run D3D11 so I can output 12 bit. Does it using DXVA2 copyback as well. I've done multiple windows clean installs and used the default settings and have tested multiple settings. Don't know what app could be interfering, any common ones? Kind of a head scratcher

ryrynz · 2nd July 2021, 08:19

Would recommend booting without anything programs loading in startup and also changing you power profiles with your graphics card and PC just to test that the system isn't moving into lower power states for whatever reason. Short of that I really don't know, but I would be logging everything I can in the system to figure out what's triggering it. Might be a tough one to nail down.

tp4tissue · 2nd July 2021, 14:00

We're all very confident Madvr as a paid software pack will have a wide market.

As a $2000-3000 device, It's a tough sell.

Upscaling just isn't that important.

Tonemapping, we're getting brighter and better devices every year that do their own tonemapping, this solution is better overall as the devices are aware of the impact of its own ABL. Once we hit a steady 1000 nit on devices, which is already possible just too expensive on LMCL, tonemapping itself becomes niche. Those 4000nit dolby pulsars arn't getting that much use, The panasonic 1000nit lmcl builds are much more widely used grading monitors.

3DLut, I love madvr's implementation to death, but high end TVs support this.

Where is the niche for Envy. The Sony/Epson, all of their expensive projector units will also improve on internal tonemapping year over year.

_Projectors_ in general going the way of the dodo.
_Oleds_ getting BIGGER and CHEAPER all the time.
_LCDs_ Already hitting 1500nits
_LMCL_ Most promising short term solution @ ~500nits
_Samsung QNED_ Self Emmisive. Spanks Oled in sustained output, <in active development, allegedly screen burn proof.>

Madvr's PRIMARY societal role has been to leverage the average ghetto boxes of the PC-masses and turning them into very capable, high-Quality video players.

Going the ENVY route, madshi is taking a path away from his BIGGEST FAN BASE, the people MOST LIKELY and WILLING to PAY HIM MONEY.

Compared to Madvr's existing success reaching the eyes and imagination of world wide active users, Envy is going from an ocean to a drop.

Then there's the point of sale dilemmas. It usually takes a salesmen to sell a $3000 box. These guys take a cut, you have consumer education, friction upon friction.

Meanwhile, we the madvr Fanbase, madshi doesn't have to prove anything to us, we know this stuff is legit, Take my money, we want m0ar madvr.

I even setup madvr for my grandma. That's how much koolaid I am downing. .

tp4tissue · 2nd July 2021, 14:17

@ Soysaucewdf,

You have to TEST 10 bit VISUALLY, don't just turn it on and assume it works, it may not work, it may actually be worse (Some LG oleds).

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...29#post1928929

SoySauceWDF · 2nd July 2021, 16:17

I've tested it on my Epson 5050UB and 10/12 bit works fine, at least to my eyes. I watched a movie in Fullscreen Exclusive last night and it didn't have any render queue issues, so might be a window overlay problem with windows/nvidia/something else. Just had 2 presentation glitches at the very start but was smooth from then on so might just stick with FSE

30th June 2021, 19:49	#61641 \| Link
SamuriHL Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 5,351	I think that's a fair assessment of the current status. It doesn't really differ much from what I was saying. Right now we're getting some tone mapping features (and they are quite good for the record) because of the improvements being made to Envy. I agree that new features, especially when it comes to the nVidia specific features planned, aren't necessarily likely to see the light of day on a PC release. At least not without a significant model change (i.e. a paid for version which is NOT in the cards yet so is really off the table for discussion). So I'm not disagreeing with you. I think once tone mapping is finished up, he'll likely release a stable version which could end up being a sort of "last hurrah" depending on Envy is doing at that point. And as long as it continues to work, I'm ok with where it's at. If someone manages to develop something better suited to the PC, then we'll have to evaluate our options at that point. I'm a "best tool for the job that I can afford" kind of guy. Right now, that's madvr. Going forward, I don't have a crystal ball. __________________ HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED

1st July 2021, 00:35	#61646 \| Link
SamuriHL Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 5,351	Personally I don't worry so much about what's to come. I look at what I have today. Sure, the beta could expire and leave us in a bind where we have to scramble for a solution. Really the solution to that is to go back to 113 (or 112b if you need smooth motion) and live with that. But that's not where we are today. Today madshi seems committed to at least releasing betas before the next expiration period. That's reasonable. That could change by the time 134 expires. At that point, each of us has a choice to make. I don't have the talent and time to write my own video renderer. Very few do. So I live with the constraints of the video renderer that gives me what I consider the best quality for my environment. At the end of the day, that's all we can do. __________________ HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED

1st July 2021, 17:15	#61652 \| Link
mclingo Registered User Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,348	i'm with SamuriHL, i think we'll see V1.0 at some point, I think MADSHI would understand the massive disappointment to us all for all our support if we dont see this, most of us are also happy to pay for it should that be the only option. We'll just have to see what happens and continue to enjoy what we have, and what we've had for years completely free of charge __________________ LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions

1st July 2021, 17:34	#61653 \| Link
oldpainlesskodi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 366	^ What he said. __________________ LG OLED55BX6LB, Zidoo Z1000 Pro, Yamaha RX-A3060, Polk Signature Fronts & Centre, Wharfedale D300 Atmos surrounds, Polk Signature HTS 10 Sub, DSPeaker Antimode 8033 Cinema

2nd July 2021, 14:00	#61658 \| Link
tp4tissue Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 713	We're all very confident Madvr as a paid software pack will have a wide market. As a $2000-3000 device, It's a tough sell. Upscaling just isn't that important. Tonemapping, we're getting brighter and better devices every year that do their own tonemapping, this solution is better overall as the devices are aware of the impact of its own ABL. Once we hit a steady 1000 nit on devices, which is already possible just too expensive on LMCL, tonemapping itself becomes niche. Those 4000nit dolby pulsars arn't getting that much use, The panasonic 1000nit lmcl builds are much more widely used grading monitors. 3DLut, I love madvr's implementation to death, but high end TVs support this. Where is the niche for Envy. The Sony/Epson, all of their expensive projector units will also improve on internal tonemapping year over year. _Projectors_ in general going the way of the dodo. _Oleds_ getting BIGGER and CHEAPER all the time. _LCDs_ Already hitting 1500nits _LMCL_ Most promising short term solution @ ~500nits _Samsung QNED_ Self Emmisive. Spanks Oled in sustained output, <in active development, allegedly screen burn proof.> Madvr's PRIMARY societal role has been to leverage the average ghetto boxes of the PC-masses and turning them into very capable, high-Quality video players. Going the ENVY route, madshi is taking a path away from his BIGGEST FAN BASE, the people MOST LIKELY and WILLING to PAY HIM MONEY. Compared to Madvr's existing success reaching the eyes and imagination of world wide active users, Envy is going from an ocean to a drop. Then there's the point of sale dilemmas. It usually takes a salesmen to sell a $3000 box. These guys take a cut, you have consumer education, friction upon friction. Meanwhile, we the madvr Fanbase, madshi doesn't have to prove anything to us, we know this stuff is legit, Take my money, we want m0ar madvr. I even setup madvr for my grandma. That's how much koolaid I am downing. . __________________ Ghetto \| 2500k 5Ghz Last edited by tp4tissue; 2nd July 2021 at 14:43.

30th June 2021, 21:47	#61642 \| Link
ashlar42 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 656	While I am happy madshi managed to turn his passion into a business, I would greatly appreciate more clarity, as far as madVR roadmap is concerned. As things stand, I'm left wondering if the Envy company is getting free beta testing, to later pull the plug and say "buy an Envy". And this more for the company's side than madshi personally. I strongly hope to be wrong.

30th June 2021, 22:40	#61644 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	Remember it's not even his call to make with updates and his partner/partners are less than enthused by the idea so that's that afaic.

1st July 2021, 05:11	#61647 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	TV upscalers are getting more and more advanced almost each generation. I think we're almost at a point where we can just set the content to its native res and let the hardware do the rest.

1st July 2021, 06:57	#61648 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	my xh90 uses bilinear so i guess there is still some space for improvements

1st July 2021, 12:33	#61650 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	Based on a review I saw it looks like Sony is the king of upscaling at this resolution.. I do wish there was a smooth motion frame blending option in hardware what with 120Hz now filtering down the chain.. C1/CX owners how does your motion options at lowest/closest to 100% frame blending look compared to madVR's Smooth Motion? Are we almost there near MadVR quality yet?

1st July 2021, 12:38	#61651 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,926	i have a sony Tv here and it is really bilinear with 120 hz this is not a joke well maybe from sony. the 60 HZ 1080->2160 is decent but far from a really good scaler.

2nd July 2021, 01:23	#61654 \| Link
SoySauceWDF Registered User Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 8	I've got a weird issue using madvr that's been happening for a while. If I pause or sometimes randomly during playback, the render queue drops to 3-4/8 and I start getting dropped frames. It fills up if I backup a little bit and start playing again. I've messed with queue sizes, vsync, present frames in advance, etc, almost every setting I could think of. Running windowed with D3D11, output in sdr bt.2020 and 10 bit, display set to 12 bit. Happened on both my 2080 ti and 3090, latest drivers. Wondering if its an issue with nvidia outputting 12 bit?

2nd July 2021, 02:58	#61655 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	Well the easiest way to test is by simply outputting to 8-Bit instead yeah? No there's no problems with outputting 12-bit with your GPU, if there was you would've seen a post about it. If it's randomly dropping the queue down it's either an app that's interfering with it or it's your config in which case, reset, revert, restore etc.

2nd July 2021, 03:12	#61656 \| Link
SoySauceWDF Registered User Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 8	It seems to stop doing in when its set to D3D9 but I'd like to run D3D11 so I can output 12 bit. Does it using DXVA2 copyback as well. I've done multiple windows clean installs and used the default settings and have tested multiple settings. Don't know what app could be interfering, any common ones? Kind of a head scratcher

2nd July 2021, 08:19	#61657 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	Would recommend booting without anything programs loading in startup and also changing you power profiles with your graphics card and PC just to test that the system isn't moving into lower power states for whatever reason. Short of that I really don't know, but I would be logging everything I can in the system to figure out what's triggering it. Might be a tough one to nail down.

2nd July 2021, 14:17	#61659 \| Link
tp4tissue Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 713	@ Soysaucewdf, You have to TEST 10 bit VISUALLY, don't just turn it on and assume it works, it may not work, it may actually be worse (Some LG oleds). https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...29#post1928929 __________________ Ghetto \| 2500k 5Ghz

2nd July 2021, 16:17	#61660 \| Link
SoySauceWDF Registered User Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 8	I've tested it on my Epson 5050UB and 10/12 bit works fine, at least to my eyes. I watched a movie in Fullscreen Exclusive last night and it didn't have any render queue issues, so might be a window overlay problem with windows/nvidia/something else. Just had 2 presentation glitches at the very start but was smooth from then on so might just stick with FSE