Scenarist BD MUX setting question, BDROM vs BD-RE v3?

[thegame]

Hi Everyone,
Just as the title says, I am curious which setting I should use here, I can't seem to find any info when I use google on this, I am curious what are the actual differences between these to settings(BDROM vs BD-RE v3) and what are the pros and cons for each, I have been using BDROM and they play fine in my Sony & Panasonic BD players and also play fine on a Fat & Slim PS3(I did delete the Scenarist BD created AACS folder) but just not sure if they will play on other make players fine, so hopefully the kind members here can enlighten me on this.

Thanks in advance for any and all information on this.

ps. I am looking for the best all around compatibility between all BD players and PS3's.

[mp3dom]

I don't know the in-depth differences. As a general rule, BDROM is mandatory for BD replication since it create AACS folder ready to be signed by the keys and uses encrypted sectors by defaults. You can ask directly to Sonic support if you want an in-depth explanation (I'm assuming you have a legit copy of Scenarist so you've a technical support from Sonic itself). BDROM muxing without AACS folders but with encrypted sectors is not 100% compatible. Some Samsung players refuses to play it (don't know if newer firmwares fixed it).

[thegame]

Thanks for that info, so what is the BD-RE v3 option? is this strictly for testing using blank BD-RE's and bypasses all encryption but still has the same compatibility as BDROM on players and PS3's?

"BDROM muxing without AACS folders but with encrypted sectors is not 100% compatible" I have no encrypted sectors, it is off.

[mp3dom]

I think it's an alternative replication method that uses BD-RE rather than CMF (something similar to DDP for dvds)

[rik1138]

Originally Posted by mp3dom

(I'm assuming you have a legit copy of Scenarist so you've a technical support from Sonic itself).

Actually, anyone that DOES have a legit copy of Scenarist knows the support from Sonic is optional, and costs money. Buying the software comes with one year of support (so back when it was first released, it could be assumed everyone could contact Sonic). After that you have pay a fair amount of money to continue getting support... Granted, this is also the only way to get software upgrades as well, so if you are running the latest software you should have the support as well... But just because someone has the software, you can't assume they can even log into the Sonic support site.

The BD-RE option is just that, it's meant for creating an image that can be burned to a BD-R(E) for testing. This was used before Scenarist had the option of turning encryption off with the CPS editor, and they've just left it in there. If you select BD-RE, you get an unencrypted layout that can be burned to a disc. You don't have to remember to turn the encryption back on before replication this way either.

As for making it 100% compatible with all players, that's not possible. Some players simply won't BD-RE discs at all, so those are automatically out (very few, and think they are all 1st gen players). I think there's one or two players that wouldn't play _any_ BD-R that didn't have the AACS folder there (even if it was just an empty folder, it HAD to be there). There's a couple of other players that if they see an AACS folder, and the disc is not encrypted, it won't play. You have to remove the AACS folder to make a BD-R work on these (but now it won't play on the previous players I mentioned).

If you want guaranteed player compatibility, you have to replicate real discs. Granted, most of the players with these issues are slightly older, and it's possible that firmware updates have corrected these problems (assuming the manufacturers consider them problems). In the last few years I have not encountered a problem with a player by including or not including the AACS folder on an unencrypted disc... I use about 15 different players from all manufacturers and ages (some are pre-BD Live) practically daily for various testing, and they all play fine. There's a couple of companies in LA that do comprehensive player compatibility (more for BD Java code and such), and I haven't seen a 'failed to load disc' error related to the AACS folder at all, and they test on 30-40 players at least, even with different versions of the firmware.

Basically, you want unencrypted video (either turn it off in the CPS editor, or use the BD-RE layout option). Including or not including the AACS folder isn't going to affect your overall player compatibility all that much. If your final disc plays in a PS3, it's probably about as compatible as it's going to get (PS3 and other Sony players seem to be some of the most anal about the disc structure.)

[thegame]

Thank you very much for all that info, very interesting read.

[Ghitulescu]

Originally Posted by rik1138

Actually, anyone that DOES have a legit copy of Scenarist knows the support from Sonic is optional, and costs money. Buying the software comes with one year of support (so back when it was first released, it could be assumed everyone could contact Sonic). After that you have pay a fair amount of money to continue getting support.

Well, I assume one didn't pay for Scenarist to do only one job. And after 1 year of work in a [semi]professional environment, most Scenarist peculiarities are more or less sorted out, one has already lots of projects behind and answers from the hotline. AFAIK, some 10-15 years ago, depending on the package, everyone buying Scenarist in a full package (SW+HW) got a training, too. I was recently told this is however no longer the case.

And people that do BD authoring, and afford Scenarist, also have a copy of the specs (or at least should have), because the manual does not replace them (it may not legally replace them), at a fraction of its price (they "borrow" them actually).

[rik1138]

Originally Posted by Ghitulescu

Well, I assume one didn't pay for Scenarist to do only one job. And after 1 year of work in a [semi]professional environment, most Scenarist peculiarities are more or less sorted out, one has already lots of projects behind and answers from the hotline. AFAIK, some 10-15 years ago, depending on the package, everyone buying Scenarist in a full package (SW+HW) got a training, too. I was recently told this is however no longer the case.

Scenarist hasn't offered any kind of live training with the purchase of the software since Sonic took it over. That was Daikin that did that (which would have been about 12-15 years ago... the fact that you mention +HW shows how out of date that information is. Scenarist hasn't required special hardware since it left the SGI platform. A video card for emulation is all the DVD version would come with for PCs.). Sonic has occasionally offered training at an extra cost, and they had beta programs with the HD DVD and Blu-ray software that you could buy your way into that included training and classes on using the software prior to it's release. That was just to get people up to speed on using it when the formats launched. Once the software left beta and was available for purchase, any training was extra. You also had to be in LA to get the training (on the US side at least, not sure how the foreign markets handled it).

And, yes, Scenarist would sometimes be purchased for one job, especially the Blu-ray version. Sometimes that one job will cover the cost, in other cases there's the hope that more jobs will follow (which is not always guaranteed), but being able to say you have Scenarist is good selling point for getting work. And if you are doing simple enough work, you never need to contact Sonic, so you may go a year before even needing help... There's also the frequent case of a license migrating around from one company to another for various reasons (company buyouts, companies selling them off, etc).

The annual support costs thousands of dollars per license, any company, even a huge successful one, will evaluate whether that's worth having or not. And, you have to pay it retroactively if you decide to get it later. If you skip two years of support, and suddenly need it, Sonic requires you to pay for the two years you skipped plus the current year. That will immediately turn off any company to buying it if they aren't keeping it up to date.

Originally Posted by Ghitulescu

And people that do BD authoring, and afford Scenarist, also have a copy of the specs (or at least should have), because the manual does not replace them (it may not legally replace them), at a fraction of its price (they "borrow" them actually).

That is not entirely accurate. Very few facilities have the Blu-ray spec books (I'm sure the major ones do, but certainly not every facility that has Scenarist). The spec books are not designed to be used as a manual or even a programming guide, they are simply the specs the final disc image has to follow. Have you ever tried reading them? Most people that do something as 'simple' as authoring wouldn't even be able to follow them, they are extremely technical. The Sonic manual is not meant to even try to replace the specs, it's a manual telling you how to use the software. The spec books, for example, would not provide even the tiniest piece of useful information that could answer the question being posed in this thread.

One thing you fail to realize is the sheer cost of all of this stuff... Scenarist costs somewhere in the range $9000-10,000 I think (it was $17,500 back in beginning). The annual support is $5000 per year, per license. It costs nearly $10,000 to get the spec books... I've been doing DVD work for 10 years and have never even opened the DVD spec. I've been doing Blu-ray since before the format was released to the public, and I've only had a desire to read the spec twice, and that was just because I overly curious about the details of the format (and I seem to enjoy the punishment of trying to read the thing). For my actual work, I have NEVER needed to use the spec, and employers know this. I actually advised my previous employer against buying the spec books since it wouldn't have helped us with the work we had, despite the geek side of me wanting to see them (but we did keep the Sonic support up to date, and yes, they know me by name now... ). Sonic has the spec, they write their software to follow the spec. Their costumers don't need it to use their software.

[mp3dom]

Originally Posted by rik1138

You also had to be in LA to get the training (on the US side at least, not sure how the foreign markets handled it).

They made live-streaming of the training.

The annual support costs thousands of dollars per license, any company, even a huge successful one, will evaluate whether that's worth having or not.

The annual cost is 10% of the software price per year.

And, you have to pay it retroactively if you decide to get it later. If you skip two years of support, and suddenly need it, Sonic requires you to pay for the two years you skipped plus the current year.

No, you have to renew the soniccare and pay the current year (this exactly happends to me)

The annual support is $5000 per year, per license.

If the actual cost of Scenarist is 15.000$ you need to pay 1500$ for a year support (10% of its cost).

Apart from all this discussion, the question made by 'thegame' is completely covered in the Sonic KnowledgeBase which is a free access download from your SonicCare account. The KB PDF that explain the procedure to burn BD playable on STB or PS3 was created during version 4.5 (where you need to manually open the project in notepad and change the value of CopyPermissionIndicator) and later updated to 5.x when CPS editor was made available) so it was made more than 2 years ago.

[Ghitulescu]

Originally Posted by rik1138

Scenarist hasn't offered any kind of live training with the purchase of the software since Sonic took it over. That was Daikin that did that (which would have been about 12-15 years ago... the fact that you mention +HW shows how out of date that information is. Scenarist hasn't required special hardware since it left the SGI platform.

This was surely done THAT TIME, we bought the SGI platform and got training, too. It was the good ole times of the DVD and no "consumer" applications were available.

Originally Posted by rik1138

That is not entirely accurate. Very few facilities have the Blu-ray spec books (I'm sure the major ones do, but certainly not every facility that has Scenarist). The spec books are not designed to be used as a manual or even a programming guide, they are simply the specs the final disc image has to follow. Have you ever tried reading them? Most people that do something as 'simple' as authoring wouldn't even be able to follow them, they are extremely technical. The Sonic manual is not meant to even try to replace the specs, it's a manual telling you how to use the software. The spec books, for example, would not provide even the tiniest piece of useful information that could answer the question being posed in this thread.

One thing you fail to realize is the sheer cost of all of this stuff... Scenarist costs somewhere in the range $9000-10,000 I think (it was $17,500 back in beginning). The annual support is $5000 per year, per license. It costs nearly $10,000 to get the spec books... I've been doing DVD work for 10 years and have never even opened the DVD spec. I've been doing Blu-ray since before the format was released to the public, and I've only had a desire to read the spec twice, and that was just because I overly curious about the details of the format (and I seem to enjoy the punishment of trying to read the thing). For my actual work, I have NEVER needed to use the spec, and employers know this. I actually advised my previous employer against buying the spec books since it wouldn't have helped us with the work we had, despite the geek side of me wanting to see them (but we did keep the Sonic support up to date, and yes, they know me by name now... ). Sonic has the spec, they write their software to follow the spec. Their costumers don't need it to use their software.

That's correct. I haven't seen the BD/DVD specs, however I've seen parts thereof and many other standards, more or less confidential. You're correct in saying that one doesn't need to know how a petrol engine works to drive the car, however, it is necessary to know it if he's in the business of designing a car. Of course one can hide the implementation details behind a nice GUI, yet without deep knowledge of DVD details, one will never achieve to master a DVD/BD in Scenarist beyond what eg NeroVision can do. When we got that training (which was, as you said, Scenarist-oriented), people that knew a bit about the DVD understood both the manual and the examples faster and better than the others. And time is money for everyone, especially for companies that hire people to do a job (or consultants by the hour).

I've left that company some 12 years ago and my knowledge of Scenarist remained at that level, but I think the concept stayed unmodified (I've read the PDF, too).

[rik1138]

Originally Posted by mp3dom

If the actual cost of Scenarist is 15.000$ you need to pay 1500$ for a year support (10% of its cost).

Just curious, what country are you in? I've been quoted much less for the software, but much more for the annual support... That was about 8 months ago I think, in the US...

[mp3dom]

Originally Posted by rik1138

Just curious, what country are you in? I've been quoted much less for the software, but much more for the annual support... That was about 8 months ago I think, in the US...

Italy, we've spent (if I remember correctly) a bit more than 20.000$ for 'Pro' package (Scenarist BD Pro, Scenarist BD-J, QC, Designer) + Lemony Pro Subtitler.

[rik1138]

It's possible the pricing structures are a little different in other countries (I know support is handled differently as well)... We got that Pro package as well, with a discount for what we paid to be in the beta program, so the price was probably similar... Our annual support cost might be higher because I think it included the DVD authoring as well, not sure how they priced it out...

But either way, it's not really cheap, and any expense over a few hundred dollars has to be approved by management, who's job always seems to be NOT spending money... So it's an easy thing to veto if they don't think it's really worth it.