New Quantization Matrices - EQM V3 series (last update: 04/02/2005 - V3ULR)

[PiXuS]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Try not to get yourself bogged down with pixel to line conversions!

Sooner or later the digital to analogue (PAL/NTSC CRT display) element of the image chain will be gone and all we'll be left with is pixels!

Is that Newspeak you are trying to impose on us?

Do you have the new version of XviD-1.1.-127-13102004 and more importantly, its DSdec filter installed. If you have, then try playing these "pixel perfect" 720x576 and 720x480 anamorhpic encodes.

They have been generated using my calculations and the same theory apply to cropped encodes!

They've also been tested on Mpeg4/DVD stand-alone players that support the playback of anamorphic .AVI files.


Cheers

I don't have any beta versions of XviD. I am using the latest stable build from Koepi (1.0.2). I downloaded your 16:9 NTSC "TestCard" and put the AVI in a Matroska container. I created two files.. one with a resolution of 875x480 (1.823) and one with a resolution of 853x480 (1.777).

The 1.777 version appeared to be the correct one. Though, I will refer you to this thread. From all I read on this wonderful subject, if the DVD was well mastered, you should follow the ITU standard and use a PAR of 1.823. If the DVD wasn't well done, use a PAR of 1.777. Geez... if you read the thread, you will notice even len0x seems to change is mind about following the ITU standard as often as he changes underwear.

So, that being said, I guess it all boils down to a case by case affair. Do a preview @ 1.777, then @ 1.823, find something which should be round and decide what seems correct.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Okay play the files in a software player that supports AR signalling detection by default, such as VLC media player or Nero's ShowTime player.

Why did you feel the need no mux my Mpeg4 streams into the MKV container and alter their AR... this is just asking for trouble!

And by the way, if you want your anamorphic Mpeg4 streams to play back at the correct AR in either AVI or MKV container, replace your XviD.ax file with this one.


Cheers

[PiXuS]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Okay play the files in a software player that supports AR signalling detection by default, such as VLC media player or Nero's ShowTime player.

Why did you feel the need no mux my Mpeg4 streams into the MKV container and alter their AR... this is just asking for trouble!

Asking for trouble? Why would you say that? I don't want to take another tangent in our conversation (we already hijacked Sharktooth thread pretty badly ), but I don't understand your point regarding MKV. Try it.. it is very good.

I use MPC and MPC doesn't care about the PAR signalling in the stream so I needed to use MKV so that the PAR signal in the container could be detected and used.

And by the way, if you want your anamorphic Mpeg4 streams to play back at the correct AR in either AVI or MKV container, replace your XviD.ax file with this one.

Well, okay.. thanks.. but.. my system is already pretty clutered as is.


All that being said, I think XiOUS has enough pointers now to forge is own opinion on the subject. And.. btw... if you are afraid you make a mistake in your encode vis-à-vis a given PAR (say 1.777 or 1.823), just make an anamorphic encode. You then will always be able to change the PAR as you wish (even to some weird values). So you can't f*** up your encode for ever..

[ChronoCross]

really the mkv container shouldn't be used unless your dealing with multiple audio/subs. using it purely for the aspect ratio configuration serves no point. getting the aspect ratio to work fully in avi is probably in the long run going to be better. I support mkv for it's capabilities but it should be used for this purpose as a last resort.

[SeeMoreDigital]

PiXuS,

Unfortunately, it seems pretty obvious that you don't require any help in this matter!

This is strange because you asked why your anamorphic encodes don't come out properly... I've given you the answer and provided some anamorphic encodes for you to try!

I also find it strange how you expect to view anamorphic encodes correctly without installing the "all important" and "necessary" Mpeg4 direct-show decoder filter - which I also provided a link to!

Personally, I don't have any problems generating or playing back anamorphic encodes (via software or hardware players). Neither do many other forum members... Can you say the same?


Cheers

[PiXuS]

Originally posted by ChronoCross
really the mkv container shouldn't be used unless your dealing with multiple audio/subs. using it purely for the aspect ratio configuration serves no point. getting the aspect ratio to work fully in avi is probably in the long run going to be better. I support mkv for it's capabilities but it should be used for this purpose as a last resort.

Nah. I use Matroska for 1 avi + 1 ac3 + subs + chapters. I use mkvmerge to do the job of multiplexing everything. The tool is easy to use (especially through the mmg GUI!). I agree, if all I wanted to do was fix the AR, I would actually use the MPEG-4 container. I don't like the idea of using AVI.

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Unfortunately, it seems pretty obvious that you don't require any help in this matter!

This is strange because you asked why your anamorphic encodes don't come out properly... I've given you the answer and provided some anamorphic encodes for you to try!

I also find it strange how you expect to view anamorphic encodes correctly without installing the "all important" and "necessary" Mpeg4 direct-show decoder filter - which I also provided a link to!

Personally, I don't have any problems generating or playing back anamorphic encodes (via software or hardware players). Neither do many other forum members... Can you say the same?

Huh... your tone gives a weird turn to our conversation. I am certainly not going to fight over aspect ratio stuff. (!!) I thought I had made it clear I feel the ITU standard should be followed when a DVD is properly mastered and not if not. You think 16/9 should be used all the time. Fine, I respect that (never thought I would need to explicitly tell a humain being I respect is choice of divisions....arg!)

You say: This is strange because you asked why your anamorphic encodes don't come out properly.... Huh... are you confusing XiOUS with PiXuS? I never really asked for your help...

Anyway... this is too weird. Me afraid, shudering and running away !!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Can one of you re-name yourself to say... Stan

[LoKi128]

Just wanted to post some filesizes from my encodes of The Princess Bride (the softest, noisiest DVD I've ever seen):

@ 720x416

HR - 974,926,523
LR - 815,469,405
ULR - 773,913,937
ULR - 762,522,443 (using Deen then LimitedSharpen)

The first three have no processing except IVTC, Lanczos4 and UnDot. The last one I added Deen and LimitedSharpen before the resize.

The problem with this movie is that since it is so noisy, scenes that show the sky, or some other constant-color background, it seems that the brightness of that area fluctuates, and there is some blocking. The blocking is not so obvious in the HR matrix and very evident in the ULR matrix, as it averages more. To correct the problem i just used UnFilter, Resize to 640 and Undot. Deen was making the already soft image just look like a VHS transfer anyway.

Anyway, that ULR matrix is pretty good! I even made a 1CD encode of The Truman Show at 640 with the full AC3 that looked great! Thanks!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by LoKi128
....The problem with this movie is that since it is so noisy, scenes that show the sky, or some other constant-color background...

You've just reminded me that my DVD of "The Big Blue" also displays these kinds nasty effects...


Cheers

[Sharktooth]

@LoKi128: EQM V3ULR produces blocks when compressibility is really too low. Helping compressibility and removing noise with filters like UnFilter(x,x), UnDot() or RemoveGrain(mode=2) will produce a great looking 1CD backups.
Temporal denoisers like Convolution3d or TemporalCleaner will help a lot with extremely noisy sources.
Keep in mind most DVDs have added noise too and and low-bitrate matrices tends to quantize noise (high-frequencies) with higher coefficients (less details).
That may result in fluctuating blocks in flat or gradient coloured areas. If you want to remove blocks just use a high bitrate matrix (and 2 CDs or more CDs...) or remove as much noise as you can (with filters) but trying to keep the details.
Anyways dont confuse the noise with the film grain...

[Didée]

Originally posted by Sharktooth
Anyways dont confuse the noise with the film grain...

But the encoder will confuse them for sure. And it's the encoder which you want to help in producing a harmonious result.

Lately, I've come across the aiming "kill the noise, keep the grain" several times. But I still wait for an answer, from any of the proposers, to this question:

1. What's the difference, from a filter's or an encoder's point of view, between "noise" and "grain", so that either one shall be able to distinct between them two?

1a. What's the actual benefit of the distinction, which most likely will be very unsure anyways?


From my limited experience, impressing the audience with details on terminology helps the filter very little, and the encoder even less. Try encoding Alien² with "kill the noise, keep the grain". I give an ensurance on having BIG fun

[Teegedeck]

From the encoder's side there isn't really a difference, granted. It is more the viewer's impression that determines which is which. Still, the subjective difference can be quite staggering. A certain amount of 'grain' will usually create the (false) impression of a higher level of detail, while just a bit more 'grain' will seem annoying and hence be called 'noise'. I strongly feel that everything below the personal, subjective 'grain'-threshold should be kept, even if it means using a higher bitrate. My personal threshold of what I perceive as 'pleasant' grain is very low, of course. When I denoise I would not denoise to a perfectly clean picture (I guess you could summ that up as 'kill the noise, keep the grain').

Sure, I could add the noise on playback via ffdshow but it seems nonsensical to me to first remove information from the video by filtering out the noise in order to 'recreate' or better 'invent' a clean picture that wasn't really there in the first place, and afterwards try to attain a 'natural' (as I perceive it) look to it again. Even if this would safe me quite a lot of diskspace/bitrate.

Still, I've got to say I understand fully that others perceive this completely different - people I really respect, like -h for example, preferred to denoise video as much as possible.

Excuse this late-night rant.

Good night.

[Sharktooth]

IMHO noise and film grain are 2 different things.
They're distingushable coz the "dot" diameter is different: grain is "larger" while noise is much "smaller" (but sometimes not too much) and keeps randomly moving every frame.
My ideal filtering is exactly "kill the noise, keep the grain".

[Sharktooth]

IMPORTANT NOTE:
There's a recently discovered bug in Xvid that affects all 1.xx versions with Trellis Quantization.
Some matrices trigger an overflow in trellis causing visible blocking at certain quants. One of them is EQM V3HR (but other matrices were reported as well).
There are 2 workarounds (at least i found those 2 only):
disable Trellis Quantization OR limit the MinQ and MaxQ to 2-31 respectively.

[pwh04]

Just want to say thanks Sharktooth for these cqms. I'm a noob with custom matrices. I'm using bicubic sharp and tomsmocomp with no other filtering and I am very happy with the results.

[Sharktooth]

Thanks for your feedback pwh04

[Sharktooth]

I have updated EQM V3ULR. Any feedback will be appreciated.

[len0x]

Originally posted by Sharktooth
I have updated EQM V3ULR. Any feedback will be appreciated.

What are the changes and expected quality outcome?

[Sharktooth]

Better I-Frame quantization. Ark provided me a clip where I-Frames were blocky, and those blocks were compromising also the next P and B frames.
I think i have fixed it, but some feedback will be appreciated.

[Ark]

I'll try it on the same Matrix encode, same settings, to better viewing of changes