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Old 15th September 2013, 10:16   #1  |  Link
isamu
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Getting smooth 60fps out of SVP with MPC-HC...please help

Hello everyone. This is rather long so please bare with me...

OK here's the deal...

I have completely uninstalled and then freshly re-installed the SVP pack from scratch....including MPC-HC, MadVR, Re-clock, SVP, FFDshow, the whole 9 yards. I also did a clean re-installation of my Nvidia drivers for my GTX 680 4gb. After doing all that, I am pleased to say that I got SVP to load properly with MPC-HC without any errors even with OpenCL activated(YAY!). This is the good news.

However, with that having been said, there are still a couple issues that remain when using SVP. I have been trying for hours to find the a setting to my liking, that delivers a constant and rock solid steady 60fps for my dvds and have failed miserably. I watch mostly anime and I can *hit* 60fps but the framerate drops constantly and I am always bombarded with messages from SVP saying things like "Variable framerate detected. Interlacing is on". And yes I already have "Variable Framerate Repair" turned on.

This is where things get complicated and confusing for me.....

With so many other filters, decoders and whatnot all active at the same time, I'm not sure what settings I need to apply to keep my video at a smooth 60fps. So here are a few questions I'm hoping you can answer for me....

1)In MadVR, should I leave "enable smooth motion frame conversion" checked or unchecked, even when SVP is running? If checked, which of the 3 categories should I check?

2)In LAV Decoder, should Enable Adaptive HW interlacing be checked or unchecked? If checked, then which Output mode should be selected...(film) or (video)? And should I check high quality processing?

3)Ditto for software de-interlacing....should I enable YADIF Interlacing? If so, which output mode?

4)Now that I have SVP loading and active, which External Filters should I be using in MPC-HC? Right now I have LAV Video Decoder, FFDShow Raw Video Filter, and MadVR...in that order. The funny thing is though, upon loading a video, the icons for neither LAV Video Decoder or FFDshow raw filter show up in my task manager, giving me the impression they aren't even activated. Why is that? And yet, FFDshow Video decoder is activated for no reason, even though I did NOT add it as an external filter. Very strange.

5)Avisynth appears to be working but it's very flaky....sometimes having it on crashes MPC but I guess it's OK now since it hasn't crashed in the last few sessions. However, is Avisynth really necessary to achieve smooth video in conjunction with SVP? I don't know what's wrong with Avisynth but most of the time I get a "script invalid" message upon loading a video, whenever it's activated(that's *IF* it doesn't crash MPC first). It appears I need good script for smooth video in avisynth...would someone mind giving me one?

6)I have Re-clock running and installed. Anything particularly important I need to change in its settings? Everything is set to automatic, and hell, even if I change anything it goes back to automatic anyway.

7)Back to SVP.....what are the absolute best settings you'd recommend I use to achieve a steady and consistent 60fps for my particular PC? My specs are:

Windows 7 64bit Ultimate
Intel Core i7 950 OC'ed @ 4.0Ghz
Nvidia EVGA GTX 680 4GB
6GB DDR3 Ram
2TB HDD

I don't know what the hell I'm doing with all these options particularly with SVP. One thing I *have* discovered as of just a few minutes ago however, is that SVP doesn't seem to play nice with FRAPS. Having FRAPS on makes the video very jumpy and "framey". The fps fluctuates big time when fraps is activated. So that begs the question.....is there a framerate counter in either SVP, FFDshow, Re-clock or MPC-HC I can use as a substitute for FRAPS?

Anyway the bottomline is, I like to think I have a fairly beefy PC. All my games including BLOPS 2, Bordrlands 2, GRID 2, etc run at a smooth 60fps and higher. So I see no reason why SVP can't deliver a rock solid 60fps at ALL times, for any video file or dvd when running MPC-HC. To be fair, It appears to be 60fps most of the time when running MPC-HC in a window, but as soon as I enter full screen mode that when frames get dropped and things get a bit choppy here and there.

If anyone can address the above questions and make further suggestions It'd be greatly appreciated.
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Old 15th September 2013, 11:03   #2  |  Link
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It was trying to diagnose problems like this that made me give up on SVP (for now). I can see why you'd want it for anime, however.

Things get complicated when madVR and SVP are both trying to do magical things with the GPU. Of your questions above, I can at least answer one--turn off Smooth Motion in madVR. It uses extra resources and is unnecessary with SVP. You might also want to turn off madVR Full Screen Exclusive mode and let MPC-HC handle full screen. That might help with the dropped frames.

I'll leave the rest for the experts. There are so many settings in both SVP and madVR that it's hard to try all the possible combinations. Have you asked in the SVP forums? The SVP development team seems quite knowledgeable about madVR.
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Old 15th September 2013, 11:29   #3  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu View Post
7)Back to SVP.....what are the absolute best settings you'd recommend I use to achieve a steady and consistent 60fps for my particular PC? My specs are:

Windows 7 64bit Ultimate
Intel Core i7 950 OC'ed @ 4.0Ghz
Nvidia EVGA GTX 680 4GB
6GB DDR3 Ram
2TB HDD

The site has a link (in the FAQs) to a wiki for Watching Anime.

EDIT1: you're already in their forum.

EDIT2: I actually just did a test with a 1080p remux of my Scott Pilgrim VS The World blu-ray and used...
  • ReClock
  • MadVR
  • SVP
  • LAV Video (with Cuda enabled; no deinterlacing, as it's progressive)
  • FFDShow (with AviSynth and RAW video enabled)

And it seems to have played back without any errors.



I always crop + downscale to 800-1280.

Question: What Avisynth version are you using? The one that came with the SVP package?

Maybe you might do better if you upgraded your AVS...
  1. Install AviSynth 2.6.0 Alpha4 [Jan 14th, 2013](IanB)(install over 2.5.8).
  2. Copy/Replace avisynth.dll with 2.6 MT (SEt's build; 2013.03.09). Instructions in linked thread.
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Last edited by Sparktank; 15th September 2013 at 12:31. Reason: though, i still need to test on an interlaced source
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Old 15th September 2013, 12:47   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu View Post
what are the absolute best settings
We don't allow questions like that per forum rule 12. To avoid futures strikes, do not ask what's best.
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Old 15th September 2013, 21:35   #5  |  Link
isamu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparktank View Post

Question: What Avisynth version are you using? The one that came with the SVP package?

Maybe you might do better if you upgraded your AVS...
Yes, I'm using 2.5. The one that came with SVP. I've been told that the newer 2.6 version is too unstable and doesn't play nice with SVP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
There are so many settings in both SVP and madVR that it's hard to try all the possible combinations.
You hit the nail on the head my friend. Lots and lots of variable factors and one could spend days or even weeks getting all the settings right.

It appears I may have figured out how to get a fairly steady fps....seems the upscaling methods in MadVR have a serious effect on SVP and is a resource hog. I was using jinc 3 taps and then I decided to switch everything to nearest neighbor, and now I'm getting pretty much 60fps in fullscreen. Problem is, I don't want to be restricted to nearest neighbor. I want to be able to use jinc 3 taps *AND* achieve a steady 60fps in fullscreen Any other suggestions?

Also, can someone *please* suggest a framerate display counter other than fraps? I can't tell what frames I'm getting unless I use fraps or an alternative.



*edit*: Hmm, video is now choppy again even with nearest neighbor on madvr upscale and no fraps. WTF
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Old 15th September 2013, 23:02   #6  |  Link
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OK two things...

1)I have come to the conclusion that MadVR is a serious resource hog and is the main culprit for not getting 60fps with SVP. If I change MPC-HC's output renderer to EVR, I get over 75fps and sometimes over 100fps, with drops under 60fps every so often but not near much as with MADVR on. Isn't there a way to use, and max out MadVR's settings and still use SVP, especially with the PC specs I'm working with?

2)I've noticed something very interesting....LAV Video Encoder does not work or activate when using SVP. SVP requires that you set FFDShow Video encoder to a either high merit or to "preferred", in order for it to activate SVP properly. But once you do that, LAV becomes inactive and disengages from working with MPC-HC. You can test see this for sure by right clicking MPC, select filters and you'll see LAV is not there.

Isn't there a way to use both with MPC simultaneously? How important is using LAV to MPC overall?
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Old 15th September 2013, 23:19   #7  |  Link
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1. MadVR is heavy for old or low end gpus especially at 60fps. A gpu upgrade is probably the only thing will allow you to use svp+madvr.

2. ffdshow is needed for the avisynth interface. You chould disable ffdshow decoding of everything but raw video and decode with lav or in mpc set ffdshow raw filter to prefer above lav video. Otherwise potplayer has it's own avisynth interface which eliminates the ffdshow requirement.
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Last edited by turbojet; 15th September 2013 at 23:23.
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Old 16th September 2013, 00:30   #8  |  Link
isamu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbojet View Post
1. MadVR is heavy for old or low end gpus especially at 60fps. A gpu upgrade is probably the only thing will allow you to use svp+madvr.

2. ffdshow is needed for the avisynth interface. You chould disable ffdshow decoding of everything but raw video and decode with lav or in mpc set ffdshow raw filter to prefer above lav video. Otherwise potplayer has it's own avisynth interface which eliminates the ffdshow requirement.
Thanks. Very interesting. The reason I'd like to keep FFDshow in the loop, is because of its awesome array of features and tweaks. The resize and sharpen options for example are two elements of it that I enjoy messing around with.

Furthermore, speaking of the Resize option in FFDShow, I've noticed that upon activating it, SVP goes haywire and starts making the MPC window flip back and forth between bigger and smaller rapidly. Why is it doing that?
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Old 16th September 2013, 00:54   #9  |  Link
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I would expect a GTX 680 4GB to be plenty for MadVR at pretty much any setting. To check why MadVR doesn't work as well as it should you could try increasing buffer sizes and make sure smooth motion is off. Also try without OpenCL, OpenCL would compete with MadVR for time on the GPU.

I max out an overclocked Titan trying to watch 4k 60 fps video using Catmull-Rom AR+LL downscaling to 2560x1440 with smooth motion on. With smooth motion off I don't get dropped frames but still have very high GPU usage.

Is your video card staying in low power (low clock speed) mode? GPU-Z is useful for finding out what your video card is doing.

(Current) SVP will never be completely artifact free.
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Old 16th September 2013, 02:31   #10  |  Link
Sparktank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu View Post
I've been told that the newer 2.6 version is too unstable and doesn't play nice with SVP.
It isn't at all for me.
I've been using the 2.6a4 with SEt's MT build and it plays fine.

I just finished watching a few blu-ray remuxes with SVP and had no problems. Just a few memory leaks from changing the settings a lot to find a viewing experience I liked. Once I stopped playing with the settings during playback, the movies were ideal (to me) with what I could achieve on my system.

----

I don't have a strong enough system to use MadVR.
I can get some decent settings out of it. I can't remember what I did, but I had to drop a lot of stuff down to get exclusive mode to work nicely. I think I had the up/down scalers kept as default, but with the minimum taps.
With SVP, I had to drop all video resolution to 800x width.

I currently use EVR (custom).

---

For resizing, SVP can resize on it's own, but uses BicubicResize to downscale and LanczosResize to upscale.
Not sure how to customize this to use Spline or other for playback. I think you have to edit the "generator.js" to use different resizers.

I wouldn't let FFDShow do more than handle the AVS script SVP needs and possibly brightness/contrast tweaking in the Picture Properties.

----

Make sure "Interface type" is "expert".
You'll get so much more access to much more options, especially when you open up the "Video profiles".

Don't forget to set any crops to get rid of the black bars. You'll see system performance increase (ie, you'll reduce the strain on SVP to allow more settings to be increased). There's a bunch of cropping presets but you can also define custom cropping as well.

-----

I saw a thread on the SVP forum where some people were asking what certain options do and how you can set options to have Less Artifacts VS Smoothness.
I can't find the link now, but it shouldn't be hard to google.
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Old 16th September 2013, 06:50   #11  |  Link
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I didn't see isamu's list of hardware in the OP and agree with Asmodian that GTX680 should handle what you are trying to do without breaking a sweat. If GPU checks out okay, you might want to look and see if one of the CPU cores is maxed, might have to adjust avisynth mt or throw some sorathread functions in.

SVP depends on ffdshow so using avisynth inside potplayer with svp doesn't work but interframe works fine, it uses svpflow just like svp does.
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Last edited by turbojet; 16th September 2013 at 07:17.
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Old 16th September 2013, 19:51   #12  |  Link
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Thanks guys, you guys rock!

Yeah, I've been experimenting with tweaking all kinds of settings using a combination of MPC-HC, FFDShow, MadVR, LAV Decoder, and SVP. I have to say, MADVR can deliver a STUNNING picture depending on the source. I can't tell you how ridiculous Bubblegum Crisis(the *ORIGINAL* ADV release) looks! Almost BD-like in some shots. However, MVR is a serious resource hog and will bring a low end PC rig to its knees on max settings. Ditto SVP to a certain extent.

Right now I'm watching Now and Then, Here and There on dvd and boy, CPM sure did a terrible job with this transfer. Aliasing everywhere and not even MadVR can save it. Interestingly enough I went back to VLC for this show and it actually looks better than on MPC. Why do you guys suppose VLC makes anime look so damn good compared to MPC-HC on some discs? Why does it seemingly do a better job at eliminating aliasing than madvr? Maybe I'm wrong so I'll continue tweaking madvr and ffdshow.
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Old 16th September 2013, 20:43   #13  |  Link
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DVD's may or may not be Interlaced/Telecined, so how each player and decoder handles it will definitely show up in the final results. And perhaps have some impact with MadVR as well.

They (distributors) will generically slum it all under one label on the disc/covers/description: "Interlaced".

You'll have to check yourself whether it's actually interlaced, telecined (soft/hard), or a hybrid of interlaced/tecelcined (soft/hard).
For that, you may have to rip an episode from the disc and do a quick check about what the source actually is.
And then you can set the options in LAV Video more accurately (FILM vs. VIDEO vs YADIF).
Do a quick extraction of a sample for the elementary stream, index and check it with AviSynth/VirtualDub to check the movement between individual frames.

Neuron2 has a very handy FAQ (from his site) about checking if something is Interlaced/pull-down/progressive.
http://neuron2.net/faq.html

From there, the fun really begins.

----

Choosing how you want to deinterlace should have an impact on visual representation of your DVD's.

MPC-HC has the option of decoding MPEG2 internally (using LAV Video in recent versions), so in the options make sure to check the "Internal Filters" section and "Tranform Filters" for the MPEG-2 Video decoder.
I believe those settings are independent from your actual installed LAV Video.
That is, make sure in MPC-HC > Internal Filters > Transform Filters > MPEG-2 > LAV Video > Hardware Acceleration options are configured like your actual LAV Video filter.

That may be partial to why MPC-HC shows video differently than VLC.
Why VLC does a good job on the first run? I don't know, I haven't used it for a long time.
Maybe the default options are to handle interlaced material with utmost scrutiny?
Maybe the default MPEG-2 decoder is nicer than MPC-HC?
You would have to change the settings to "expert" or "advanced" (forget which) to see all the options and find out why.


----

Generally, I'll let LAV Video handle the deinterlacing.
The "Enable Adapative HW Deinteralcing" option (CUDA), set to the 25p/30p (film).
If it doesn't look right, I'll switch to the 50/60 (video).
And then YADIF's options afterward.

I don't have much "interlaced" material on BD, but the few I have are quickly remedied with switching the options.

I barely watch my DVD's (on PC) anymore, but are often quickly fixed with LAV Video options.
I'm too lazy to actually check each "interlaced" movie so just tinkering with LAV Video options is good enough for me.
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Old 19th September 2013, 19:40   #14  |  Link
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Heres my best reply to your questions. Currently using SVP on my Core i7 920 (GTX 295 GPU) and have a working setup thats very consistent, 0 dropped frames, interpolating everything to 60fps.

1) I leave smooth motion disabled as I interpolate to my screens refresh rate
2) I disable HW decoding as I find I can get more solid frame rates by using my cpu to decode, and leaving my gpu to do more SVP stuff.
2+3) I very rarely enable de-interlacing as I find it hard to trust the DVD interlacing flags, but when I do enable it in yadif 25fps mode, because
a) When you send 2xfps (eg 2x25fps = 50fps) material into ffdshow from yadif, it still thinks the input is 25fps, so your FPS calculations in SVP / avisynth scripts will be badly wrong
b) It looks smoother in the end going from 25fps yadif to 60fps, than 50fps to 60fps, even though you really are losing some of the original information.
4) I personally enable add these External Filters, with these settings
XySubFilter - Prefer
LAV Splitter Source - Prefer
LAV Splitter - Prefer
LAV Audio Decoder - Prefer
LAV Video Decoder - Prefer
ffdshow Video Decoder - Block
ffdshow raw video filter - Prefer

I then use ffdshow raw video filter's avisynth settings to manually use Interframe SVP script, rather than the actual SVP, as I don't like some of the things SVP's tray application does (I don't even enable it, I just have the 4 dlls needed in a directory that are referenced in my avisynth script).
5) If you want I can send you the script I use, its basically Interframe slightly modified to get the most out of my particular core i7 920 system.
6) I normally interpolate from 23.976 -> 59.94 (as its less costly than going to 60fps, as its a nice multiple) and I use Reclock to get me to 60.000 so I have the main Reclock tray UI set to
Slave reference clock to audio - Off
Speed: Auto(best) Locked

7) I think the Interframe script is genuinely a very good place to start as those guys always tweak the "Medium" profile to be as high quality as they can achieve. I use a modified version of that as I said, with 2 small tweaks to be able to run 1080p at 60fps but you may not need to make those tweaks on your machine as its a fair bit faster.

Last edited by mark0077; 19th September 2013 at 19:43.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 09:29   #15  |  Link
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I don't usually use madvr+svp mode,i always use evr+svp mode(recommended by svp team)
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Old 23rd September 2013, 12:19   #16  |  Link
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I don't usually use madvr+svp mode,i always use evr+svp mode(recommended by svp team)
Probably because madVR and SVP are fighting for GPU resources.
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Old 23rd September 2013, 23:53   #17  |  Link
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Probably because madVR and SVP are fighting for GPU resources.
Yeah, I'm starting to believe this is indeed the case. I wonder...if someone is looking for the best sharpness filter, if it's OK to leave MadVR out of the equation completely, and simply use EVR + SVP, and then let MPC-HC's own sharpen filters do the sharpening? Also, dumb question but does SVP do any actual upscaling? What's a good upscaling plugin to use with MPC-HC?

Last edited by Guest; 24th September 2013 at 00:57. Reason: rule 12
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Old 24th September 2013, 06:09   #18  |  Link
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Originally Posted by isamu View Post
.....Also, dumb question but does SVP do any actual upscaling? What's a good upscaling plugin to use with MPC-HC?
Then you should pay attention to this:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1498593#post1498593

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Old 24th September 2013, 08:15   #19  |  Link
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60fps takes a lot to decode. Using interframe you can choose to do the same thing SVP does at 30fps making it much easier on the video renderer. Just put the svpflow dll's and interframe.avsi in avisynth\plugins directory and this in ffdshow's avisynth page:
interframe(newnum=30,cores=4, gpu=false)

and check ffdshow source and buffer. GPU reduced by about half with madvr, feel free to set gpu to true if you want.
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Old 24th September 2013, 19:54   #20  |  Link
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Thanks for the tips turbo
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