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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:15   #201  |  Link
chros
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Seriously how can you tolerate that?
I got used to it or I just favor (near) chroma 4:4:4 this much
You can sometimes see the banding/posterisation effect even on human skins (not just on walls/sky) but in the majority of cases I'm not bodered: it's not thaaat bad

But, in the beginning I created a wrong 23p custom timings with madvr (not just the back porch values were changed), it took me for about a week to realize that something was off:
it screwed up the gamma response of the TV badly, resulting in every kind weird things (heavy near black banding, darkened picture, more posterisation). That was baaad.

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Originally Posted by j82k View Post
I just tried pc-mode HDR again a few days ago. Played the UHD of Brightburn, skipped to some dark scene and it looked like some low bitrate TV broadcast.
I haven't noticed anything really bad with it, probably sometimes it was there, or maybe I just got used to it.

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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
You are confused I'm afraid. Your question about what nit setting I used tells me so. You're talking about soulnights measurement modification tool. I am not. His tool is used to dynamically change the measurement file for those doing HDR to SDR. That's not what I want. I create the measurement file with madvr and do not touch it. This is very different then what the dynamic algo guys are doing.
Indeed, I thought about soulnights's tool. In this case it's not even DTM.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:20   #202  |  Link
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More test:

- White windows max nits (compared to rtings's B8 result):
100%: 145
10%: 700-750 (increasing quickly: maybe overheating the meter or display increases brighness?)

- checked how ASND behaves on B8
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Last edited by chros; 23rd August 2019 at 12:22.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:53   #203  |  Link
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Indeed, I thought about soulnights's tool. In this case it's not even DTM.
That's also not accurate to say that it's not dynamic. Madvr is using the measured data for every frame to properly tone map for the max target nit. It's not real time dynamic tone mapping but it is the most accurate because it knows ahead if time the metadata for each frame. I don't need or necessarily want what the live algo or soulnights tool are doing because I'm not trying to compress the SDR range. In fact I'm trying to keep that untouched since I have room above it for the highlights. The straight measurement file untouched does what I want.

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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:58   #204  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Strange it works fine here, even when I switch between passthrough and pixelshader (I haven't noticed this before).
Which player do you use? I use MPC-BE / HC.
I use MPC-BE as well, the WB 20 points just never change unless I use passthrough and check/uncheck "send HDR metadata to display".
Maybe LG ignores the peak nits, maybe madVR should be sending MaxCLL every time the nits change dynamically?

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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Indeed, I don't see any difference between 50 and 200 (not even in numbers in OSD), and there was a huge diff when I used madmeasure78 with SDR TV.
Maybe the bottom scene detection values, or did it get broken?
Essentially I think it just tries to use higher target nits dynamically, and no difference with everything below the peak nits because LG applies its own PQ curve (and gamma, etc).
While with SDR it would also affect the overall brightness.

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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Does "apply dynamic clipping"? I haven't noticed it. Which clip(s) and when?
It should modify the protected 0-100 nits range.
Note that this option is broken since the beginning and madshi didn't fixed it yet, hence the lower 25 value is used. Maybe lowering it helps? 15/10?
It's just something I have noticed playing back other titles, in scenes where the peak nits don't go over 300 nits, using LG's DTM increases overall brightness of everything over 100 nits it seems.
Pretty much like the current "dynamic clipping". The other one (in the madVR optimizer by Soulnight), has an extra algo to only apply on % max pixels to avoid that.
And for very bright scenes, with LG's DTM more highlight detail is resolved, but "dynamic clipping" might cause some clipping (haven't noticed any with 25, but it happens with 100).

Last edited by quietvoid; 23rd August 2019 at 13:03.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 20:02   #205  |  Link
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I got used to it or I just favor (near) chroma 4:4:4 this much
And you're using 12-bit on top of that Doesn't that make the banding even worse? It definitely does on my C7 in both normal and PC modes. If what Stacey Spears claims is right, then PC mode switches the TV into 8-bit only anyway.

I also recently tried PC mode, and while at first things appeared a bit sharper in video content, that could have very well been placebo. I sit about four feet from my 65", and I can't really tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 when watching something. Maybe I could in a side-by side comparison, but that's just not possible.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 20:11   #206  |  Link
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For most live video content that was originally 4:2:0 the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 is very minor even with madVR scaling the chroma.

This changes a lot when viewing content that was originally 4:4:4 or RGB, for that 4:2:2 on my C9 is pretty obvious and unacceptable.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 20:27   #207  |  Link
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Right, so the lack of proper 4:4:4 is not a huge deal, if all you do is watch commercial content. Still would be nice if the next generation of panels finally got past all the bandwidth and processing limitations, now that HDMI 2.1 is here. Come on LG! I wanna buy the C10!!!
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Old 23rd August 2019, 20:45   #208  |  Link
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I'm not upgrading again until at LEAST the C13. LOL
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Old 24th August 2019, 09:51   #209  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
That's also not accurate to say that it's not dynamic. Madvr is using the measured data for every frame to properly tone map for the max target nit.
Thanks, yes, you are right. It was a long time ago for me ...

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Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
I use MPC-BE as well, the WB 20 points just never change unless I use passthrough and check/uncheck "send HDR metadata to display".
Maybe LG ignores the peak nits, maybe madVR should be sending MaxCLL every time the nits change dynamically?
Hmm. Maybe different firmware version of the TV or an AVR in the middle of the chain?

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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
If what Stacey Spears claims is right, then PC mode switches the TV into 8-bit only anyway.
Well, there's a slight difference using "03. Grayscale\04. 10bit test" files of "Mehanik HDR10 test pattern" between 8bit and 10bit (12bit output is set in nvidia CP).
That means processing is not 8bit, but maybe like with chroma 4:4:4, it's not 10bit either I don't know.

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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
And you're using 12-bit on top of that Doesn't that make the banding even worse?
As I stated in this post about PC mode:
- SDR content: there's banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is minimal between the 2)
- HDR10 content: there's heavy (!) banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is clearly visible between the 2)

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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Maybe I could in a side-by side comparison, but that's just not possible.
You don't have to: pause the playback and switch the label between PC and HDMI.
Before that use a higher chroma algo in madvr (e.g. NGU Sharp low at least) not just Bicubic60

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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
I also recently tried PC mode, and while at first things appeared a bit sharper in video content, that could have very well been placebo. I sit about four feet from my 65", and I can't really tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 when watching something.
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
For most live video content that was originally 4:2:0 the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 is very minor even with madVR scaling the chroma.
I *do* notice the difference during normal playback even from normal viewing distance (~3 meters).
My reasoning for using PC mode with HDR10 is this: I see banding/posterisation - let's say - 10% of the times watching regular content, but I see the effect of increased natural sharpness 90% of the times
And you can easily switch the label when you watch SDR or HDR10 content, if you like.
But don't get me wrong, I don't want to poison your minds with this

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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Still would be nice if the next generation of panels finally got past all the bandwidth and processing limitations, now that HDMI 2.1 is here.
Don't wait for that

From one of Ted's write up:
"LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.
The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.
Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.
I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."
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Old 24th August 2019, 10:47   #210  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Well, there's a slight difference using "03. Grayscale\04. 10bit test" files of "Mehanik HDR10 test pattern" between 8bit and 10bit (12bit output is set in nvidia CP).
That means processing is not 8bit, but maybe like with chroma 4:4:4, it's not 10bit either I don't know.
you could show a difference between these using 6 bit so what's your point. that's why dithering exist to fake a bit deep that doesn't exist. the simples form is alternating pattern with for example 1 and 0 which would look like 0.5 ignoring gamma curves and such.

Quote:
Don't wait for that

From one of Ted's write up:
"LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.
The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.
Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.
I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."
sonys can do everything in 4:4:4 even entry level sonys...
and monitors anyway.

BTW. RGB is very useful for UI interfaces because you can alpha blend and such there is a reason computer and computer games use it.
doing colorcorrection and such is very easy even at 16 bit i would even say it is trivial simple quality scaling should cost more.
stuff like motion interpolation and such are processing intensive not the general work of a TV it's not much different from a monitor.
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Old 24th August 2019, 12:55   #211  |  Link
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Strange it works fine here, even when I switch between passthrough and pixelshader (I haven't noticed this before).
This works well, so it's easy to test: just pause the playback and switch back and forth.
Passthrough vs pixelshader (LG's DTM is off):
- pixelshader results just a bit brighter image with titles above 760 nits (e.g. JohnWick@01:04 , Alien@01:24 , Meg@00:07)
- pixelshader results just a bit darker image with titles below 760 nits (e.g. Mockingjay@00:06 , Alita@00:10)

Pixelshader is better with highlights
- Meg:
-- 00:03: sky is a bit whiter, blue leds on the girl's shoe is more vivid; waves/antennas getting more visible with highlight recovery very high
-- 00:15: girl's hair clip
- Godzilla:
-- 00:23: lights above the stove
-- 01:09: light is wither
- Mad Max:
-- 00:05: reflection om the edge of the car
-- 00:52: screw on the wheel looks more shiny
-- 02:15: highlights in the orange sky to the left (that's the biggest difference)

Pixelshader is different (worse?):
- JohnWick:
-- 00:04: blue lights to the left
-- 00:15: blue lights to the right

Notes:
- highlight recovery very high can help 4000's titles and above, it doesn't have any effect below (I've updated the settings picture)
- I haven't checked LG's DTM yet
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Old 24th August 2019, 16:01   #212  |  Link
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Originally Posted by chros View Post
Don't wait for that

From one of Ted's write up:
"LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.
The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.
Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.
I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."
If the C8 internally works with YCbCr and only converts to RGB in the last step that would explain why I got better results outputting YCbCr in SDR pc-mode. Outputting YCbCr would mean additional color conversions happen on the pc side but less color conversions happen inside the TV.

And if the TV does all the internal processing with only 8-bit precision in pc-mode that would also explain the banding. I think madVR does such things in 16 or even 32-bit.
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Old 24th August 2019, 17:00   #213  |  Link
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It would make sense that the C8 would internally use YCbCr because most consumer equipment will be sending that signal to it. Those conversions are ok when they use proper dithering, but, given that we see banding on the C8, it is very possible that either its dithering sucks or is largely non-existent in those conversions. UGH.
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Old 24th August 2019, 19:19   #214  |  Link
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And in the end we'll never know for sure (even the mighty Ted, for whom I have the utmost respect ).
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Old 24th August 2019, 20:53   #215  |  Link
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I still don’t own an OLED display but I’ve honed my Kuro to perfection in all these years. Reading all the caveats and quirks of these displays is kind of scary to be honest.
Banding, bitdepths, pc mode, it all seems really messy.
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Old 24th August 2019, 21:25   #216  |  Link
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the list of issues with an kuro is even longer.
CR at all cost to make it short.
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Old 24th August 2019, 21:45   #217  |  Link
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The benefits of OLED far outweigh any inherent issues, IMO. I can't watch anything on an LCD anymore
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Old 24th August 2019, 22:33   #218  |  Link
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Oh yeah... we bitch and moan about the littlest of things, but if ANYONE of us OLED owners had to go back to any other tech, I'm sure we all would rather have teeth pulled!

Maybe, MAYYYBEEE some of us would go back to Plasma, but even then, I doubt it.

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Old 25th August 2019, 00:07   #219  |  Link
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My only gripe is motion, really. There just isn't a good way to compensate for instant pixel response with sample-and-hold technology. This is where 24 fps really shows its age. The closer you sit, the more obvious the issue becomes. In the other thread I described how I now use madVR's smooth motion to play everything back at 60Hz. This actually works pretty well, but it adds a bit of blur to motion that would otherwise be stuttery on OLEDs (when played back without smooth motion and in its native frame rate). I do prefer it over the stutter, though. Playback at 120Hz should make this even better, when HDMI 2.1 is fully implemented and video cards are available.
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Old 25th August 2019, 00:11   #220  |  Link
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at 120 HZ it would get "worse"(if you want the "ghosting") because you get less blended frames and they are shown shorter letting it look more like native 24 hz.
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