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Old 15th October 2009, 17:28   #10121  |  Link
mark0077
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If people, even dolby or dts can't agree, I don't think you or anyone can say mpc-hc is correct...... It outputs to BACK in both of our cases, so mpc is WRONG!!!! I personally have much more dolby content than dts, and like having speakers set to the side, but the software should handle this mess by detecting what the drivers decision is.

My conclusion is that people shouldn't have to manually do anything, that mpc-hc should send surround where the drivers expose, in our case our soundcards should expose the side. mpc-hc sends to the back (if you use ffdshow you will see input and output all the way shows back).... which is wrong, plain and simple.. What your driver does after that is its own business, but the fact your card sends to the sides in this case isn't enough, the software should send to the right place in the first place.

Sending to back is fine for you, your card sends this to side itself I assume, for others this might not be the case. If the application sends to the correct place originally, then the drivers wouldn't have to do this as an after process.

Conclusion: I agree with you, if using 5.1 speakers, connect your surround speakers to whatever is exposed by your drivers, which in my and your case, this is the sides. BUT mpc-hc sending to back is still wrong, it does send to back and this is not correct for our setups, simple as that like. It doesn't auto detect what is exposed by the driver correctly!!!!!!!! but depending your driver this may or may not have a negative impact. The driver may compensate / upmix from back to side channel or vice versa.

Any mpc-hc developers want to inform us if its mixer tries to auto-detect where to send surround channels? Until then I can only assume it either does try and fails for both my and your drivers, or doesn't try at all in which case we need a more visible option for choosing between side and rear.

Mercury: As an expirement, you could try manually telling mpc-hc (what it should do automatically?) to output to side channels rather than back, and see if you still hear 5.1 surround tests from your side channels.

If you still hear audio from sides, then this confirms your soundcard is taking back from mpc-hc and magically mapping it to the sides (others arn't so fortunate)
If you don't hear audio from sides, I assume your back / side physical connections are swapped.

Either way mpc-hc is 100% wrong in not outputting to side channels in both of our cases.

Last edited by mark0077; 15th October 2009 at 18:00.
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Old 15th October 2009, 18:29   #10122  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
If people, even dolby or dts can't agree, I don't think you or anyone can say mpc-hc is correct...... It outputs to BACK in both of our cases, so mpc is WRONG!!!! I personally have much more dolby content than dts, and like having speakers set to the side, but the software should handle this mess by detecting what the drivers decision is.

My conclusion is that people shouldn't have to manually do anything, that mpc-hc should send surround where the drivers expose, in our case our soundcards should expose the side. mpc-hc sends to the back (if you use ffdshow you will see input and output all the way shows back).... which is wrong, plain and simple.. What your driver does after that is its own business, but the fact your card sends to the sides in this case isn't enough, the software should send to the right place in the first place.

Sending to back is fine for you, your card sends this to side itself I assume, for others this might not be the case. If the application sends to the correct place originally, then the drivers wouldn't have to do this as an after process.

Conclusion: I agree with you, if using 5.1 speakers, connect your surround speakers to whatever is exposed by your drivers, which in my and your case, this is the sides. BUT mpc-hc sending to back is still wrong, it does send to back and this is not correct for our setups, simple as that like. It doesn't auto detect what is exposed by the driver correctly!!!!!!!! but depending your driver this may or may not have a negative impact. The driver may compensate / upmix from back to side channel or vice versa.

Any mpc-hc developers want to inform us if its mixer tries to auto-detect where to send surround channels? Until then I can only assume it either does try and fails for both my and your drivers, or doesn't try at all in which case we need a more visible option for choosing between side and rear.

Mercury: As an expirement, you could try manually telling mpc-hc (what it should do automatically?) to output to side channels rather than back, and see if you still hear 5.1 surround tests from your side channels.

If you still hear audio from sides, then this confirms your soundcard is taking back from mpc-hc and magically mapping it to the sides (others arn't so fortunate)
If you don't hear audio from sides, I assume your back / side physical connections are swapped.

Either way mpc-hc is 100% wrong in not outputting to side channels in both of our cases.
In a 5.1 config remapping to side the surround channels in mpc-ha it's also working aka i hear sound
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Old 15th October 2009, 18:37   #10123  |  Link
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Then the reason you are not having problems is your drivers are sending back input to your sides. For me my driver don't do a great job. Sitting near side right during your truehd test I can faintly hear side left. A side effect of my own drivers attempt to send back from mpc to my sides.

If I send mpc output manually to sides I Hear output perfectly. Do you now agree mpc is auto detecting incorrectly, and should not be sending to back in our case?

Temporarily, until this is all sorted / fixed, if I were you I would use custom channel mapping and manually output to sides, instead of relying on your drivers to do a good job. Maybe they do a good job but I can say it would be driver dependent, my Xonar drivers do a horrible job of mapping / mixing the back output from mpc-hc to the sides. So I don't recommend just letting mpc-hc send back output until this is fixed.

Last edited by mark0077; 15th October 2009 at 18:48.
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Old 15th October 2009, 22:12   #10124  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
Then the reason you are not having problems is your drivers are sending back input to your sides. For me my driver don't do a great job. Sitting near side right during your truehd test I can faintly hear side left. A side effect of my own drivers attempt to send back from mpc to my sides.

If I send mpc output manually to sides I Hear output perfectly. Do you now agree mpc is auto detecting incorrectly, and should not be sending to back in our case?

Temporarily, until this is all sorted / fixed, if I were you I would use custom channel mapping and manually output to sides, instead of relying on your drivers to do a good job. Maybe they do a good job but I can say it would be driver dependent, my Xonar drivers do a horrible job of mapping / mixing the back output from mpc-hc to the sides. So I don't recommend just letting mpc-hc send back output until this is fixed.
Do you understand that this is ONLY when I reduce my speakers config to 5.1 ? if I use my full 7.1 speaker the surround it's out on back ! Do you use the 7.1 config or the 5.1 ?

So in a 5.1 setup all apps TMT POWERDVD WINDVD and MPC-HC are sending the surround channels where the drivers are telling them side or back ! so I don't see any problem !

Also the channels I or you see in MPC-HC's "Enable custom channel mapping " are INPUT channels which results that MPC-HC it's receiving surround back and output to the back or side depending which pin are the drivers exposing for a 5.1 config ! which is also correct.
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Old 15th October 2009, 22:18   #10125  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Mercury_22 View Post
Do you understand that this is ONLY when I reduce my speakers config to 5.1 ? if I use my full 7.1 speaker the surround it's out on back ! Do you use the 7.1 config or the 5.1 ?

So in a 5.1 setup all apps TMT POWERDVD WINDVD and MPC-HC are sending the surround channels where the drivers are telling them side or back ! so I don't see any problem !

Also the channels I or you see in MPC-HC's "Enable custom channel mapping " are INPUT channels which results that MPC-HC it's receiving surround back and output to the back or side depending which pin are the drivers exposing for a 5.1 config ! which is also correct.
What you say doesn't make sense. I have my card setup to use 5.1 yes. When you set yours to 5.1 as you say is readin what drivers expose. In your case they exposed back but you hear audio from sides. Don't you see that's not right lol

even more confusing and incorrect is that your 5.1 surround goes to sides in 5.1 and back in 7.1. config
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Old 15th October 2009, 22:23   #10126  |  Link
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What you say doesn't make sense. I have my card setup to use 5.1 yes. When you set yours to 5.1 as you say is readin what drivers expose. In your case they exposed back but you hear audio from sides. Don't you see that's not right lol

even more confusing and incorrect is that your 5.1 surround goes to sides in 5.1 and back in 7.1. config
No in my case 5.1 expose surround to the side too

Our cards are using the same pins for 5.1 and for 7.1 from what I understand
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Last edited by Mercury_22; 15th October 2009 at 22:27.
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Old 15th October 2009, 22:26   #10127  |  Link
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That contradicts the last post where you saId mpcs mixer sends surround to your backs. As I said this is the same for me but my card mixes this so I hear it on sides

Can you see these apps are visually showing us they are not reading the exposed pins but I know 100% that I and probably you might not realise because our cards are still sending audio to our sides which is masking the problem for others. (I don't get the original channels output to sides though. You might but everyone doesn't). These exposed pins sent being read correctly at all. I see this visually and hear it (just about) audibly.

Anyone know one f the developers that I can speak to regarding this.

Last edited by mark0077; 15th October 2009 at 22:41.
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Old 15th October 2009, 22:42   #10128  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
That contradicts the last post where you saId mpcs mixer sends surround to your backs. As I said this is the same for me but my card mixes this so I hear it on sides

Anyone know one f the developers that I can speak to regarding this.
In a 5.1 config no mater what I choose for the surround channels side or back they are send to the only available option = ActiveSpeakerPositions as it suppose to !
Which in my 5.1 config is side
Let's recap in your case in a 5.1 config you're saying that your drivers are exposing side ( in the ActiveSpeakerPosition ) but MPC-HC it's sending to the back (too) aka you're hearing sound from side and from the back ?
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Last edited by Mercury_22; 15th October 2009 at 22:51.
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Old 15th October 2009, 22:46   #10129  |  Link
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So the whole idea of a GUI / mixer goes out the window. Either that or mpcs GUI isn't correctly displaying what it's reading based on the structure in your link. You must at least see that.

If mpc reads that structure you link to then in your case it's obviously not parsing it correctly as t visually shows u outputting to the choice read by the structure. Ie your stricture should contain side left and right side as the choice but even on your machine you admit mpc shows visually back l and r. Not concerned? I Am because I know this is wrong and has a negative effect.

Not gonna keep repeating this. It's obviously wrong.

EDIT: no I don't have back channels. Mpc reads back instead of side from this structure you talk about. It has negatve effects for me but obviously not for you. My card thinks it's getting input for back channels which it knows I don't have so does it's best to mix out to my sides. This leads to channel bleeding. Hard to notice but my card a only doing it's best to make sure I hear those back outputs from mpc. Negative effect is it doesn't perfectly replicate the back inputs it gets to my sides. I believe ur card is also Reading back from mpc in 5.1 mode and is sendng to your side so you think all s perfect. Doesn't mean mpc isn't still at fault as it just is lol

I imagine the reason you might no hear channel bleedng s the xonar might have a more advanced way of mapping back input to side output. It's not just doing a channel copy which I imagne your getting. Normally this is a great idea but in this case with these apps sending to back instead of side this more advanced mapping of back to side is no good.

Last edited by mark0077; 15th October 2009 at 23:06.
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Old 15th October 2009, 23:09   #10130  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
So the whole idea of a GUI / mixer goes out the window. Either that or mpcs GUI isn't correctly displaying what it's reading based on the structure in your link. You must at least see that.

If mpc reads that structure you link to then in your case it's obviously not parsing it correctly as t visually shows u outputting to the choice read by the structure. Ie your stricture should contain side left and right side as the choice but even on your machine you admit mpc shows visually back l and r. Not concerned? I Am because I know this is wrong and has a negative effect.

Not gonna keep repeating this. It's obviously wrong.

EDIT: no I don't have back channels. Mpc reads back instead of side from this structure you talk about. It has negatve effects for me but obviously not for you. My card thinks it's getting input for back channels which it knows I don't have so does it's best to mix out to my sides. This leads to channel bleeding. Hard to notice but my card a only doing it's best to make sure I hear those back outputs from mpc. Negative effect is it doesn't perfectly replicate the back inputs it gets to my sides. I believe ur card is also Reading back from mpc in 5.1 mode and is sendng to your side so you think all s perfect. Doesn't mean mpc isn't still at fault as it just is lol
So what I understand is that when you select a 5.1 config in windows's speaker setup you still can hear sound from the back output too (in addition to the side out) although in the setup you have side speakers. Correct ?
Is this happening only with MPC-HC (and FFDShow) ?
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Old 15th October 2009, 23:13   #10131  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Mercury_22 View Post
So what I understand is that when you select a 5.1 config in windows's speaker setup you still can hear sound from the back output too (in addition to the side out) although in the setup you have side speakers. Correct ?
Is this happening only with MPC-HC (and FFDShow) ?
I only have 5.1 speakers but obv a 7.1 soundcard. When mpc incorrectly and visually sends output to back channels my soundcard does some fancy upmixing to my side channels giving negative effects.

So my proposal is to ask mpc developer why mpc mixer doesn't visually indicate that it detects the correct surround outputs for our config from the structure you linked to. because I believe this is the reason for my problem and I knOw it will effect others that don't have a card that directly maps back to side like in your case when you set your card to 5.1 where the problem is not noticible. Lucky you lol

Manually setting mpc or ffdshow, to output to sides rather than their default (or misread soundcard channel data if thats the case) fixes the problem immediately. Anyone know who would be responsible for this piece of mpc-hc's development, ie the mixer, or the detection of soundcard channel data.

Last edited by mark0077; 15th October 2009 at 23:32.
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Old 15th October 2009, 23:39   #10132  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
I only have 5.1 speakers but obv a 7.1 soundcard. When mpc incorrectly and visually sends output to back channels my soundcard does some fancy upmixing to my side channels giving negative effects.

So my proposal is to ask mpc developer why mpc mixer doesn't visually indicate that it detects the correct surround outputs for our config from the structure you linked to. because I believe this is the reason for my problem and I knOw it will effect others that don't have a card that directly maps back to side like in your case when you set your card to 5.1 where the problem is not noticible. Lucky you lol

Manually setting mpc or ffdshow, to output to sides rather than their default (or misread soundcard channel data if thats the case) fixes the problem immediately. Anyone know who would be responsible for this piece of mpc-hc's development, ie the mixer, or the detection of soundcard channel data.
Yes but how did you set the speaker config in Control panel -> Sound -> Configure 5.1 Surround or 7.1 Surround ?
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Old 15th October 2009, 23:56   #10133  |  Link
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Yes, but the xonar audio drivers sync up with windows control panel so I have both set to 5.1 surround. Of course my drivers know when it gets the back channel output from mpc-hc, or ffdshow, or whatever it is, that I don't have back channels, so it goes ahead and does its fancy upmixing so I do hear output on my sides, but not perfectly as I said, I get some bleeding because of the upmixing algorithm used.

When mpc-hc or ffdshow says its outputting to back channels, thats exactly what they do, output to back channels. Its upto your card how it interprets this. I think the xonar is doing a better job than the realtek here to be honest, ie not just directly mapping the back to the sides, its upmixing correctly.

Unfortunately the side effect of course is the channel bleeding, and you not noticing the problem. If your drivers get sent audio explicitly set for back, why should they ever just blindly send that to your side channels anyways. This is what mpc-hc and ffdshow are doing in both of our cases, just sending to our backs when in 5.1 config.

Last edited by mark0077; 16th October 2009 at 00:06.
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Old 16th October 2009, 03:10   #10134  |  Link
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I used a Xonar in a 5.1 setup with MPC for nearly a year, and I gotta say, I just never had any of the problems you're talking about.

For one thing, the Xonar drivers and the Windows audio panel do not sync up, and that's by design; in fact, the only way to get the card's Pro Logic II stereo upmixer engaged is to set the Windows panel to stereo and your Xonar panel to 5.1 or 7.1 . And the Xonar doesn't do 'fancy upmixing' by default - it does a very simple channel replication that couldn't possibly result in crosstalk artifacts. Of course, you can opt to use its Pro Logic II processing, but again, you'd have to have the Windows panel set to 5.1 and the Xonar panel set to 7.1 for that to be affecting you in this case.

This channel bleed stuff is bizarre, though. I just can't imagine what would be causing it, unless Asus managed to FUBAR their drivers since I last used them (wouldn't put it past them). You're going to hate me for asking this, but are you sure you don't have the '7.1 virtual speaker' option ticked in your Xonar panel? Because that would certainly cause crosstalk...

Last edited by flanger216; 16th October 2009 at 03:18.
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Old 16th October 2009, 09:02   #10135  |  Link
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Nah with older vista drivers i had no syncing of xonar control panel with windows but new ones and windows 7 ones they do sync up. I'm in hifi mode with gx disabled, so no virtual speaker or anything fancy.

I think the xonar is working as it should. Imagne if I had a center back output coming from an application even though I don't have a physical center back channel. The xonar would and should mix this into my available surround channels so that that channel isn't completely lost in subspace. Not a direct channel copy of course.

This is why when mpc sends me back channel data. With newer drivers this is nicely mixed t sides. Not just direct channel copies but a nice upmix. It's so clear to me what's happening and what the possible solutions are. Just hoping some mpc devs do also.

OK from my understanding the xonar should give me an option on what to do in this situation, ie output nothing, or upmix to my available speakers. In any case its probably doing a good job seeing that mpc and ffdshow incorrectly and explicitly seem to be sending it data for back channels. Looking forward to input from developers on this auto detection of back versus rear, and why for my xonar 1.3 deluxe and Mercurys card both output to back (visually in mixers), when we actually have side channels.

Simple fact, ffdshow and mpc are both sending data incorrectly to the back channels (visually and digitally) and this needs to be addressed if its meant to be an automated process dependent on drivers etc.

Last edited by mark0077; 16th October 2009 at 11:01.
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Old 16th October 2009, 10:20   #10136  |  Link
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A lot of people talk about PDVD not beeing good software. What are the things that PDVD can t do/lacks in that TMT3 or MPC-HC can?
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Old 16th October 2009, 17:10   #10137  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Problem:
WVC1 in bluray m2ts files plays back at very low framerate using internal splitter.

Happens with ffdshow using wmv9 or libavcodec. CPU is below 50%.

Videos play smoothly using Haali's splitter, but that doesnt give descriptions for video/audio/subtitle tracks.
I can confirm this. One way to solve the problem is to use EVR Custom as output and enable "frame time correction" (keyboard shortcut "c").

However, that presents another problem for me. EVR Custom does not give me hardware acceleration on Windows XP (with WMVideo Decoder DMO, my 9400GT does not support VC-1 vld).

I think there are two possible solutions:

1. modify the internal splitter so that it sets the correct framerate

2. add "frame time correction" to VMR9

I hope either of those two is possible because that would finally give me hardware accelerated playback of VC-1 blu-rays on Windows XP with all of the features the internal splitter gives, such as the above mentioned audio/subtitle descriptions and seamless playback.
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Old 16th October 2009, 18:04   #10138  |  Link
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I can confirm this. One way to solve the problem is to use EVR Custom as output and enable "frame time correction" (keyboard shortcut "c").

However, that presents another problem for me. EVR Custom does not give me hardware acceleration on Windows XP (with WMVideo Decoder DMO, my 9400GT does not support VC-1 vld).

I think there are two possible solutions:

1. modify the internal splitter so that it sets the correct framerate

2. add "frame time correction" to VMR9

I hope either of those two is possible because that would finally give me hardware accelerated playback of VC-1 blu-rays on Windows XP with all of the features the internal splitter gives, such as the above mentioned audio/subtitle descriptions and seamless playback.
I have the same issue here and I think also the issue coming from the m2ts internal splitter. So it will be great if the issue can be fixed.
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Old 16th October 2009, 19:38   #10139  |  Link
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I have the same issue here and I think also the issue coming from the m2ts internal splitter. So it will be great if the issue can be fixed.
+1
remuxing m2ts->mkv solved the problem for me, so I also think it is a splitter glitch. Win7-64U.
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Old 17th October 2009, 03:41   #10140  |  Link
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That's weird because in their diagrams for 5.1 are shown Left Surround and Right Surround being at the sides as expected but for 7.1, Left Surround Side and Right Surround Side appear augmented by Left Surround Rear and Right Surround Rear. If the text above is correct then for 7.1 the side mapping would be switched to rear rather than simply adding the rear and the additional sound would then be side.

I have always had the understanding that the rear surround AKA back speakers were the additions in a 7.1 configuration (from either Dolby or DTS).
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