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Old 6th January 2020, 10:01   #2001  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Spyros View Post
LG announced that their new 8K TVs will support AV1.


As far as I know these are the first TVs with AV1 hardware decoding. I wonder if they will also support Opus.
These TVs will feature quite powerful SoCs and Opus is a very low complexity codec, so I see no reason not to support it.

Besides, YouTube started using it years ago along with VP9 and each device which supports YT must support Opus by default.
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Old 6th January 2020, 14:06   #2002  |  Link
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Samsung Electronics Unveils 2020 QLED 8K TV at CES

Samsung will also support AV1:
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At the same time, the QLED 8K lineup is among the first in the industry to support the playback of native 8K content. In 2020, consumers will be able to enjoy and stream AV1 codec videos filmed in 8K on QLED 8K TVs. All Samsung TVs in the 2020 8K line will ship with this capability built-in.

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These TVs will feature quite powerful SoCs and Opus is a very low complexity codec, so I see no reason not to support it.

Besides, YouTube started using it years ago along with VP9 and each device which supports YT must support Opus by default.
That's true, thanks to Youtube (and all the other streaming services that will follow) manufacturers have reason to support both codecs.

My previous message was based on seeing Samsung support VP9 but only Vorbis, not Opus (as of 2019), but I was wrong. This is only for the .webm container, Opus is already supported in .mp4, .mkv etc. I don't know if LG has similar documentation somewhere.
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Old 6th January 2020, 15:20   #2003  |  Link
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Originally Posted by birdie View Post
These TVs will feature quite powerful SoCs and Opus is a very low complexity codec, so I see no reason not to support it.

Besides, YouTube started using it years ago along with VP9 and each device which supports YT must support Opus by default.
I think he may have meant ASIC support?

As you say it's low complexity so it wouldn't require an ASIC to run it in a wall powered device like a high end 4K TV, but anything that reduces thermal output is welcome, it's annoying hearing a fan coming from a TV.
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Old 8th January 2020, 20:23   #2004  |  Link
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Does aomenc really support piping from ffmpeg?

my cmd line (simplified)
Code:
ffmpeg.exe -loglevel panic -i 1.avs -strict -1 -f yuv4mpegpipe - | aomenc.exe --cq-level=20 --cpu-used=3 --skip=0 --limit=1343 --kf-min-dist=0 --kf-max-dist=240 --output=1.ivf -
No ETA and crash at the end.
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Old 8th January 2020, 21:41   #2005  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
Does aomenc really support piping from ffmpeg?
2pass definitely works ok for yuv4mpegpipe or rawvideo pipe - so the pipe works

I haven't done 1pass encoding with aomenc, but that suggests something wrong with the 1pass syntax

EDIT: try adding --end-usage=cq --passes=1 , that completes works here for 1pass

Last edited by poisondeathray; 8th January 2020 at 21:49.
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Old 9th January 2020, 10:14   #2006  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
Does aomenc really support piping from ffmpeg?

No ETA and crash at the end.
As of recently I have also had it crash at the very end, and the last few frames of the stream never got encoded
Current git version on linux
I will try to reproduce it and see where it started
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Old 9th January 2020, 14:05   #2007  |  Link
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Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
2pass definitely works ok for yuv4mpegpipe or rawvideo pipe - so the pipe works

I haven't done 1pass encoding with aomenc, but that suggests something wrong with the 1pass syntax

EDIT: try adding --end-usage=cq --passes=1 , that completes works here for 1pass
Ok thanks. Those two extra switches solve my issue.
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Old 9th January 2020, 19:50   #2008  |  Link
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I think he may have meant ASIC support?

As you say it's low complexity so it wouldn't require an ASIC to run it in a wall powered device like a high end 4K TV, but anything that reduces thermal output is welcome, it's annoying hearing a fan coming from a TV.
Vorbis is quite low complexity. The CPUs in SoCs that can do AV1 decode will have ample power to decode Opus in a small fraction of available MIPS.

A bigger challenge can be if the SW audio decoder is integrated into the DRM system, which is sometimes hinky.

That said, xHE-AAC support is growing rapidly and has or will eclipse Opus's. Since it's just a new feature of the AAC porting kit, it'll get deeper integration in many cases.

I'm really impressed that we already have TVs launching with these specs for AV1. I'd love to know how much the SoC had to get bigger for that AV1 support. The extra transistors required for AV1 support is a really important factor in AV1's market viability.
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Old 10th January 2020, 03:54   #2009  |  Link
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Do you usually have to encrypt audio? I usually get a pass on that, specifically since the lower security of the audio path mandates multi key (to avoid stealing the audio key and using it for the video) and that's tricky on a lot of platforms.

I want to use Opus today, but the spec for putting it in fMP4 and using it in DASH are not finished (last I checked)! I even whined about this but sounds like there's not a ton of motivation to finish it, which is a real shame.

Last edited by Blue_MiSfit; 10th January 2020 at 03:57.
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Old 10th January 2020, 23:42   #2010  |  Link
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Do you usually have to encrypt audio? I usually get a pass on that, specifically since the lower security of the audio path mandates multi key (to avoid stealing the audio key and using it for the video) and that's tricky on a lot of platforms.
The need to encrypt audio is becoming less common overall. But some platforms have had perf issues mixing encrypted and non encrypted media at the same time. And encryption would be required for high quality streaming audio.

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I want to use Opus today, but the spec for putting it in fMP4 and using it in DASH are not finished (last I checked)! I even whined about this but sounds like there's not a ton of motivation to finish it, which is a real shame.
I think xHE-AAC has stolen Opus's thunder, since the licensing and code is free for any AAC licensee. Plus it outperforms Opus some.
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Old 11th January 2020, 01:10   #2011  |  Link
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Xhe-aac didn't steal anything. The biggest video platform YouTube uses opus not he-aac. Second. We no longer live in 56k modem era to care that much about audio compression. 64kbps opus already sounds better than old MP3 128kbps joint-stereo. I really do not care If xhe-aac will achieve the same quality at even lower bitrate (48kbps). The same can be seen with image compression. Ancient jpg is still good enough and file size is not a problem when you have at least 1Mbps connection
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Old 11th January 2020, 03:51   #2012  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
Xhe-aac didn't steal anything. The biggest video platform YouTube uses opus not he-aac. Second. We no longer live in 56k modem era to care that much about audio compression. 64kbps opus already sounds better than old MP3 128kbps joint-stereo. I really do not care If xhe-aac will achieve the same quality at even lower bitrate (48kbps). The same can be seen with image compression. Ancient jpg is still good enough and file size is not a problem when you have at least 1Mbps connection
Sadly even in developed countries there are plenty of rural areas with terrible data connections using ancient ADSL tech on lines miles from the nearest telephone exchange.

In less developed countries the problem is even worse still, so even a few dozen kilobits still count.

The coming satellite broadband internet solutions will likely diminish the problem somewhat globally, but even then the content providers are still thinking in terms of millions to billions of served video and audio streams/files per day - from which even 64 kbps will accumulate quickly, so they will continue to push the advancement in compression on all fronts too, simply to reduce what they have to pay for serving their content.
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Old 11th January 2020, 05:46   #2013  |  Link
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I think xHE-AAC has stolen Opus's thunder, since the licensing and code is free for any AAC licensee. Plus it outperforms Opus some.
Opus is getting on a bit, and represents only an early stab at using ML in audio codecs - I think we might expect the current focus on ML techniques with AV2 and VVC to bear fruit in a new audio codec sooner or later.

The xiph site called "Monty's Demo Pages" has an article about a "Real-Time Wideband Neural Vocoder at 1.6 kb/s Using LPCNet", I think done by JM Valin who also worked on Daala and AV1.

Link here.

Whether this turns into anything concrete is uncertain, but it is certainly interesting.
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Old 11th January 2020, 12:13   #2014  |  Link
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In less developed countries the problem is even worse still, so even a few dozen kilobits still count.
Seriously? Do you really think that saved 16kbps will change anything? IT is 2020 . Mobile network 3g is already fast enough for 64kbps audio streaming. Audio streaming is no longer a problem. Video on other hand is a different story...
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Old 11th January 2020, 20:26   #2015  |  Link
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Sadly even in developed countries there are plenty of rural areas with terrible data connections using ancient ADSL tech on lines miles from the nearest telephone exchange.
Nowdays You get at least ~ 1-1.5 Mbit in worst case or you get nothing. And that's with an old ADSL2+. 10% of that bitrate budget will go for audio. That's 128 kbps.

xHE-AAC is very low bitrate format and it doesn't present any advantage at 96 kbps and higher comparing to an old LC-AAC. (go check official MPEG tests).

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In less developed countries the problem is even worse still, so even a few dozen kilobits still count.
No.
https://ispspeedindex.netflix.com/country/india/


Somebody saying that xHE-AAC is gaining market fast and letting another audio formats in dust, it isn't just not true. It's a bald-face lie.

Companies don't want to pay for low bitrate xHE-AAC license simply because LC-AAC patents have expired and they don't need to stream 32-48 kbps where xHE-AAC would make sense.

Spotify (web app), Tidal , Apple Music, Netflix, they all don't need to pay anymore for LC-AAC licensing.

xHE-AAC was developed 7 years ago. Since then it has faced stiff competition from Opus and patent expiration of MP3, LC-AAC, Dolby Digital AC3 formats. Today it belongs same place as another failed audio format, MPEG Surround, which hasn't seen any meaningful adoption.

Last edited by IgorC; 11th January 2020 at 20:31.
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Old 11th January 2020, 23:04   #2016  |  Link
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xhe-aac is just another variant optimized for speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yArrLvMYng8
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Old 13th January 2020, 21:09   #2017  |  Link
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Seriously? Do you really think that saved 16kbps will change anything? IT is 2020 . Mobile network 3g is already fast enough for 64kbps audio streaming. Audio streaming is no longer a problem. Video on other hand is a different story...
There are hundreds of millions of people in developing countries who often connect with 2G. And streaming video is streaming video + audio, so every bit saved from audio means the minimum bitrate for AV is that much lower.

If you're talking rural mobile delivery, saving 16 Kbps from audio really does make a material difference.

This is why lower speed mobile in developing countries might be one of the most viable markets for AV1, since it truly is a lot better than H.264 for very low bitrates. Of course, that is dependent on getting performant SW decoders or HW decoders on low-cost devices. Which often run an ASOP derivative versus actual Google-endorsed Android with all those requirements. If we see low-cost chipsets with HW AV1 become ubiquitous, that would be a big market that has rapid turnover for new models.
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Old 13th January 2020, 21:24   #2018  |  Link
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Nowdays You get at least ~ 1-1.5 Mbit in worst case or you get nothing. And that's with an old ADSL2+. 10% of that bitrate budget will go for audio. That's 128 kbps.
For a household, maybe. For those who have that connection. But that gets shared across multiple users, and probably neighbors too.

Quote:
xHE-AAC is very low bitrate format and it doesn't present any advantage at 96 kbps and higher comparing to an old LC-AAC. (go check official MPEG tests).
"Not better, but lower bitrate" is a pretty big advantage. Plus xHE allows for seamless audio bitrate switching, which wasn't possible between LC/HEv1/HEv2.


Obviously Netflix customers are pre-selected as people who have enough bandwidth to stream Netflix.
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The Netflix ISP Speed Index is a measure of prime time Netflix performance on particular ISPs (internet service providers) around the globe, and not a measure of overall performance for other services/data that may travel across the specific ISP network.
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Somebody saying that xHE-AAC is gaining market fast and letting another audio formats in dust, it isn't just not true. It's a bald-face lie.
It's getting built into the major OSes and mobile platforms already. There is no extra cost to add it for anyone who is already a Fraunhofer AAC SDK licensee. Whenever someone updates to the recent version, they'd have to comment out xHE in order to not support it. And it's pretty trivial for anyone doing adaptive streaming to offer multiple audio codecs to support backwards compatibility.

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Companies don't want to pay for low bitrate xHE-AAC license simply because LC-AAC patents have expired and they don't need to stream 32-48 kbps where xHE-AAC would make sense.

Spotify (web app), Tidal , Apple Music, Netflix, they all don't need to pay anymore for LC-AAC licensing.
Citation that they don't pay for it? There's no royalty for any of that per hour streamed or something like that. The cost of AAC licensing is really immaterial.

Quote:
xHE-AAC was developed 7 years ago. Since then it has faced stiff competition from Opus and patent expiration of MP3, LC-AAC, Dolby Digital AC3 formats. Today it belongs same place as another failed audio format, MPEG Surround, which hasn't seen any meaningful adoption.
MPEG Surround has been supplanted by MPEG-H, which is the default ATSC 3.0 codec in many markets, including South Korea. It's increasingly built into mass market devices. And Android has had it built in for a while now.

MPEG-H is really an Atmos/AC-4 competitor, though; not for low bitrate stereo. I see it growing a lot in living room devices, less in North America than in Asia.
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Old 13th January 2020, 21:29   #2019  |  Link
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xhe-aac is just another variant optimized for speech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yArrLvMYng8
I don't know about "just." It's a codec that supports both speech-focused and general-purpose encoding tools, and can mix and match those as is most appropriate for bitrate and content. It's really the same concept as Opus, with the same strengths.

The big difference is that it fits into the existing audio codec and MPEG ecosystems better. Not that Opus had any fundamental technical reasons why it couldn't, but there just weren't proponents pushing for it the same way and with the same resources.

Web/PC oriented technologies can innovate quickly and powerfully, but it's way harder to migrate from there to consumer electronics and living room than people imagine. Same reason why VP8/9 never had much traction outside of user generated content on the web. Premium content interoperable across all material endpoints requires a huge, huge effort from many, many stakeholders.
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Old 13th January 2020, 21:35   #2020  |  Link
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There are hundreds of millions of people in developing countries who often connect with 2G
Those hunders of millions of people don't use their 2G connection to watch Netflix (to begin with)! In fact most of these people care more about an access to drinking water rather than to high speed internet connection. Netflix isn't priority there.

More advanced codecs like HEVC, VP9, AV1, Opus, xHE-AAC won't bring possibility to use services like Netflix or Spotify on 2G or 3G as such limited speeds and, most importantly, traffic cap make these services hardly affordable for people with low incomes in developing countries.

Also there is no terrific difference bettween speed of developed/developing countries https://ispspeedindex.netflix.com/

It doesn't support your theory of 2G in developing countries.
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