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Old 15th January 2018, 19:55   #1361  |  Link
r0lZ
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Ooops, I did an error. I don't know if v2.6.11 or v2.6.12 is the latest official release, but I forgot that I have banned that two versions due to a big bug. In the dialog that shows the version of tsMuxeR that is distributed with BD3D2MK3D, you will see this:
Quote:
---------------------------
BD3D2MK3D
---------------------------
Network Optix tsMuxeR. Version 2.6.11. www.networkoptix.com

WARNING: Do NOT use v2.6.11 or v2.6.12 as they have a big bug with the time codes of the subtitle streams of some BDs. The last known good version is v2.6.9.

Visit home page?
---------------------------
Yes No
---------------------------
I forgot that bug, but I should NOT have updated it to v2.6.11, and I don't want v2.6.12 either. I will immediately release a new version of BD2D2MK3D with v2.6.9, as it should.
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Old 15th January 2018, 20:05   #1362  |  Link
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Thanks for this Info.
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Old 15th January 2018, 20:10   #1363  |  Link
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BD3D2MK3D v1.5 final release!

OK, here is the latest GOOD version of BD3D2MK3D, that includes tsMuxeR v2.6.9 again.

I have not updated the version number, as BD3D2MK3D itself has not changed. Please download this version if you have already downloaded v1.5 before today, January 15, 2018 at 19:10 GMT.

Download: BD3D2MK3D.7z
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Old 16th January 2018, 16:49   #1364  |  Link
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Thanks r0lZ. I tried the new build and got the error pasted below. I subsequently tried the manual method and it appears the BDSup2Sub++ hangs when I try to load the subtitle file. I tried both one that I manually extracted with MKVTools and the one extracted in the BD3D2MK3D project folder with similar results. Later today I'm going to try on another machine to see if it is that. I can upload the subtitle file if you'd like to see if it works on yours.

Job finished Mon Jan 15 23:06:15 MST 2018
Whole job took 9 minutes and 32 seconds.

Done with warnings!

* Can't convert "MKV3D.track_3.Eng.sup" to 3D BD SUP!
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Old 16th January 2018, 17:53   #1365  |  Link
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Strange. I did Avatar with hardburned French subtitles without much problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiltr0n View Post
I can upload the subtitle file if you'd like to see if it works on yours.
Yes, please do it, and send me the link via PM (for copyright reasons). I will try it with the different versions of BDSup2Sub I have here.
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Old 16th January 2018, 18:26   #1366  |  Link
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PM sent
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Old 16th January 2018, 21:07   #1367  |  Link
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The subs from Avatar are really somewhat strange.

AFAIK there were errors with end time.
I solved the problem by using an older version of BDSup2Sub.jar. ->v4.01
Read the Avatar sup with BDSup2Sub401.jar and store again. That worked.
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Old 17th January 2018, 00:00   #1368  |  Link
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So many issues with all the BDSup2Sub editions, nobody there who will write a better SUP-Tool?
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Old 17th January 2018, 05:49   #1369  |  Link
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So did a few more tests with other versions of BDSups2Sub and they all crash, or have the same error. The closest I've gotten is with the latest version of BD3D2MK3D. It extracts the PNG files into a folder but doesn't complete the temp_2D.xml file or the SUP conversion. Kind of at a loss.
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Old 17th January 2018, 06:48   #1370  |  Link
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Ok, tried one last thing. I think my previous issues were because when I ripped my BD in MakeMKV, I only selected the forced subtitles checkbox. I re-ripped the BD with both tracks (normal subs and forced). I created a MD3D2MK3D project with that new MKV + sub track and it created the files and scripts accurately, but I couldn't see an option to only do forced on that one. So I did the manual method as well and extracted / converted only the forced subtitles and replaced the old ones with the new ones and updated the script files. It's converting now so I'll see if it worked tomorrow morning, but this is the closest I've gotten.
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Old 17th January 2018, 12:33   #1371  |  Link
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OK, so it seems that MakeMKV has trouble extracting the forced subtitles from the original (complete) stream. It's not really astonishing, because the Avatar subtitles are really bizarre. Here is what I know about the Avatar subtitles and the various versions of BDSup2Sub++ I've tested.

BDSupsSubEnhanced and BDSup2Sub++ v1.0.2 can handle the subtitles with "multiple PDS/ODS definitions" (several different subtitles appearing at the same time on screen). BDSup2Sub.jar and all versions of BDSup2Sub++ before 1.0.2 as well as 1.0.2a cannot handle them, and they issue only a warning. (BDSup2SubEnhanced is theoretically able to handle them, but it cannot save them to XML/PNG, so it's not a good choice.) Since BD3D2MK3D uses now only BDSup2Sub++ 1.0.2 to read the original SUP streams, it should be able to process them correctly. Furthermore, since there is only a single 3D-Plane per subtitle stream in a BD3D, all subtitles appearing at the same time on screen must share the same depth, and therefore I guess that multiple ODS are probably never used for 3D movies.

Unfortunately, BDSup2Sub++ has some troubles when it reads some subtitle streams, notably the Avatar streams. It finds multiple ODS when there is only a single ODS (false positives). Therefore, when it converts the subtitle stream to XML/PNG, it creates several bitmaps for the same subtitle, but all of them but one are useless. And it includes them in the XML file, with several problems as well, such as width, height, X and Y positions being 0, or references to non-existing PNG files. So, when the latest version of BD3D2MK3D (v1.5) converts the subtitles to 3D, it checks the XML for that kind of errors, and if it find at least one bad definition, it converts the original BD SUP stream again to BD SUP format with BDSup2Sub++. That fixes "magically" the problem of the fake multiple ODS. (If there are REAL multiple ODS in the original stream, they are preserved.) Then, the new SUP is converted again to XML/PNG, this time without problem. BD3D2MK3D merges then the remaining multiple subtitles (if any) to form single subtitles, so that the problem of the multiple ODS can be ignored. BD3D2MK3D creates then a new XML/PNG stream with the PNGs converted to 3D and a new XML file. To convert that XML/PNG stream back to BD SUP (or to DVD SUB), it must use BDSup2Sub.jar, as ++ has another bug. When ++ imports the PNGs, it crops the fully transparent parts of the subtitles, but it fails when it modifies the Width, Height, X and Y coordinates accordingly, and the final stream has the subtitles at wrong positions. (That bug happens only when the subtitles are cropped, but it's a problem that cannot be easily detected.) Luckily, the Java versions of BDSup2Sub has not that bug, and BD3D2MK3D uses it for the last conversion. Conclusion: It is possible to convert any BD SUP file to XML/PNG and then back to SUP by using the right version of BDSup2Sub for each step, and using a tool I've written to merge the multiple ODS together.

If you need to do convert the streams manually to XML/PNG, just remember to always use BDSup2Sub++ to convert the original SUP to XML/PNG, then use the new BD3D2MK3D subtitle tool "Combine Multiple PDS/ODS Definitions" (or use the little standalone CLI exe I've released here) to verify if there are buggy multiple subtitles or merge the real multiple subtitles. Do whatever you need to do with the XML/PNG stream, and use BDSup2Sub.jar to convert the edited XML/PNG to your final format.

Last thing to note: Avatar, as well as a few other 3DBD, has the subtitle streams TWO times. They are in the 2D M2TS file with the AVC video stream and the audio streams, like all other 3DBDs. But they are also in the second M2TS file that should normally contain ONLY the MVC video stream. And the two versions OF THE SAME STREAM have the same stream ID! Therefore, when a demuxer needs to extract a specific subtitle stream from a SSIF with the AVC and MVC streams, if finds two times the same stream. I guess that it's the source of the many problems encountered with the Avatar 3DBD. If it's true, that mean they you should never encounter fake multiple ODS when you process a 2D BD with MakeMKV, tsMuxeR or eac3to.

I don't know why MakeMKV cannot extract correctly the forced subtitles from the AVatar BD, but it's almost certainly caused by the double subtitle streams and the related problem of the false positives multiple ODS. I will add a note in the explanation of how to use MakeMKV with BD3D2MK3D to explain that if there are problems when converting the subtitles, it is necessary to re-rip the BD with the complete subtitle streams ONLY. It's the only thing I can do.
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Old 17th January 2018, 12:38   #1372  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiltr0n View Post
I created a MD3D2MK3D project with that new MKV + sub track and it created the files and scripts accurately, but I couldn't see an option to only do forced on that one.
You can select the forced subtitles only in tab 2 (if you just want to include them as a subtitle stream), or in the drop-down menu of the last tab if you want to burn them in the video stream. I suppose that MakeMKV keeps the individual Forced flags when it creates the MKV, so that should work.

I will try to do what you have tried with my Avatar 3DBD, to verify if I can reproduce the problem you had, and if selecting the complete subtitle stream is sufficient to solve the problem. Perhaps I will also be able to detect the problem before the crash, but I don't think so...

[EDIT] Sorry, I was wrong. With a MKV as input, there is no way to select only the forced subtitles from a "complete" subtitle stream. I will try to add that option, if MakeMKV keeps the individual Forced flags.
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Last edited by r0lZ; 17th January 2018 at 13:59.
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Old 17th January 2018, 13:39   #1373  |  Link
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Avatar sups

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
..."multiple PDS/ODS definitions" (several different subtitles appearing at the same time on screen).
Hi r0lZ, can you tell me which lines / timecodes those are?

cheers
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Old 17th January 2018, 13:56   #1374  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Suppé View Post
Hi r0lZ, can you tell me which lines / timecodes those are?
I don't understand. My post above is not related to a specific 3DBD. And as far as I know, all multiple ODS in Avatar are false positive.

If you want a sample of a (real) multiple ODS, download my standalone "Combine Multiple ODS" tool here. The archive contains samples of several problematic subtitles, including a sample from Avatar and a simple stream with a double subtitle.
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Old 17th January 2018, 15:02   #1375  |  Link
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Update: my file works and now has burned in only forced subtitles. It definitely was because I had MakeMKV do the forced subtitles only at that stage. If you add the forced sub only in the hard burn section, that would be awesome. In my experience too, MakeMKV does maintain the forced subtitle flags. The workaround fixed the issue, although I may have to re-do it because I didn't use the java version of BDSup2Sub for the XML/PNG conversion. I'm doing full SBS so not sure if it is cropping it or not. But at least I know I can get the subtitles burned in now. Thanks for your assistance.
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Old 17th January 2018, 15:06   #1376  |  Link
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Ok, I misunderstood. Will download your mentioned tool. Thank you.

Another question: I'm using your "Clone Subtitle Positions" tool a lot. It works terrificly.
However, in some cases, I would like the possibility to only take over the "horizontal" placement and be able to choose the vertical alignment myself. I do this by creating xml/png files, where I specify the wanted bottom offset myself.

If possible, would it be much trouble to adjust your tool, so that there is a choice to pick horizontal - (or vertical) offset only, or both, to clone/take over?

PS Your mentioned "problem of the multiple ODS bug" and fixtool, are these auto-checked and -executed in your latest BD3D2MK3D?

Last edited by von Suppé; 17th January 2018 at 15:17.
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Old 17th January 2018, 15:22   #1377  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiltr0n View Post
The workaround fixed the issue, although I may have to re-do it because I didn't use the java version of BDSup2Sub for the XML/PNG conversion.
AFAIK, the cropping bug doesn't happen with Avatar. It happens only with the subtitles that are included in a wider fully transparent bitmap. (You can normally see that in the GUI of BDSub2Sub: the wellow border is larger than the subtitle text itself.) That's relatively rare, except in 3DBDs from the Asian market, and some musical DBs (like the German 3DBD "The Scorpions live in 3D").

So, normally, you can safely launch the encoding of the project as you have it.

I'm not sure I will add the option to extract the forced subs in MakeMKV mode, as that will be confusing, and, as you will see in a following post, the problem you had seems very rare.
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Old 17th January 2018, 15:30   #1378  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by von Suppé View Post
Another question: I'm using your "Clone Subtitle Positions" tool a lot. It works terrificly.
However, in some cases, I would like the possibility to only take over the "horizontal" placement and be able to choose the vertical alignment myself. I do this by creating xml/png files, where I specify the wanted bottom offset myself.

If possible, would it be much trouble to adjust your tool, so that there is a choice to pick horizontal - (or vertical) offset only, or both, to clone/take over?
That's not a bad idea. And I have already wanted to do that sometimes, because otherwise the subtitles are not always correctly aligned in Y (for example when a single line uses a double-line subtitle from the guide to grab its position). But note that if you restrict the tool to work only for the X coordinates, the (rare) subtitles that are on the top of the screen in the guide will not be moved. That may and probably will be a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Suppé View Post
PS Your mentioned "problem of the multiple ODS bug" and fixtool, are these auto-checked and -executed in your latest BD3D2MK3D?
Yes, the standalone tool is exactly identical to the new subtitle tool integrated in BD3D2MK3D, and now, BD3D2MK3D is able to avoid the false positive of multiple ODS bug and to merge the real multiple ODS as single subtitles automatically during the creation of the project. Also, note that real multiple ODS are very rare (except in Japanimation).

Don't worry. You need to use the tool manually only if you convert yourself a problematic subtitle stream to XML/PNG.
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Last edited by r0lZ; 17th January 2018 at 15:34.
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Old 17th January 2018, 15:41   #1379  |  Link
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My test with Avatar through MakeMKV is finished. I have selected the English and French complete and forced-only streams (therefotre a total of 4 streams) in MakeMKV. BD3D2MK3D has been able to convert them all, but with some difficulties.

Here is the log for the conversion to 3D of the English Forced stream. (The logs for the other streams are almost identical.)

In red, the interesting parts:
Quote:
*** Converting "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup" to 3D BD SUP. Please wait!
*** Converting subtitle file "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup" to 3D SBS using 3D-plane "3D-Plane-00.ofs" + additional depth 0...
Subtitle language: eng (English)
*** Converting subtitle "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup" to "temp_2D.xml"...
> "D:\\Tcl\\work\\BD3D2MK3D\\toolset\\BDSup2Sub++.exe" --palette-mode keep --minimum-time 0 --language en --force-all set --fps-source 24p --fps-target 24p -o "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D/temp_2D.xml" "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup"
BDSup2Sub++ 1.0.2
OPTION: Set language to English (en)
OPTION: synchronize target framerate to 24p
OPTION: Converting framerate from 23.976fps to 23.976fps
OPTION: Set minimum display time to 0
OPTION: Set palette mode to keep
OPTION: Set forced state of all captions to: set
Converting XML/PNG
Loading E:/BD3D2MK3D_projects/Avatar/MKV3D/MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup
Detected 83 forced captions.
Writing E:/BD3D2MK3D_projects/Avatar/MKV3D/MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\temp_2D.xml
WARNING: fade out detected -> patched palette
Writing E:/BD3D2MK3D_projects/Avatar/MKV3D/MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\temp_2D.xml
There was 2 warnings
Conversion of 1 file(s) finished
*** Found 96 captions, including 83 forced captions.
Checking "temp_2D.xml" for false positive of multiple ODS (the "Avatar" bug)...
WARNING: Bad Graphics coordinates detected in event #2.
BDSup2Sup++'s multiple ODS bug detected. Converting the original SUP file to a temp SUP to avoid it...

*** Converting subtitle "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup" to "tmp.sub"...
> "D:\\Tcl\\work\\BD3D2MK3D\\toolset\\BDSup2Sub++.exe" --palette-mode keep --minimum-time 0 --language en --force-all set --fps-source 24p --fps-target 24p -o "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D/tmp.sub" "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup"
BDSup2Sub++ 1.0.2
OPTION: Set language to English (en)
OPTION: synchronize target framerate to 24p
OPTION: Converting framerate from 23.976fps to 23.976fps
OPTION: Set minimum display time to 0
OPTION: Set palette mode to keep
OPTION: Set forced state of all captions to: set
Converting SUB/IDX
Loading E:/BD3D2MK3D_projects/Avatar/MKV3D/MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup
Detected 83 forced captions.
Writing E:/BD3D2MK3D_projects/Avatar/MKV3D/MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\tmp.sub
WARNING: fade out detected -> patched palette
Writing E:/BD3D2MK3D_projects/Avatar/MKV3D/MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\tmp.idx
There was 2 warnings
Conversion of 1 file(s) finished
*** Found 96 captions, including 83 forced captions.
Converting the temp SUP file to XML/PNG. This time, the conversion should work.
*** Converting subtitle "tmp.sub" to "temp_2D.xml"...
> "C:\\ProgramData\\Oracle\\Java\\javapath\\java.exe" -Xmx256m -jar "D:\\Tcl\\work\\BD3D2MK3D\\toolset\\BDSup2Sub.jar" "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D/tmp.sub" -o "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D/temp_2D.xml" --palette-mode keep --minimum-time 1 --language en --force-all set --convert-fps 24p,24p
Loading E:\BD3D2MK3D_projects\Avatar\MKV3D\MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\tmp.sub
Detected 96 forced captions.
Writing E:\BD3D2MK3D_projects\Avatar\MKV3D\MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\temp_2D.xml
Writing E:\BD3D2MK3D_projects\Avatar\MKV3D\MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D\temp_2D.xml
Conversion finished.
*** Found 96 captions, including 96 forced captions.
Converting the multiple ODS events to single events in "temp_2D.xml"...
No multiple ODS found in "temp_2D.xml".

*** Adding 3D depth info from "3D-Plane-00.ofs" to "temp_2D.xml"...
Source 3D-plane: 3D-Plane-00.ofs
Min depth: 2
Max depth: 46
Average depth: 12.54
Number of warnings for undefined frame's depth: 0
Number of subtitles processed: 96
Number of forced subs: 96
Frame rate of the stream: 24.0
Frame rate used to convert the drop frames timecodes to frame numbers: 24.0

*** Converting "temp_2D.xml" to 3D...
Input file: temp_2D.xml
Stereoscopy mode: Side by Side (left view first)
Additional or fixed depth: 0
Resize filter: Mitchell
Number of subtitles processed: 96
Conversion of 2D XML/PNG files to 3D using ImageMagick took 27 seconds (00:00:27)
*** Converted 96 subtitles to 3D-SBS. No errors. :-)
*** Trying to determine the best DVD palette for BDSup2Sub VobSub conversions from the single PNG image #32 in directory "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D_2D"...
> Found colour #10/#11 in image "temp_2D_0032.png" (subtitle #32):
Primary (lighter) colour: 250,250,51
Secondary (darker) colour: 187,187,17
Debug: Nearest colour in default palette: 250,250,51 (Distance: 0)
Debug: Histogram:
65666: ( 0, 0, 0) #000000 black
2360: (187,187, 17) #BBBB11 srgb(187,187,17)
12029: (250,250, 51) #FAFA33 srgb(250,250,51)
*** Modified 2 colour pairs in the default DVD palette for VobSub conversions.
Saving file "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.palette.ini"...
Saving file "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.palette++.ini"...
*** Converting subtitle "temp.3D.xml" to "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D.sup"...
> "C:\\ProgramData\\Oracle\\Java\\javapath\\java.exe" -Xmx256m -jar "D:\\Tcl\\work\\BD3D2MK3D\\toolset\\BDSup2Sub.jar" "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D.3D/temp.3D.xml" -o "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D.sup" --palette-mode keep --minimum-time 1 --language en --convert-fps 24p,24p
Loading E:\BD3D2MK3D_projects\Avatar\MKV3D\MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D.3D\temp.3D.xml
Writing E:\BD3D2MK3D_projects\Avatar\MKV3D\MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D.sup
Conversion finished.
*** Converted 96 captions.

Deleting temp 3D XML/PNG directory "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.3D.3D".
*** Done. Converted 96 subtitles to 3D-SBS. No errors. :-)
Full conversion took 40 seconds (00:00:40)

* All captions in stream "MKV3D.track_5.Eng.sup" are forced.
Forcing the forced flag.
As you can see, BDSup2Sub++ has created wrong entries in the XML, and BD3D2MK3D has detected them. It has then converted the original SUP to a temp SUP, and converted that temp SUP to XML/PNG, again with ++, this time without problem. In the new XML/PNG, there is no multiple ODS any more, so that stream has not been modified. The final conversion to the 3D SUP has been made with BDSup2Sub.jar without problem.

It's exactly what I expected. The same thing has happened when I have converted the decrypted ISO, so it appears that, at least with my version of the BD, you can use MakeMKV to decrypt the movie, including the forced subtitle streams. I don't know what happened with hiltr0n's BD, but I'm unable to reproduce that problem.

There is however a strange thing that I've noticed. When the subtitles streams are converted to XML/PNG with ++, the progress is (relatively) fast during the first 90% of the process, and then it becomes suddenly very slow. But it has reached the end of the conversion without problem.

Also, I note that there are a few subtitles in the complete streams that come from the subtitle stream included in the MVC M2TS. They are full-size 1920x1080 subtitles with "Please turn on your 3D-glasses and put them on now." They are not forced and appear near 0:00:30 in the movie. Unfortunately, I have no way to detect and remove them. I guess that it's for that reason that these streams are so difficult to convert. They interfere with the 2D subtitle stream in the AVC M2TS.

Anyway, with my version of the Avatar 3DBD, things work as expected with the latest version of BD3D2MK3D, with a decrypted ISO or a MKV created by MakeMKV, so I don't think I'll modify it again.
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r0lZ
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BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV

Last edited by r0lZ; 17th January 2018 at 15:46.
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Old 17th January 2018, 18:05   #1380  |  Link
hiltr0n
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Understood. I've converted a fair amount of 3D movies with this tool and this is the first time any of the forced subs have given me any problem so I agree that this is quite rare. I'm going to blame it on the Papyrus font they used . I have a working full SBS MKV with burned in forced subtitles. Nice to know the manual process for rare cases like Avatar.
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