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Old 2nd January 2017, 05:10   #41821  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
Please what ?

A Spatial noise Patern is indistinguishable from a Temporal Approach ?
So you like 10-bit 4:2:2 instead?

madVR outputs RGB so having the GPU convert to YCbCr and downscale the chroma has always looked worse to me then the VERY subtle noise from dithering in 8-bit. Most people cannot see a difference between dithered 10-bit and dithered 8-bit even with specific test patterns but blurring the chroma is (relatively) obvious in specific situations.

Of course 10-bit is nice for the reduced dithering noise but only if you can maintain RGB at the same time, IMO.

I can distinguish temporal from spacial dithering, pixels have a minor "shimmering" to them which is more noticeable to me then the static noise from madVR's dithering (I like madVR's dithering without color or motion).

Edit: Some TVs might do as good a job at chroma upscaling as madVR, do all processing in at least 14-bit, and maintain 10-bit to the panel but at the same time you cannot say quality is only 10-bit v.s. 8-bit.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 07:25   #41822  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
So you like 10-bit 4:2:2 instead?

madVR outputs RGB so having the GPU convert to YCbCr and downscale the chroma has always looked worse to me then the VERY subtle noise from dithering in 8-bit. Most people cannot see a difference between dithered 10-bit and dithered 8-bit even with specific test patterns but blurring the chroma is (relatively) obvious in specific situations.

Of course 10-bit is nice for the reduced dithering noise but only if you can maintain RGB at the same time, IMO.

I can distinguish temporal from spacial dithering, pixels have a minor "shimmering" to them which is more noticeable to me then the static noise from madVR's dithering (I like madVR's dithering without color or motion).

Edit: Some TVs might do as good a job at chroma upscaling as madVR, do all processing in at least 14-bit, and maintain 10-bit to the panel but at the same time you cannot say quality is only 10-bit v.s. 8-bit.
Yes i like the idea of 10 bit 4:2:2 and Samsung at least seems to officially support it on their 2016 Platform not sure about Sonys state here very few real useful official information on Sonys side.

The thing is as nice as it sounds to put the PC to the TV it is blasting inefficient on every side just for that small gain especialy with NGU wasting so much energy that is sorry crazy.

All TVs currently are Highly Efficient ARM Platforms Partly with their own Processing SOCs and you Put a PC to that todo Chroma upscaling with a Discrete GPU ?

If you use that TV as a PC Monitor you should take advantage of this and not use the PC at all anymore for Media Playback only for those that ARM System is to weak for or doesn't support, and merge both in a efficient way.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 09:15   #41823  |  Link
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DLP Checkerboard output?

I was wondering if madVR has ever considered including DLP Checkerboard as an output format?

I have an old Samsung DLP that will do 3D if the input is in Checkerboard format. The MVC builds of Kodi can actually do this, but it currently has some trouble with some of the MVC MKVs that I've made. I know that madVR handles these MKVs just fine, because if I set madVR to display side-by-side, it shows the files properly decoded. madVR just doesn't do DLP Checkerboard output. I'd prefer the simple combo of madVR with a simple media player anyways.

I know that this is an old display. I would just like to use it if I could.

There was a thread on Kodi's forum when this was asked about a few years ago, before Kodi implemented it. The developer of Bino3D chimed in, as they had implemented DLP Checkerboard in Bino3D. Maybe the information in this thread would be useful:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=196827

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Old 2nd January 2017, 09:34   #41824  |  Link
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There was a thread on Kodi's forum when this was asked about a few years ago, before Kodi implemented it. The developer of Bino3D chimed in, as they had implemented DLP Checkerboard in Bino3D. Maybe the information in this thread would be useful:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=196827

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You can use kodi + madvr
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Old 2nd January 2017, 09:44   #41825  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
There was a thread on Kodi's forum when this was asked about a few years ago, before Kodi implemented it. The developer of Bino3D chimed in, as they had implemented DLP Checkerboard in Bino3D. Maybe the information in this thread would be useful:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=196827

Thanks!
You can use kodi + madvr
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Old 2nd January 2017, 12:05   #41826  |  Link
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In my case, Kodi isn't properly displaying the MVC MKV files that I have. (I will attempt to work with the Kodi guy to get that problem resolved, but that's a separate thing.) I know that madVR can decode the files correctly because it can display them side-by-side.

Having madVR have the ability to output to DLP Checkerboard would open up madVR to be used in this instance in all the places that madVR can be used, which is a considerable benefit to madVR.

Thanks.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 14:04   #41827  |  Link
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The RAM isn't too important for madVR, you can use smaller buffers, but the extra cores/shaders can allow the use of the higher end scalers, etc.
Yeah the 1050 Ti is more powerful but I'm not sure if the difference is enough to actually allow any better madVR settings to be used. The price difference is pretty big - a jump from £110 to £140.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 14:10   #41828  |  Link
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You can use kodi + madvr
True but unless I'm totally out of the loop, you can only use madVR within Kodi when using DSPlayer, which is no longer updated. It also doesn't work properly with live TV (at least when using the MediaPortal TV Plugin), whereas using the default Kodi video player works fine.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 19:03   #41829  |  Link
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Yeah the 1050 Ti is more powerful but I'm not sure if the difference is enough to actually allow any better madVR settings to be used. The price difference is pretty big - a jump from £110 to £140.
if you want to scale to UHD you will need to buy a 1050 ti i don't see a problem with the 1050 for FHD.

you need more than 2 Gb of Vram for UHD.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 19:40   #41830  |  Link
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if you want to scale to UHD you will need to buy a 1050 ti i don't see a problem with the 1050 for FHD.

you need more than 2 Gb of Vram for UHD.
I see. I'm not sure whether to just get a 1050 for HEVC HD stuff now and upgrade again when I eventually upgrade my TV, or to just plump for the 1050 Ti and maybe have forward compatibility.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 19:48   #41831  |  Link
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do you really think you will need the HEVC decoder?

i would get the 1050 ti or nothing at all.

i have a UHD TV for over a year and a GPU that can decode HEVC too and i never needed it.
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Old 2nd January 2017, 20:13   #41832  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
The thing is as nice as it sounds to put the PC to the TV it is blasting inefficient on every side just for that small gain especialy with NGU wasting so much energy that is sorry crazy.

All TVs currently are Highly Efficient ARM Platforms Partly with their own Processing SOCs and you Put a PC to that todo Chroma upscaling with a Discrete GPU ?

If you use that TV as a PC Monitor you should take advantage of this and not use the PC at all anymore for Media Playback only for those that ARM System is to weak for or doesn't support, and merge both in a efficient way.
These were questions about madVR... I am not sure what you are arguing; HTPCs aren't worth it in general?

The little ARM computers in TVs are ok but I much prefer Zoom Player wth madVR, NGU, 3DLUT (i1 Pro2), and ED dithering. It takes more power then using the TV's soc but it is higher quality and much easier to control. My Titan X (Pascal) keeps my room nice and warm.

If small gains aren't important then 10-bit isn't important.
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Old 3rd January 2017, 00:11   #41833  |  Link
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Adding to my question on profiles (I like NGU for SD real life content, but not on anime), I wanted to address a few points.

Overall I like the new GUI, yes some setting freedom is lost but the layout makes more sense. To note a few things, next to NNEDI3 and NGU (only doubling, quadrupling) or something similar should be remarked, so the following settings makes more sense. For instance NNED3 is capable of quadrupling but the setting still says (algorithm to use after "doubling"), it confused me at first and I am a long time madVR user that came back after a few months off.
Also the setting "200% super sampling" looks out of place, I personally don't find how super sampling a 1080 source can be improved for viewing on a 1080 display, all while we already have 200% (doubling) HQ upscalers for sub-1080 sources.

Another point, many graphs don't update accordingly (reconstruction upscaler on the various variations; soft, sharp...)

And a question, what is bicubic50, 60, 75? How does that translate to Catmull-Rom (0.0,0.5), Robidoux (0.3782, 0.3109), Mitchell-Netravali (0.33,0.33)...

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Old 3rd January 2017, 01:37   #41834  |  Link
Asmodian
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And a question, what is bicubic50, 60, 75? How does that translate to Catmull-Rom (0.0,0.5), Robidoux (0.3782, 0.3109), Mitchell-Netravali (0.33,0.33)...
Check the second post in my options explained thread.
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Old 3rd January 2017, 05:23   #41835  |  Link
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@Asmodian, thank you! you quite keep things up to date. I guess arbitrary settings are not possible like Robidoux or that negative "b" Didée suggested back then.

I did some comparisons with my old default (NNEDI3 based), and my (now decided) new default using NGU, they are all transcodes but improvement is superb, even when I'm never for ultra sharp plastic-like results, but NGU does things in a very subtle and smart way, only on very SD content (mostly sub 480p) a softener must be applied, or something like NGU-low (softer) while we wait on what NGU quadruple can deliver. I'm not too fond on relying in post-processing (soften edges, etc) to fix things that can be handled before hand. btw I also second the option for calling madVR settings on a hotkey.
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Old 3rd January 2017, 09:11   #41836  |  Link
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These were questions about madVR... I am not sure what you are arguing; HTPCs aren't worth it in general?

The little ARM computers in TVs are ok but I much prefer Zoom Player wth madVR, NGU, 3DLUT (i1 Pro2), and ED dithering. It takes more power then using the TV's soc but it is higher quality and much easier to control. My Titan X (Pascal) keeps my room nice and warm.

If small gains aren't important then 10-bit isn't important.
You misunderstand me for old TV Platforms MadVR is a good solution but im not sure if it still will stand up vs 2016/2017 Platforms.
We might getting into equal quality results this year on the Processing side for a much bigger userbase.

Especially the "It is higher quality" is questionable if that will still hold up.

And yes a HTPC depending on the Format needed for consumption only is becoming more and more useless and inefficient for the AVG mass market.

And 10 bit is super important and surely no small step finally leaving Hollywood to end users.

MadVR is super useful i agree on the control side of things for Windows PCs and Madshi did a awesome job here, combining things and now presenting his own approach with NGU.
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Old 3rd January 2017, 11:19   #41837  |  Link
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Any chance of adding a new option to allow different profiles for different resolutions? So for something intensive like 4K/UHD playback it allows you to choose a simpler scaling method (or no scaling at all) and will auto switch to that profile upon detection of that resolution? I have found at least one 4K video I cannot play using the settings I usually use for 1080P material without tons of dropped frames even on my overclocked RX 480 and I7 4770K (LG Chess UHD HDR demo). I have to back off to really simple scaling for that clip to play smoothly.
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Old 3rd January 2017, 12:03   #41838  |  Link
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Any chance of adding a new option to allow different profiles for different resolutions? So for something intensive like 4K/UHD playback it allows you to choose a simpler scaling method (or no scaling at all) and will auto switch to that profile upon detection of that resolution? I have found at least one 4K video I cannot play using the settings I usually use for 1080P material without tons of dropped frames even on my overclocked RX 480 and I7 4770K (LG Chess UHD HDR demo). I have to back off to really simple scaling for that clip to play smoothly.
Huh is it losing Hardware acceleration does it accelerate it at all ?

Is it only this 4K HEVC Demo that collapses with your scaling chain in MadVR on your RX480 ?

But yeah it's the most complex one currently out of Atemes Titan



I actually wonder how Samsungs Hardware Decoder handles it

Would be nice if you could push your RX480 Decoding result of it (without MadVR overhead) in the HEVC Decoder thread we have no information on that one yet.
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It is about Time

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http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168004

Last edited by CruNcher; 3rd January 2017 at 12:34.
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Old 3rd January 2017, 12:41   #41839  |  Link
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Any chance of adding a new option to allow different profiles for different resolutions? ......
It's called profiles... and they have been a part of madVR for quite some time.

For example this is what I use:

Code:
if     (srcHeight <  641) and (deintFps < 25) "univisium24"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 25) "720p24"
elseif (srcHeight <  801) and (deintFps < 25) "1080p24 cropped"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 25) "1080p24"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 26) "720p25"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 26) "1080p25"
elseif (srcHeight <  353) and (deintFps < 31) "352p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  405) and (deintFps < 31) "404p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  541) and (deintFps < 31) "540p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  717) and (deintFps < 31) "716p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 31) "720p30"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 31) "1080p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 61) "720p60"
QB
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Old 3rd January 2017, 18:09   #41840  |  Link
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It's called profiles... and they have been a part of madVR for quite some time.

For example this is what I use:

Code:
if     (srcHeight <  641) and (deintFps < 25) "univisium24"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 25) "720p24"
elseif (srcHeight <  801) and (deintFps < 25) "1080p24 cropped"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 25) "1080p24"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 26) "720p25"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 26) "1080p25"
elseif (srcHeight <  353) and (deintFps < 31) "352p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  405) and (deintFps < 31) "404p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  541) and (deintFps < 31) "540p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  717) and (deintFps < 31) "716p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 31) "720p30"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 31) "1080p30"
elseif (srcHeight <  721) and (deintFps < 61) "720p60"
QB
OR

if (deintFps <= 25) and (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight > 1080)) "2160p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight > 1080)) "2160p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 1280) and (srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920)) "1080p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 1280) and (srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280)) "720p25"
else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280)) "720p60"
else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p60"

else if (deintFps <= 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540)) "540p25"

else if (deintFps > 25) and ((srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540)) "540p60"
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