Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th January 2024, 22:00   #21  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
Every time I see 4Mbps average bitrates for FullHD and H.264 channels, it just makes me sad.
Yeah, I know your pain. Some channels airing on terrestrial TV are really appalling...
The bad thing is that the situation ain't much better in the satellite world either.
In our case, we're airing with DVB-S2 QPSK on the satellite and although the streams are live hardware encoded (which is NEVER as efficient as offline software encoding), 2.5 Mbit/s for MPEG-2 25i BT601 SD, 12 Mbit/s for H.264 25i BT709 FULL HD and 25 Mbit/s for H.265 50p BT2020 HLG UHD are not actually bad.
Then again, Hotbird is so overcrowded that the cost of keeping the channels running at those bitrates is incredibly high and there's a fierce competition for bandwidth from quite literally every other broadcaster in Europe.
Just take a look at the whole Hotbird 13F beam:



that's just one single satellite with plenty of companies in every nation desperately trying to get a chunk of that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
Unfortunately, most people don't even know that quality loss due to lossy compression is not only a thing but can be very significant too. Most people only know resolution is a thing and that's it.
Yep, yep... it's really sad...

Last edited by FranceBB; 12th January 2024 at 22:05.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2024, 23:49   #22  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
Yeah, I know your pain. Some channels airing on terrestrial TV are really appalling...
The bad thing is that the situation ain't much better in the satellite world either.
In our case, we're airing with DVB-S2 QPSK on the satellite and although the streams are live hardware encoded (which is NEVER as efficient as offline software encoding), 2.5 Mbit/s for MPEG-2 25i BT601 SD, 12 Mbit/s for H.264 25i BT709 FULL HD and 25 Mbit/s for H.265 50p BT2020 HLG UHD are not actually bad.
For FULL HD H.264, I am happy with 7-8Mbps. As long as there isn't anything obviously wrong with the video, I am good. 7-8Mbps allows for 3 channels on DVB-T and 4 channels on DVB-T2 with 64QAM modulation and a reasonable FEC of 2/3 (actual bitrate depending on guard interval choice and audio bitrates). You'd assume at least 3 channels for what used to be one analog channel would be good enough, but nope: add this useless "+1" subchannel, add this even more useless telemarketing channel, sell some spectrum to 5G (from the already decimated spectrum after the admittedly necessary 4G auction), and that's how we ended up with 4Mbps for FULL HD on terrestrial being considered "normal" now.

I don't know any broadcaster who does 12Mbps even on satellite please give me the name of the channel and satellite if you know one.

Also, some broadcasters are realizing HotBird isn't worth the squeeze and move to Eutelsat, and somehow manage to run out of spectrum there.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 13th January 2024 at 16:14.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2024, 01:33   #23  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
I don't know any broadcaster who does 12Mbps even on satellite please give me the name of the channel and satellite if you know one.
Us at Sky of course.
This is Sky Sports Football from the website you used to check the bitrate before (digitalbitrate) Link and you can see that it does spike to 12 Mbit/s when needed and Sky Sports UHD Link which is consistently at 25 Mbit/s.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2024, 16:31   #24  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
Us at Sky of course.
This is Sky Sports Football from the website you used to check the bitrate before (digitalbitrate) Link and you can see that it does spike to 12 Mbit/s when needed and Sky Sports UHD Link which is consistently at 25 Mbit/s.
Cable doesn't really count though, I was referring to terrestrial and satellite. Nobody on terrestrial or satellite does 7Mbps average or even 6.5Mbps.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2024, 17:49   #25  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,933
Oooops, that's my bad for not using the site search properly, I didn't notice it said "cable". Sorry.
Still, the hardware live encode is actually the same, so you're gonna see the same results.
Here's Sky Sport F1 on satellite: Link
Just like the other FULL HD sports channel, it goes to 12 Mbit/s when it really needs to.
And here's Sky Sport UHD on satellite Link
Again, steadily at 25 Mbit/s.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2024, 18:51   #26  |  Link
rwill
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 365
Funny that the statmux had 14.9Mbit peak for the Beate Uhse HD channel at one point ...

But 45Mbit allocated to 6 channels is ok I guess. For broadcast anyway.
rwill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2024, 23:40   #27  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwill View Post
Funny that the statmux had 14.9Mbit peak for the Beate Uhse HD channel at one point ...

But 45Mbit allocated to 6 channels is ok I guess. For broadcast anyway.
Video is 40.10Mbps only, so that's ~6.7Mbps per channel, which is still a bit on the cramped side for a premium service that you have to pay a good amount of money for, but I've seen much worse, even from premium satellite services (see here for an example of a really cramped mux of a premium service and here for the quality it gives, the channel is FHD despite not saying so in the channel name, this is considered "broadcast-quality FHD video" somehow).

One more thing about Sky's channels: I wonder why their UHD channel needs 576kbps for E-AC3 audio. Maybe E-AC3+JOC (aka Dolby Digital Plus Atmos)? I know the site says only E-AC3 5.1, but 576kbps is too much for E-AC3 5.1, and JOC is an extension on top of "core" E-AC3 5.1 bitstream, so the site may not be picking it up.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 14th January 2024 at 00:29.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2024, 14:51   #28  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurkosdr View Post
One more thing about Sky's channels: I wonder why their UHD channel needs 576kbps for E-AC3 audio. Maybe E-AC3+JOC (aka Dolby Digital Plus Atmos)? I know the site says only E-AC3 5.1, but 576kbps is too much for E-AC3 5.1, and JOC is an extension on top of "core" E-AC3 5.1 bitstream, so the site may not be picking it up.
It is indeed.
So essentially, when you see 384 kbit/s 48000Hz E-AC3, then it truly only is 5.1 which is the live lossy encode of the original stream where 5.1 is carried by another lossy codec, namely DolbyE 5.1 20bit at 1.3 Mbit/s. On the other hand, when you see E-AC3 at 576 kbit/s 48000Hz then it's actually Atmos (so E-AC3 + JOC) coming from a DolbyE 5.1.4 20bit stream at 2.6 Mbit/s.

p.s speaking of DolbyE, if you use VLC you may wanna help on commenting and upvoting my feature request here Feature Request: Implement DolbyE Audio Decoding in VLC (FFMpeg supports it)

Last edited by FranceBB; 14th January 2024 at 14:59.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th January 2024, 17:06   #29  |  Link
kurkosdr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
p.s speaking of DolbyE, if you use VLC you may wanna help on commenting and upvoting my feature request here Feature Request: Implement DolbyE Audio Decoding in VLC (FFMpeg supports it)
Keep in mind most people don't care about DolbyE, it's a format that doesn't leave the studio/TV station. And VideoLAN doesn't care about more important edge cases. For example I've tried to make them seriously consider implementing forced subs support for DVD-Video, which is a problem much more users come across, and they still haven't more than a decade later. I just use Kodi for my DVD-Video needs instead.

I will upvote when I get some time, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Last edited by kurkosdr; 14th January 2024 at 18:13.
kurkosdr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2024, 18:34   #30  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwill View Post
Funny that the statmux had 14.9Mbit peak for the Beate Uhse HD channel at one point ...

But 45Mbit allocated to 6 channels is ok I guess. For broadcast anyway.
Statmux certainly can produce a lot better quality than if each channel had a fixed CBR! Of course, if all the channels happen to be showing a complex opening sequence at about 10 seconds after the hour...
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th April 2024, 23:02   #31  |  Link
ShortKatz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 122
After Chrome, now Mozilla has removed Theora support as well.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1860492
ShortKatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2024, 17:17   #32  |  Link
j7n
Registered User
 
j7n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 138
I wonder by how many kB the browser actually became smaller, which would be a valid reason for the removal. But a program shrinking would break the laws of progress. The exe size of the oldest codecs is only growing, aside from the exceptional case where they actualy shrunk Vorbis. I might have seen a Theora video file only once or twice. If they simply allowed to save a video in an unknown format to disk, you could watch it normally like before browsers became OSes.
j7n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2024, 19:58   #33  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by j7n View Post
I wonder by how many kB the browser actually became smaller, which would be a valid reason for the removal. But a program shrinking would break the laws of progress. The exe size of the oldest codecs is only growing, aside from the exceptional case where they actualy shrunk Vorbis. I might have seen a Theora video file only once or twice. If they simply allowed to save a video in an unknown format to disk, you could watch it normally like before browsers became OSes.
The low-level optimization required for codecs and media pipelines have long made them a prime target for hacking, and a major source of real-world intrusions.

If I'm trying to make a very secure platform to which pretty much any sequence of bits can be sent, like a web browser, I'd want to get rid of anything with assembly optimization I didn't need. A web browser has orders of magnitude higher security bar than something like ffmpeg.

It's bad practice to keep around code that isn't extensively tested every version, and that's a lot of burden for something that <0.1% of browsers have ever seen in the last five years.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.