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Old 13th February 2023, 20:21   #761  |  Link
FranceBB
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Perhaps, Nevicarel, but from my own experience of ffmpeg contributions, they're left hanging there and not merged without any real explanation on why. Just to name one, I've been waiting for them to merge this for 6 months now and no one replied to my emails and in the ticket there's only someone who uses the nickname Elon Musk (almost definitely not the *real* Elon Musk) which says "No" without providing any details. https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/9864
Nicolas already asked too and yet, nothing.
This led us to actually include the patch ourselves and compile a custom version of FFMpeg, thus running a completely separate version from the rest of the world, which isn't nice of course.
And by the way, yes, we're running that very custom version in production 24/7.
What does that patch do?
It allows DolbyED2 5.1.4 decoding and fixes a decoding error in DolbyE 5.1 in which the decoded audio was slightly shorter than it should have been.
Why they refused it? Dunno.

Quote:
comment: by Francesco Bucciantini
So... any chance of any of the patches being merged to master anytime soon?
Quote:
comment by Elon Musk
Nope
Here I've also been blatantly ignored:

Quote:
comment: by Francesco Bucciantini
Hi everyone,
happy new year.
As you can see this pull request has been stagnating for the last 6 months, forcing us at Sky to build our own FFMpeg with the patch applied.
We've been trying to contact the current maintainer via email on different occasions, but we never had an a reply.
Is there any other maintainer we can talk to?
Thank you in advance,
Frank
so I've now lost faith...
My comment might have seemed a bit unfair at a first glance and if I upset someone, I apologize, but believe me, this is a bit frustrating for us as well 'cause I always get nice feedback and collaboration from everyone here on Doom9, especially in the Avisynth community, so when I went to ask a bunch of stuff to the FFMpeg community I thought it was gonna be the same, but apparently it's not...
If you DO know maintainers in the FFMpeg community and you do actually care about the progress of the whole project, then please, for the sake of avcodec, allow me to talk to them and ask for an explanation or at least to take it into consideration so that we can change/adjust the patch and provide some feedback to Nicolas, otherwise we're all losing time for nothing.
For us, DolbyE and DolbyED2 decoding is something very important which we do on a daily basis.
I know that it might not be important for some people, but for some other it's a vital thing to have and work properly.
I mean, you're the developer of LAV filters, after all, aren't you? (Which I use, by the way, so thanks for that too) So if avcodec becomes better it's also gonna be a good thing for LAV, right?

Last edited by FranceBB; 13th February 2023 at 21:10.
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Old 13th February 2023, 20:56   #762  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Not sure what "FFmpeg developers" you are talking to, but if they were of the active kind, they surely would have noticed this project on the mailing list.

The development tree is here:
https://github.com/ffvvc/FFmpeg

Its still quite under development and not finished yet, but should be somewhat usable.

There is also a GSoC 2023 project listed to enlist a student to help with writing Assembly for it, as well as a general task to get involved with work on it, if you need any more "evidence" that its a real thing endorsed by the FFmpeg project itself.
Woah, that looks amazing. A single person endeavour so far but it's quite active.
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Old 13th February 2023, 21:04   #763  |  Link
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Woah, that looks amazing. A single person endeavour so far but it's quite active.
that was my same reaction.
I have no idea who nuomi2021 is, but looks like he's doing everything on his own with 130 commits O_O
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Old 13th February 2023, 21:42   #764  |  Link
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BTW, I wasn't too wrong: development (of ffmpeg's own VVC decoder) started only on January 14th, 2023, i.e. just a month ago.
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Old 13th February 2023, 23:06   #765  |  Link
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Thats when the first version was published, you don't stamp that much out in a day. Some of the code has a 2021 copyright header. Not that people can't make mistakes in putting those in, and without the author telling us its impossible to know, but I would bet a good part of 2022 was this already being worked on.
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Old 14th February 2023, 09:00   #766  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Thats when the first version was published, you don't stamp that much out in a day. Some of the code has a 2021 copyright header. Not that people can't make mistakes in putting those in, and without the author telling us its impossible to know, but I would bet a good part of 2022 was this already being worked on.
Regardless it's great it's being worked on, albeit it seems like it's too late. The format was finalized over two years ago.
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Old 14th February 2023, 18:32   #767  |  Link
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Regardless it's great it's being worked on, albeit it seems like it's too late. The format was finalized over two years ago.
A couple-three of years from standardization to practical real-world use is pretty standard. Encoders need to be made and tuned, decoders need to be designed and shipped in products, etc.

HEVC was standardized in 2013 and didn't see much use until 2015. And since it was pretty much required to do practical 4K and HDR, there was a lot more appetite to use it an an early stage of development. Broad use of HEVC for 1080p SDR stuff was more around 2017.

VVC is a great codec, but there isn't some huge new market it enables like HDR, so implementers are more inclined to wait until it is end-to-end capable of handling current scenarios at much lower bitrates.
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Old 14th February 2023, 21:03   #768  |  Link
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VVC is a great codec, but there isn't some huge new market it enables like HDR, so implementers are more inclined to wait until it is end-to-end capable of handling current scenarios at much lower bitrates.
From what I remember VVC was positioned as the codec to enable 8k. I guess there is just not that much demand for that amount of pixels currently, except for maybe 360 videos or similar.

Maybe 1080p HDR is enough for the viewing setup most people have anyway...
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Old 14th February 2023, 21:52   #769  |  Link
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From what I remember VVC was positioned as the codec to enable 8k. I guess there is just not that much demand for that amount of pixels currently

Could be.
Japan also seems to be the only country currently broadcasting 8K contents (mostly documentaries or opera concerts), while other countries have only done sporadic tests on single events. They (the Japanese) even went to Milan to record at the "La Scala" theatre in Italy (its English meaning would be "The stair") and they didn't need any external help. They had their own cameras, lenses, video mixers, ingest, etc and I'm told they did everything on their own. Unfortunately I couldn't see any of that 'cause I wasn't invited...
Anyway, they're airing in H.265 mostly 'cause there aren't yet any widespread hardware encoder for H.266 VVC nor hardware decoders in commercial set-top-boxes or TVs. It would be interesting to know if they have any plan to switch to H.266 VVC once it becomes widely available, but unfortunately I don't know anybody at NHK to ask that...

On top of that, I also don't live anywhere near the footprint of BSAT 4A 110.0E 11977 nor have an H.265 8K compatible receiver to get the NHK BS 8K feed either


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Old 16th February 2023, 07:31   #770  |  Link
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Could be.
Japan also seems to be the only country currently broadcasting 8K contents (mostly documentaries or opera concerts), while other countries have only done sporadic tests on single events. [/IMG]
China has an 8K channel since January 2022, using China AVS3 though.

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8...A2%91%E9%81%93

Last edited by olduser217; 16th February 2023 at 08:19.
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Old 16th February 2023, 17:39   #771  |  Link
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From what I remember VVC was positioned as the codec to enable 8k. I guess there is just not that much demand for that amount of pixels currently, except for maybe 360 videos or similar.
Yeah, 4K YUV pixels appears to be sufficient to saturate the human visual system at a viewing distance where the viewing angles to the sides of the screen are acceptable.

Quote:
Maybe 1080p HDR is enough for the viewing setup most people have anyway...
For a lot of people it will be enough, and it's generally enough for SDR. HDR benefits more from higher resolutions as it can have way higher local contrast. I think 1440p would have hit perceptual saturation for SDR.
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Old 16th February 2023, 22:47   #772  |  Link
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ticket there's only someone who uses the nickname Elon Musk (almost definitely not the *real* Elon Musk)
That is Paul B Mahol aka richardpl. almost is the keyword here, I am not sure it is even his real name.
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Old 17th February 2023, 20:31   #773  |  Link
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By the way, thank you, Balling for letting me know that pinging the mailing list is normal. I tried again, let's see how it goes this time. I mean, in the whole ticket you seem to be the only one who replied and actually cared...
Hopefully the question and reply between me and you there will keep it up in the list until some of the maintainers will care...
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Old 23rd February 2023, 01:09   #774  |  Link
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VTM Encoder/Decoder Version 19.2 2a4ebfe9

Fraunhofer VVC Encoder ver. 1.7.0 4d3db39

Fraunhofer VVC Decoder ver. 1.6.1 36a6d13
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Old 17th March 2023, 20:16   #775  |  Link
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is there any concise explanation of how VVC\H266 works? not too detailed and technical, similar to HEVC explanation in HEVC forums.

also, is it supported in mpv or so yet?
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Old 17th March 2023, 20:40   #776  |  Link
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is there any concise explanation of how VVC\H266 works?
Well, for those who can read in Italian I explained it in one of my academic papers here: Link (There are also pictures ehehehehe).

however since this is an English-speaking forum, I'll translate a few lines of what I wrote:

Quote:
The new codec was developed starting from H.265 but introduced new encoding techniques and new optimizations; for instance prediction and motion-compensation were improved and concepts like Prediction Unit (PU) and Transform Unit (TU) have been removed. The main difference between H.265 and H.266 is that the first uses a Quad-Tree (QT) structure, while the second uses an MTT partition structure which includes the QT. In H.265 each frame is divided in several CTU (Coding Tree Unit). Each CTU has a block of luma and two blocks of chroma with corresponding sizes. The maximum size available for the luma block is 128x128 and the maximum for the chroma is 64x64. Besides, only the QT partition type is available for H.265, which limits the shape of the sub-CU to a square. In H.266 we have instead the MTT partition structure which includes 5 structures: BT_H (Horizontal Binary Tree Partition), BT_V (Vertical Binary Tree Partition), TT_H (Horizontal Ternary Tree Partition), TT_V (Vertical Ternary Tree Partition) and QT. Among them, the size ratio of the 3 parts in the partition structure is 1:2:1. The MTT partition structure allows the CU to be partitioned in an asymmetric way.
There are lots of other things to talk about like the transform used, plenty of new coding tools etc, but I can't translate my whole paper to English.

I'm pretty sure there are lots of very valid articles in English across the internet, but if you can't find any and you're curious, I think Google Translate *should* be able to translate my paper to English automatically for you.


EDIT: Wait, perhaps you meant how the Fraunhofer's VVC Encoder works and not how the VVC/H.266 codec works? If that's the case, just take a look at our discussion from a while ago here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=174940&page=24

and you can start from a base cmd of:

Quote:
ffmpeg.exe -i "AVS Script.avs" -strict -1 -an -f yuv4mpegpipe - | vvencapp.exe -i - --preset medium --format yuv420 --bitrate 25000 --profile auto --level 5.0 --passes 1 --output "VVC.h266"

pause
and then experiment


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Originally Posted by ~ VEGETA ~ View Post
also, is it supported in mpv or so yet?
Yes... No... It's complicated.
Yes if you compile with a custom patch.
No if you use the standard binaries automatically compiled from the latest master.
Also, MPV leverages on FFMpeg and the best software decoder we have right now is VVDec but the patch to integrate it to master has been rejected by the FFMpeg devs 3 times. A friend of mine went to the last convention in person and said that it's coming so... if it wasn't "3rd time lucky" it will probably be "4th time lucky", but in the meantime one guy is also developing his own decoder within libav so that decoding won't depend on Fraunhofer (the author of VVDec) but rather be integrated within the other decoders, so now we don't know whether they're gonna wait for it and integrate it instead of VVDec or whether they're gonna integrate VVDec first and then replace it with the libav implementation or if they'll just keep both.

As I said, it's a mess.

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Old 17th March 2023, 21:35   #777  |  Link
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thanks for your quick response.

I appreciate if you can write a new thread putting some very basic not-so-technical brief explanation. I know it is hard but it is not like writing technical papers, just specifying stuff so we can understand how the codec works and why it is hugely better than hevc despite using the same method of motion-estimation, referencing,etc..

I don't think any encoder\decoder is usable now, we need years.
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Old 18th March 2023, 05:27   #778  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ~ VEGETA ~ View Post
thanks for your quick response.

I appreciate if you can write a new thread putting some very basic not-so-technical brief explanation. I know it is hard but it is not like writing technical papers, just specifying stuff so we can understand how the codec works and why it is hugely better than hevc despite using the same method of motion-estimation, referencing,etc..

I don't think any encoder\decoder is usable now, we need years.
There is a MPV mod which uses vvdec for decoding VVC. https://github.com/MartinEesmaa/VVCE...xhe-aac-plugin
VVdec performance is not good as (AV1) dav1d decoder, but that is the only VVC playable right now.

VVC samples:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...RmBw7VgQLBaNI4
https://www.isize.co/portfolio/demo2/
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5oforc2nq..._2019.zip?dl=0

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Old 18th March 2023, 10:46   #779  |  Link
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To be of practical use, ffmpeg and related projects would also need to detect a VVC stream inside containers like MP4; but nobody really takes my bug report serious, yet, although it should be a small task, compared to implementing a whole decoder.
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Old 18th March 2023, 12:08   #780  |  Link
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nobody really takes my bug report serious, yet
if it can make you feel any better, they've been actively ignoring me as well...
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