SubRip: Timing Problem with "Die Unglaublichen"-DVD

eurotaku · 20th October 2008, 23:49

A few days ago i had my first shot at subtitle ripping. With SubRip 1.5b4 i ocred all german and english subs from my dvd of "Die Unglaublichen" (The Incredibles) into .srt-files. SubRip recognized the movie correctly as PAL@25fps. I also ripped the audio and video streams (now xvid encoded) with DVD-Decrypter. Then i merged them all together into a .mkv with the latest MKVmergeGUI.

But after the muxing i had to find out that the timings of the subtitles were way off. And with way off i don't mean just 1-2 seconds too early or late. That would have been easy to adjust, either with SubRip itself or as a delay during mkv-merging. it was also not only too short or too long, cause that could have been adjusted easily, too. The timings were just wrong from beginning to the end. First they were 0.5 seconds early, some chapters later they fit perfectly, another few chapters later they were already off by 3-4 seconds!

But i din't want to give up so easily. So i delayed and strechted the .srt with Jubler, so that the first and the last spoken sentence were in sync with the video. Now the first chapter (the golden age) was completely in sync, then the subtitles became more and more async until the middle of the movie(to a maximum of circa 4 seconds). After that the delay got smaller, so that the last chapter (stadium and underminer) was perfectly in sync again. Which means, that this is not a simple question of global framerate adjustments or delays. In the present form i would have to adjust at least 80% of the timings manually

But i couldn't believe this should be the best possible output without manual adjustments. Cause, when i watch the dvd on my pc, all the subtitle timings are exact to the frame, which means that the exact timings have to be on the dvd. So i retried the process with DVDSubedit1.5. It produced a .srt with totally different timings, but also totally wrong timings. I made a break to give the frustration some time to dwindle.

One last attempt, i swore to myself. First i downloaded an english subtitle of the movie. I muxed it into the file and after some trial and error i found the right delay adjustment for it to fit to my movie stream (2,5 seconds). These subtitles were now perfectly in sync with the complete movie (i watched it completely, just to be sure of that). So i made this .srt-file my reference. To enable myself to do a more in depth analysis of the differences of the reference-.srt and my dvd english-.srt i opened them with Jubler and saved them in SubStation-Alpha format, cause it uses one line per subtitle-line. Now i could import these subtitles into an Excel-sheet. I only imported the timings (hh,mm,ss,ms) and the subtitle-text as columns. The lines now all looked like this (first text&timing is from reference, second text&timing is from dvd):

00 00 34,62 00 00 36,61 - Is this on?\N- That's fine. 00 00 30,30 00 00 32,18 - Is this on?\N- That's fine.

Now i reformatted the comparison where neccessary, because sometimes the reference subtitles used for example two lines, where the dvd subtitles used only one line (i.e. two complete sentences in one timing marker). Or sometimes the reference subtitles included "sighs" or things like that, which are not on the dvd. Now i made columns with the differences in the delays of reference and dvd-subtitles and generated a line chart of it. It was very interesting:

http://i33.tinypic.com/34od895.jpg
(don't know how to include a thumbnailed version of the image, and the screenshot is too big to be included unaltered)

The delay did not gradually increase with playing time or something like that, it made some "jumps"! To explain the screen a bit: The pink and purple lines are the difference of the delays. The turquoise are just markers to show you the areas, where the majority of the delays are. X-Axis is chapternumber. Again, to support my analysis: over 90% of the delay-differences are inside the marked areas, the outliers are because of the already mentioned textual differences between both subtitles. So, it was clear for me now, that at certain points of the dvd SubRip suffers from a "jump" in the ripped timings. These points are:

- before the car-chase at the beginning
- right after the wedding
- in the middle of the hogenson scene
- when bob reads about gazerbeam in the newspaper
- when helen gets the locating device from edna
- after the baby is saved at the end

Whenever SubRip surpasses one of these points during the ripping process, the delay seems to be increased by round about 1 second. Well, only one way to find out if i was right with the delay "jumps". I opened my self-ripped english subtitles and adjusted the timings for every area with the corresponding delay jump amount visible in the chart (4.2; 5.2; 6.2; 7.2; 8.1; 9.25; 10.1 sec). Then i muxed it in and voila, it fit perfectly from start to end. I used the same values for all the other subtitles (german/forced subs/director's comment1+2/english for hearing impaired) and now they all match the video perfectly.

So, i hope i made some sense with my explaination. Perhaps someone can tell me, where these delay jumps are coming from. Especially whether it's my mistake or SubRip's. Wow, that's long for a first post...

setarip_old · 21st October 2008, 02:57

Hi!

Quote:

Especially whether it's my mistake or SubRip's

To find out, use DVD SubEdit to rip the same subs - and see if you have the same problem(s).

BTW - You'll find that the OCR function of DVD SubEdit is blazingly fast...

eurotaku · 21st October 2008, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by setarip_old

Hi!To find out, use DVD SubEdit to rip the same subs - and see if you have the same problem(s).

BTW - You'll find that the OCR function of DVD SubEdit is blazingly fast...

Well, if you look at the fourth paragraph you may read the following:

Quote:

So i retried the process with DVDSubedit1.5. It produced a .srt with totally different timings, but also totally wrong timings.

And yes, DVDSubEdits OCR function is indeed fast.

setarip_old · 22nd October 2008, 17:50

Quote:

So i retried the process with DVDSubedit1.5. It produced a .srt with totally different timings, but also totally wrong timings.

But did the DVDSubEdit rip of the subtitles exhibit the same type of problem that you originally stated?:

Quote:

The timings were just wrong from beginning to the end. First they were 0.5 seconds early, some chapters later they fit perfectly, another few chapters later they were already off by 3-4 seconds!...at certain points of the dvd SubRip suffers from a "jump" in the ripped timings.

eurotaku · 22nd October 2008, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by setarip_old

But did the DVDSubEdit rip of the subtitles exhibit the same type of problem that you originally stated?:

the "type" of problem is the same. how "exactly" the same i cannot tell, cause i only did a quick visual comparison of randomly chosen timings. i still got the srt-file that DVDSubEdit created, i'll try to include it into the excel comparison.

eurotaku · 22nd October 2008, 20:39

The comparison DVDSubEdit vs. reference looks like this:

http://i33.tinypic.com/2820w3s.jpg

The differences are much bigger. Don't know why, at first i thought it was because of a wrong framerate set up for ripping, but i converted the timings of the srt from 23,976 to 25 and now the differences were just as big, but in the negative. So, no idea, why they are so much bigger than the SubRip delays.

But the important thing is: the problem is the same, there are points in the ripping process, where the delays "jump". And these points seem to be the same. Just the sizes of the "jumps" are different. In the SubRip comparison all the "jumps" are almost exactly 1 second. In the second comparison the "jumps" are totally different: first over 60 seconds, then over 70 seconds, but then just around 8, 15 and 10 seconds.

setarip_old · 22nd October 2008, 22:00

Quote:

I also ripped the audio and video streams (now xvid encoded) with DVD-Decrypter.

Sorry I didn't notice this at first. If I remember correctly, this Disney release contains an early iteration of "RipGuard" copy protection. Although DVD Decrypter will APPEAR to properly rip it, this is not the case.

I'd suggest you re-rip your DVD using either RipIt4Me, Any DVD, DVD95CopyPro, or DVDFab HD Decrypter...

eurotaku · 22nd October 2008, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by setarip_old

Sorry I didn't notice this at first. If I remember correctly, this Disney release contains an early iteration of "RipGuard" copy protection. Although DVD Decrypter will APPEAR to properly rip it, this is not the case.

I'd suggest you re-rip your DVD using either RipIt4Me, Any DVD, DVD95CopyPro, or DVDFab HD Decrypter...

Wow, didn't know that. I'll retry the ripping process in the next days, hopefully with better results. Any special setup tips for Any DVD or DVDFabHDDec?

setarip_old · 23rd October 2008, 01:53

I'd suggest first using DVDFab HD Decrypter. It requires no special setup...

eurotaku · 26th October 2008, 20:43

no luck

the timings are exactly the same, no difference between using DVDDecrypter 3.5.4.0, DVDFab Decrypter 5.0.9.8 or AnyDVD 6.4.6.9 as the dvd ripper.

20th October 2008, 23:49	#1 \| Link
eurotaku Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 6	SubRip: Timing Problem with "Die Unglaublichen"-DVD A few days ago i had my first shot at subtitle ripping. With SubRip 1.5b4 i ocred all german and english subs from my dvd of "Die Unglaublichen" (The Incredibles) into .srt-files. SubRip recognized the movie correctly as PAL@25fps. I also ripped the audio and video streams (now xvid encoded) with DVD-Decrypter. Then i merged them all together into a .mkv with the latest MKVmergeGUI. But after the muxing i had to find out that the timings of the subtitles were way off. And with way off i don't mean just 1-2 seconds too early or late. That would have been easy to adjust, either with SubRip itself or as a delay during mkv-merging. it was also not only too short or too long, cause that could have been adjusted easily, too. The timings were just wrong from beginning to the end. First they were 0.5 seconds early, some chapters later they fit perfectly, another few chapters later they were already off by 3-4 seconds! But i din't want to give up so easily. So i delayed and strechted the .srt with Jubler, so that the first and the last spoken sentence were in sync with the video. Now the first chapter (the golden age) was completely in sync, then the subtitles became more and more async until the middle of the movie(to a maximum of circa 4 seconds). After that the delay got smaller, so that the last chapter (stadium and underminer) was perfectly in sync again. Which means, that this is not a simple question of global framerate adjustments or delays. In the present form i would have to adjust at least 80% of the timings manually But i couldn't believe this should be the best possible output without manual adjustments. Cause, when i watch the dvd on my pc, all the subtitle timings are exact to the frame, which means that the exact timings have to be on the dvd. So i retried the process with DVDSubedit1.5. It produced a .srt with totally different timings, but also totally wrong timings. I made a break to give the frustration some time to dwindle. One last attempt, i swore to myself. First i downloaded an english subtitle of the movie. I muxed it into the file and after some trial and error i found the right delay adjustment for it to fit to my movie stream (2,5 seconds). These subtitles were now perfectly in sync with the complete movie (i watched it completely, just to be sure of that). So i made this .srt-file my reference. To enable myself to do a more in depth analysis of the differences of the reference-.srt and my dvd english-.srt i opened them with Jubler and saved them in SubStation-Alpha format, cause it uses one line per subtitle-line. Now i could import these subtitles into an Excel-sheet. I only imported the timings (hh,mm,ss,ms) and the subtitle-text as columns. The lines now all looked like this (first text&timing is from reference, second text&timing is from dvd): 00 00 34,62 00 00 36,61 - Is this on?\N- That's fine. 00 00 30,30 00 00 32,18 - Is this on?\N- That's fine. Now i reformatted the comparison where neccessary, because sometimes the reference subtitles used for example two lines, where the dvd subtitles used only one line (i.e. two complete sentences in one timing marker). Or sometimes the reference subtitles included "sighs" or things like that, which are not on the dvd. Now i made columns with the differences in the delays of reference and dvd-subtitles and generated a line chart of it. It was very interesting: http://i33.tinypic.com/34od895.jpg (don't know how to include a thumbnailed version of the image, and the screenshot is too big to be included unaltered) The delay did not gradually increase with playing time or something like that, it made some "jumps"! To explain the screen a bit: The pink and purple lines are the difference of the delays. The turquoise are just markers to show you the areas, where the majority of the delays are. X-Axis is chapternumber. Again, to support my analysis: over 90% of the delay-differences are inside the marked areas, the outliers are because of the already mentioned textual differences between both subtitles. So, it was clear for me now, that at certain points of the dvd SubRip suffers from a "jump" in the ripped timings. These points are: - before the car-chase at the beginning - right after the wedding - in the middle of the hogenson scene - when bob reads about gazerbeam in the newspaper - when helen gets the locating device from edna - after the baby is saved at the end Whenever SubRip surpasses one of these points during the ripping process, the delay seems to be increased by round about 1 second. Well, only one way to find out if i was right with the delay "jumps". I opened my self-ripped english subtitles and adjusted the timings for every area with the corresponding delay jump amount visible in the chart (4.2; 5.2; 6.2; 7.2; 8.1; 9.25; 10.1 sec). Then i muxed it in and voila, it fit perfectly from start to end. I used the same values for all the other subtitles (german/forced subs/director's comment1+2/english for hearing impaired) and now they all match the video perfectly. So, i hope i made some sense with my explaination. Perhaps someone can tell me, where these delay jumps are coming from. Especially whether it's my mistake or SubRip's. Wow, that's long for a first post...

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22nd October 2008, 20:39	#6 \| Link
eurotaku Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 6	The comparison DVDSubEdit vs. reference looks like this: http://i33.tinypic.com/2820w3s.jpg The differences are much bigger. Don't know why, at first i thought it was because of a wrong framerate set up for ripping, but i converted the timings of the srt from 23,976 to 25 and now the differences were just as big, but in the negative. So, no idea, why they are so much bigger than the SubRip delays. But the important thing is: the problem is the same, there are points in the ripping process, where the delays "jump". And these points seem to be the same. Just the sizes of the "jumps" are different. In the SubRip comparison all the "jumps" are almost exactly 1 second. In the second comparison the "jumps" are totally different: first over 60 seconds, then over 70 seconds, but then just around 8, 15 and 10 seconds.

23rd October 2008, 01:53	#9 \| Link
setarip_old Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16,267	I'd suggest first using DVDFab HD Decrypter. It requires no special setup...

26th October 2008, 20:43	#10 \| Link
eurotaku Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 6	no luck the timings are exactly the same, no difference between using DVDDecrypter 3.5.4.0, DVDFab Decrypter 5.0.9.8 or AnyDVD 6.4.6.9 as the dvd ripper.