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Old 27th February 2024, 18:25   #941  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Originally Posted by birdie View Post
H.266 IBC support was merged into ffmpeg yesterday along with a ton of new fixes. Hooray!
Was there something specifically challenging about IBC that caused it to be implemented last?
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Old 28th February 2024, 20:10   #942  |  Link
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H.266 IBC support was merged into ffmpeg yesterday along with a ton of new fixes. Hooray!
This IBC fix seems still needed:
https://github.com/ffvvc/FFmpeg/pull...48cc5db14528fa
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Old 1st March 2024, 22:27   #943  |  Link
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New uploads: [Windows][GCC 13.2.0][64 bit]

VTM Encoder/Decoder Version 22.0 463b869bd

Fraunhofer VVC Encoder ver. 1.11.0 9c1d567

Fraunhofer VVC Decoder ver. 2.2.0 ada7270
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Old 2nd March 2024, 00:29   #944  |  Link
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Thanks for the new, updated builds. I stopped using VTM a long time ago, but I'll happily take VVEnc and VVDec
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Old 16th March 2024, 22:25   #945  |  Link
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H.266 VVC has entered the evaluation phase for ATSC 3.0, which means that ATSC members will have to vote on that. It is difficult to predict exactly when the membership might vote to make it part of the standard, but the candidate standard period is typically less than a year, so just a few months. Given that DVB has already accepted it, chances are that it might get approved by the end of the year.
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Old 17th March 2024, 13:07   #946  |  Link
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The scene has started experimenting with VVC. Won't post a link but you can easily Google it up: Oppenheimer (2023) IMAX 2160p UHD HDR BluRay VVenC H.266 VVC AAC 5.1 [RAV1NE]

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NOTE 1: The first 3-hour, 4K HDR feature length movie encoded in VVC!
NOTE 2: No CPU cycles were "wasted" since this was encoded on a VPS with AVX2 SIMD, which did not affect my regular encode workflow
NOTE 3: This took 35 DAYS to encode, see VVenC log dump below.
NOTE 4: FFmpeg was used for initial for initial muxing of the raw 266 bitstream into mp4 to preserve HDR metadata, then muxed audio+subtitle with MP4Box
NOTE 5: AAC was preferred over USAC for compatibility reasons and will not change until something drastic happens, qaac with TVBR is used for the best high-bitrate audio quality as possible (over FDK/FhG).
NOTE 6: Special """"thanks"""" to the folks over at Doronime for calling this fun benchmark.. "useless" :trollhq:

===================[ TECHNICAL DETAILS ]=====================



Size: 7.23GB
Tools used: FFmpeg, MP4Box, MP4 Tag Editor, qaac
Encoder settings: VVenC, the Fraunhofer H.266/VVC Encoder, version 1.9.1 [Linux][GCC 11.4.0][64 bit][SIMD=AVX2] (GIT, Commit 40dadd1) | -i - --y4m -v 4 --preset medium -q 23 --qpa off --hdr pq_2020 --tiles 2x1 -c yuv420_10

Video: H.266 / VVC | 3840x2160 - 10bit - 23.976 fps - 5280 kbit/s - HDR10 (BT.2020 PQ)
Subtitle(s): English SDH (SRT)

Audio:
AAC 5.1 - 454kbit/s - ?? English


Source: 2160p REMUX
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Old 17th March 2024, 15:47   #947  |  Link
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Comparision with x265 with the same bitrate would be great.
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Old 19th March 2024, 19:39   #948  |  Link
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The scene has started experimenting with VVC. Won't post a link but you can easily Google it up: Oppenheimer (2023) IMAX 2160p UHD HDR BluRay VVenC H.266 VVC AAC 5.1 [RAV1NE]
Off Topic on Doom9 but I am happy to see appreciation of AAC-LC. The Scene, people who are actually doing lots of encoding ( I want to say professional but I guess that is not the right word ) has made the right choice. It is just unfortunate most people dont get this and as AAC-LC is now fully patent free.

For Video, 35 days to encode. I guess it is a low end VPS?
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Old 19th March 2024, 21:05   #949  |  Link
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That encode is broken anyways, A/V are not synchronized at least for me.

And ffmpeg's built-in VVC decoder cannot handle it. It needs a ton of optimizations.
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Old 19th March 2024, 22:39   #950  |  Link
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Off Topic on Doom9 but I am happy to see appreciation of AAC-LC. The Scene, people who are actually doing lots of encoding ( I want to say professional but I guess that is not the right word ) has made the right choice. It is just unfortunate most people dont get this and as AAC-LC is now fully patent free.

For Video, 35 days to encode. I guess it is a low end VPS?
What were people doing instead of AAC-LC?
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Old 19th March 2024, 23:24   #951  |  Link
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What were people doing instead of AAC-LC?
They mentioned USAC, so I guess xHE-AAC, Netflix style, instead of a standard AAC-LC?
I don't know, though, just a wild guess, but for what it's worth I'm also a supporter of the good old AAC-LC.




Side note:
I'm an AAC-LC supporter for my personal stuff, but at work on linear we're using E-AC3 which I'm not proud of.

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Old 20th March 2024, 01:27   #952  |  Link
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Off Topic on Doom9 but I am happy to see appreciation of AAC-LC. The Scene, people who are actually doing lots of encoding ( I want to say professional but I guess that is not the right word ) has made the right choice. It is just unfortunate most people dont get this and as AAC-LC is now fully patent free.
let me help

there are various reasons AAC-LC has fully gone under the radar in recent years, but what i think is chief among them is because we've been fed if not outright gaslit into new audio coding technologies that (no exceptions) promise "higher quality at lower bitrates" but when comes time to deliver, we just get diminishing returns instead

spectograms aren't the be-all-end-all of how sound actually sounds like when put to a lossy audio codec but insane frequency cutoffs are EVERYWHERE now and not a single soul cares about letting sound "breathe" anymore, it's now all about "sounding good" rather than "letting sound speak for itself", it's why you seem to like AAC-LC even more it seems!
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Old 22nd March 2024, 18:12   #953  |  Link
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H.266 VVC has entered the evaluation phase for ATSC 3.0, which means that ATSC members will have to vote on that. It is difficult to predict exactly when the membership might vote to make it part of the standard, but the candidate standard period is typically less than a year, so just a few months. Given that DVB has already accepted it, chances are that it might get approved by the end of the year.
Sure, but what happens to all those existing UHD TVs sold the past 8 years that only decode HEVC UHD content?

Don't get me wrong, I want to see HEVC go away for 4K UHD broadcasts and be replaced by VVC, but unfortunately, I don't see it happening. For example, VVC is already part of the DVB toolset but it's used nowhere (there was a short trial of VVC-encoded 8K UHD by SES and that was it).

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Old 22nd March 2024, 18:33   #954  |  Link
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Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
They mentioned USAC, so I guess xHE-AAC, Netflix style, instead of a standard AAC-LC?
I don't know, though, just a wild guess, but for what it's worth I'm also a supporter of the good old AAC-LC.
I can see the utility of xHE-AAC for stuff like digital shortwave radio where most of the content is audio so there are savings to be had, but for video streaming? How much bitrate are you saving anyway to make it worth both the royalties cost and the compatibility breakage? Even video broadcasters don't use xHE-AAC, they use AAC-LC or HE-AAC (which I understand for channels with multiple audio tracks (languages), HE-AAC is backwards compatible with AAC-LC and offers some nice bitrate savings on multi-audio channels).

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They mentioned USAC, so I

Side note:
I'm an AAC-LC supporter for my personal stuff, but at work on linear we're using E-AC3 which I'm not proud of.
I never understood why some countries (including France) use E-AC3 for stereo content instead of AAC-LC. The whole point of AC3 and E-AC3 is that 5.1 audio content encoded in these formats is compatible with every AVR/home cinema system ever made (note: E-AC3 receivers can transcode E-AC3 to AC3), but for stereo content? Use AAC-LC and it will exit the SPDIF hole as stereo LPCM. Broadcasters work in mysterious ways.

The only good thing about stereo E-AC3 is that it usually acts as a compatibility stream next to AC4, so it's a small annoyance that relieves us from a much bigger annoyance (AC4). But why won't they use AAC-LC for the stereo compatibility stream next to AC4? Guess I'll never know. I would guess Blu-Ray compatibility (since E-AC3 is transcodable to AC3), but they also use E-AC3 on HLG10 channels which aren't Blu-Ray-compatible as a matter of fact. As I said, broadcasters work in mysterious ways.

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Old 22nd March 2024, 18:34   #955  |  Link
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The scene has started experimenting with VVC. Won't post a link but you can easily Google it up: Oppenheimer (2023) IMAX 2160p UHD HDR BluRay VVenC H.266 VVC AAC 5.1 [RAV1NE]
Do we know what AAC encoder they used?

They appear to be using "qaac" (which I guess is this one but not sure) with "TVBR". What is TVBR?

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Old 22nd March 2024, 21:39   #956  |  Link
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True VBR
See https://github.com/nu774/qaac/wiki/Command-Line-Options
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Old 23rd March 2024, 00:12   #957  |  Link
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I never understood why some countries (including France) use E-AC3 for stereo content instead of AAC-LC. The whole point of AC3 and E-AC3 is that 5.1 audio content encoded in these formats is compatible with every AVR/home cinema system ever made (note: E-AC3 receivers can transcode E-AC3 to AC3), but for stereo content?
I don't know, but my wild guess is to keep things consistent and stick a -24 dialnorm value in there (i.e DRC). I don't know for sure, though, as my job ends once I've delivered the TX Ready file (i.e the one the video server plays before it gets re-encoded for distribution), then it's all in the end of the distribution guys. Funnily enough when I pass them a DolbyE 5.1 I also include a dialnorm value of -24 but when it comes to stereo it's always PCM anyway...


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I can see the utility of xHE-AAC for stuff like digital shortwave radio where most of the content is audio so there are savings to be had
Well, we're currently stuck with HE-AAC 64 kbits which is honestly fine for dialogues but absolutely appalling for music. Then again, the fact that we're generally listening to music in the car with a lot of background noise makes the whole thing more forgiving but when I listen to the radio at home on my headsets the artifacts are pretty bad. And sure one could listen to the radio via internet, but the problem is that most companies (like global which handles a huge variety of radio stations) reuse the DAB+ HE-AAC live encode for the web, so...

These are just two examples:

Stream 1 HE-AAC 64 kbits Capital (Music)
Stream 2 HE-AAC 64 kbits LBC (Dialogues)

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Sure, but what happens to all those existing UHD TVs sold the past 8 years that only decode HEVC UHD content?
Nothing 'cause my mind was more oriented towards 8K.
I mean, DTT is a very different world, but currently on satellite we have SD channels still in MPEG-2, FULL HD channels still in H.264 and UHD channels in H.265. It's just natural to think that 8K channels will likely be H.266.

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Old 23rd March 2024, 09:40   #958  |  Link
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What is TVBR?
'AAC True VBR mode' https://github.com/nu774/qaac/wiki/Command-Line-Options
https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph..._AAC#afconvert
There have been some discussions over at HydrogenAudio about whether vbr or tvbr are better.
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Old 25th March 2024, 14:55   #959  |  Link
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Well, we're currently stuck with HE-AAC 64 kbits which is honestly fine for dialogues but absolutely appalling for music. Then again, the fact that we're generally listening to music in the car with a lot of background noise makes the whole thing more forgiving but when I listen to the radio at home on my headsets the artifacts are pretty bad. And sure one could listen to the radio via internet, but the problem is that most companies (like global which handles a huge variety of radio stations) reuse the DAB+ HE-AAC live encode for the web, so...

These are just two examples:

Stream 1 HE-AAC 64 kbits Capital (Music)
Stream 2 HE-AAC 64 kbits LBC (Dialogues)
Yes, in radio broadcasting xHE-AAC might make sense because most of your content is audio. But in video broadcasting, even if we assume xHE-AAC saves you 30kbps per audio stream (a generous estimate), and even if you have 3 languages (audio streams), is a ~0.1Mbps worth of bitrate savings worth the massive compatibility breakage? No, and that's why no video broadcaster uses it (and I hope they don't in the future, but you never know with broadcasters).

But even when it comes to radio broadcasting, it makes you wonder why HE-AAC is suddenly not enough and how many radio channels are too many. There is a compatibility cost to moving to newer formats (for example all those existing DAB+ receivers becoming useless). Digital shortwave radio doesn't have this problem because it's a completely new thing.

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Old 25th March 2024, 16:46   #960  |  Link
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Yes, in radio broadcasting xHE-AAC might make sense because most of your content is audio. But in video broadcasting, even if we assume xHE-AAC saves you 30kbps per audio stream (a generous estimate), and even if you have 3 languages (audio streams), is a ~0.1Mbps worth of bitrate savings worth the massive compatibility breakage? No, and that's why no video broadcaster uses it (and I hope they don't in the future, but you never know with broadcasters).
100 Kbps can matter if targeting mobile devices, and xHE-AAC decode is effectively universal on mobile: Android, iOS, and Fire OS have all supported xHE-AAC decode for a couple of replacement cycles now.

And with new codecs like VVC, we can push video bitrates down enough that audio becomes an increasingly large part of the total payload.
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