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Old 17th November 2021, 22:57   #581  |  Link
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Rate control in general always seems to be one of the biggest bugbears of any prototype encoder. SSIM is a flawed measure but oscillating that much is absolutely going to be visible, the same way Xvid and early versions of x264 worked. It's a painful amount of iteration, trying to optimize for a whole spectrum of use cases and completely unknown upcoming features, so I can understand why it doesn't get as much love as say, a new SIMD optimization that can be directly benched against the C as an immediate improvement.
Yep. Rate Control is one of the most complex and nuanced features of real-world encoders. It's got a lot of psychovisual aspects, not just pure engineering. And choices made in each frame can propagate through the rest of the GOP, and getting that right is super complex. One of the secret weapons of x264 was cu-tree (ctu-tree in x265)
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Old 19th November 2021, 13:50   #582  |  Link
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I hope Multicoreware could talk more about the current state of x266 encoder at IBC 2021!

https://multicorewareinc.com/news/meet-us-at-ibc-2021/

or even better, release x266 0.1 version.
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Old 20th November 2021, 10:28   #583  |  Link
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MediaTek has announced Pentonic 2000 SoC which supports VVC. Finally!
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Old 20th November 2021, 13:47   #584  |  Link
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For me this is the paranoia of the techno of the Asiatic world. Buy 8K 55 "- 98" for your street business as an advertisement. There are no winters so knock the wall over the TV. 4K magnified to 8K has pixels. Oh dear, then we'll add neo qled or evo oled so as not to scare the client off the street.
What for a home user 4K below 48 ". It does not matter most of this technology. Will the creators change old movies on vvc? They will not. Here only fans of mass events benefit.
What about professional 8K cameras when webcam or youtube reigns? For VIPs.
https://www.samsung.com/pl/tvs/qled-tv/highlights/
https://www.lg.com/pl/oled-tv/2021/s...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
I don't know what the Panansonic has in hiding, but in Central Europe it isn't taken into account.
Sony and Sharp used to be the leaders. Where are they on the silk road?

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Old 28th November 2021, 09:25   #585  |  Link
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To play VVC file with VLC.

Download O266 lib, libo266dec.dll file (by tencent): https://multimedia.tencent.com/resources/vvc-player

Put libo266dec.dll file into dir: VLC\plugins\codec

then play *.266 file

But you may see the framerate is incorrect, you need encode with new VVenC build, which has have new --fps switch for exact framerate.

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Old 29th November 2021, 21:23   #586  |  Link
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For me this is the paranoia of the techno of the Asiatic world. Buy 8K 55 "- 98" for your street business as an advertisement. There are no winters so knock the wall over the TV. 4K magnified to 8K has pixels. Oh dear, then we'll add neo qled or evo oled so as not to scare the client off the street.
What for a home user 4K below 48 ". It does not matter most of this technology. Will the creators change old movies on vvc? They will not. Here only fans of mass events benefit.
Optical disc development ended with UHD Blu-ray, so 4K HDR HEVC. But streaming services absolutely adopt new codecs when they have sufficient installed base and compression efficiency improvements to merit it. And encoding is done from a high quality mezzanine, so the content creators don't need to do anything for customers to get the benefit of a new codec.

We won't be watching much H.264/HEVC/VP9 in 10 years!

What about professional 8K cameras when webcam or youtube reigns?[/QUOTE]
Used heavily for premium content creation. YouTube is a slice of the market, but user-generated content as a business pales in comparison to that for premium TV and movies.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 10:58   #587  |  Link
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What about professional 8K cameras when webcam or youtube reigns?
Reign where? Red Monstro 8K cameras have been around for quite some time now ehehehehe
I mean, a major licensors can afford to spend 60k for the camera corpse and a bit more for the lenses etc.
Over here (and keep in mind that we're broadcasters, so our productions are smaller - although we have made some documentaries and tv series and we might have a surprise for Christmas) we're still living with 4K as we're largely based on Canon C300 for documentaries and Arri Alexa LF for TV Series, so I think the major licensors, the big names that populate the market, would have no problem spending the extra buck, going the extra mile and start producing 8K contents soon-ish.

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Old 7th December 2021, 20:20   #588  |  Link
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Reign where? Red Monstro 8K cameras have been around for quite some time now ehehehehe
I mean, a major licensors can afford to spend 60k for the camera corpse and a bit more for the lenses etc.
Over here (and keep in mind that we're broadcasters, so our productions are smaller - although we have made some documentaries and tv series and we might have a surprise for Christmas) we're still living with 4K as we're largely based on Canon C300 for documentaries and Arri Alexa LF for TV Series, so I think the major licensors, the big names that populate the market, would have no problem spending the extra buck, going the extra mile and start producing 8K contents soon-ish.
Do you mean shooting in 8K and post in 4K, or 8K through to a mezzanine file?

Shooting in 8K, sure. That's been happening for a while, and a number of movies and TV shows shot with 8K cameras are already available.

Post and distribution in 8K is a whole other matter, and I'm not aware of any real-world titles using it or even seriously contemplating doing so. The extra costs far outweigh any potential added market value. 4x more pixels mean new monitors (and there aren't any DisplayPort 8K HDR monitors), 4x the storage, 4x the RAM, 4x longer rendering, projectors can't be used for previews, and a whole lot of other hassles. Plus, since 4K and 8K look identical for the 99.9% of premium content that's at 24p, determining that 8K is actually working is a huge challenge.

Valuable 8K is a lot more likely at 120p. But that's pushed the delta up to 20x storage, 20x render time, another generation of studio monitors, etcetera. Moore's Law is a wonderful thing, so even if 20x is impossible today it'll be no big deal in 10-12 years.
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Old 7th December 2021, 22:52   #589  |  Link
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Do you mean shooting in 8K and post in 4K, or 8K through to a mezzanine file?

Shooting in 8K, sure. That's been happening for a while, and a number of movies and TV shows shot with 8K cameras are already available.

Post and distribution in 8K is a whole other matter, and I'm not aware of any real-world titles using it or even seriously contemplating doing so. The extra costs far outweigh any potential added market value. 4x more pixels mean new monitors (and there aren't any DisplayPort 8K HDR monitors), 4x the storage, 4x the RAM, 4x longer rendering, projectors can't be used for previews, and a whole lot of other hassles. Plus, since 4K and 8K look identical for the 99.9% of premium content that's at 24p, determining that 8K is actually working is a huge challenge.

Valuable 8K is a lot more likely at 120p. But that's pushed the delta up to 20x storage, 20x render time, another generation of studio monitors, etcetera. Moore's Law is a wonderful thing, so even if 20x is impossible today it'll be no big deal in 10-12 years.
The part that made Moore's Law such a wonderful thing is dead, and that is that it factored in price. Yes we are still seeing an rather impressive increase in transistor count, but it now comes at a huge price as the cost per transistor for modern advanced nodes is nowhere near what Moore described. This is extra obvious when you look at GPUs (even if we exclude the inflated prices atm), when moor's law was alive and well you could pretty much just wait for semiconductor improvements and get a huge performance increase from just the transistor increase alone at the same manufacturing cost, now we even see new nodes with worse transistor price then prior generations, we can just expect the prices to continue to climb if we want the performance keep scaling from transistors alone.

There are ofc other tech areas that improves on this in other ways, just look at what apple is doing with their silicon and ecosystem, and what you are able to do on those machines in terms of video compared to what was needed for that a couple of years ago. Not that their more recent chips are not impressive when it comes to transistors as well, I think that Apple is in a rather unique situation here; they are so profitable elsewere and has such a huge volume so it wouldnt surprise me if they actually have relatively low margins on these parts.

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Old 8th December 2021, 13:31   #590  |  Link
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just look at what apple is doing with their silicon and ecosystem, and what you are able to do on those machines in terms of video compared to what was needed for that a couple of years ago. Not that their more recent chips are not impressive when it comes to transistors as well, I think that Apple is in a rather unique situation here; they are so profitable elsewere and has such a huge volume so it wouldnt surprise me if they actually have relatively low margins on these parts.
What is Apple doing? They're largely based on ARM CPUs with x86 emulation. Even if the emulation is well done, they will never ever be as efficient as running an x86 application natively and so far ARM isn't really good for video encoding, it just isn't.
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Old 8th December 2021, 18:30   #591  |  Link
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The part that made Moore's Law such a wonderful thing is dead, and that is that it factored in price. Yes we are still seeing an rather impressive increase in transistor count, but it now comes at a huge price as the cost per transistor for modern advanced nodes is nowhere near what Moore described. This is extra obvious when you look at GPUs (even if we exclude the inflated prices atm), when moor's law was alive and well you could pretty much just wait for semiconductor improvements and get a huge performance increase from just the transistor increase alone at the same manufacturing cost, now we even see new nodes with worse transistor price then prior generations, we can just expect the prices to continue to climb if we want the performance keep scaling from transistors alone.

There are ofc other tech areas that improves on this in other ways, just look at what apple is doing with their silicon and ecosystem, and what you are able to do on those machines in terms of video compared to what was needed for that a couple of years ago. Not that their more recent chips are not impressive when it comes to transistors as well, I think that Apple is in a rather unique situation here; they are so profitable elsewere and has such a huge volume so it wouldnt surprise me if they actually have relatively low margins on these parts.
Yeah, no doubt that Moore's Law predictions have changed a bunch. We are still seeing good compute/$ improvements over time, but it comes from an aggregation of improvements, not just more transistors and higher clock speeds anymore.

For the film industry, it can be as much about what's possible as how much it costs. Lots of tools that can do 4Kp24 today simply don't have any way to scale to 8Kp120 at any costs. You can squint and imagine how a cluster of beefy servers chock full of a6000 GPUs and clever tiling software could do the same thing. But unless that software and hardware is available, it just isn't possible. And regressing from real-time previews to "I'm going to render the shot now, should be done after lunch" is a huge deal.

It's the same way you can't buy a gaming rig that can do 8Kp120 for 8x (or 80x) the cost of one that can do 4Kp60. There is only so much parallelism that can be taken advantage of by the underlying software architecture before an Amdahl's law limit gets hit. SLI was never 2x the perf, nor was TLI.
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Old 8th December 2021, 18:52   #592  |  Link
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What is Apple doing? They're largely based on ARM CPUs with x86 emulation. Even if the emulation is well done, they will never ever be as efficient as running an x86 application natively and so far ARM isn't really good for video encoding, it just isn't.
I'm referring to transistors here, were Apple has an CPU architecture that has an very impressive IPC without spending relatively speaking an huge amount of transistors to achieve it. I.e. we can still see impressive technical advancements without Moores Law, and Apples SoC is very much impressive, regardless of how good (or bad) it is for the sw-encoders available atm.

And sw-encoding is not the only factor in the workflow if 8k will become valid or not, I have tried the M1 for video editing 4k HEVC & Prores files, and what that SoC achieves at this powerdraw is simply astounding. And its not just the CPU-cores I'm refering to, it's all the other stuff on the SoC as well in combination with stuff like Metal (or what Intel is doing with oneAPI) that really displays that there is a promising future even without Moores Law.

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Yeah, no doubt that Moore's Law predictions have changed a bunch. We are still seeing good compute/$ improvements over time, but it comes from an aggregation of improvements, not just more transistors and higher clock speeds anymore.
Yeah the breakdown of Dennard scaling isnt helping either :/

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Old 8th December 2021, 18:54   #593  |  Link
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What is Apple doing? They're largely based on ARM CPUs with x86 emulation. Even if the emulation is well done, they will never ever be as efficient as running an x86 application natively and so far ARM isn't really good for video encoding, it just isn't.
The amount of x86 emulation on the M1 processors is dropping rapidly, with lots of native apps already out and more coming.

x265 itself got a bunch of ARM optimization check-ins this year that have more than doubled encoding fps on M1.

Talking to colleagues deep in this stuff, there isn't anything fundamentally better about the x86-64 instruction set for encoding. It's more than Intel and AMD build big beefy CPUs with lots and lots of cores and cache and SIMD.
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Old 8th December 2021, 18:58   #594  |  Link
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I'm referring to transistors here, were Apple has an CPU architecture that has an very impressive IPC without spending relatively speaking an huge amount of transistors to achieve it. I.e. we can still see impressive technical advancements without Moores Law, and Apples SoC is very much impressive, regardless of how good (or bad) it is for the sw-encoders available atm.

And sw-encoding is not the only factor in the workflow if 8k will become valid or not, I have tried the M1 for video editing 4k HEVC & Prores files, and what that SoC achieves at this powerdraw is simply astounding. And its not just the CPU-cores I'm refering to, it's all the other stuff on the SoC as well in combination with stuff like Metal (or what Intel is doing with oneAPI) that really displays that there is a promising future even without Moores Law.
Yeah, making a big desktop-caliber SoC allowed for integration of RAM and high performance GPU in a single chip. And the tight coupling between HW and SW that Apple delivers means that the full capabilities of the new design are leveraged.

A metaphor would be Xbox Series/PS5-only games. They can rely on SSD storage, DirectStorage like SSD to GPU transfers, etc within a tightly defined architecture. Like the M1, they can outperform a general purpose computer setup at a fraction of the cost.
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Old 9th December 2021, 10:44   #595  |  Link
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Lots of tools that can do 4Kp24 today simply don't have any way to scale to 8Kp120 at any costs.
By the way, not really related, but as much as I wanted the proposal for broadcasting PAL 8K to be 100fps and for NTSC 8K to be 120fps, it looks like it's going to be the same as the "old" 4K specs, so 50p and 60p. There's still an argument about 10bit VS 12bit but looks like that one is gonna be scrapped as well and it will still be 10bit.
Nothing official, just rumours, but still...


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x265 itself got a bunch of ARM optimization check-ins this year that have more than doubled encoding fps on M1.
I actually noticed it (no I'm not an Apple user, I just remember seeing the commits and something related in the x265 topic).

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Talking to colleagues deep in this stuff, there isn't anything fundamentally better about the x86-64 instruction set for encoding. It's more than Intel and AMD build big beefy CPUs with lots and lots of cores and cache and SIMD.
Really? I thought ARM were meant for mobile use and had fewer transistors and those transistors were actually made to use the smallest amount of energy as possible at the expense of performances. I also thought they had different registers made just for stuff that you use in a mobile like TLS computations for websites and some ai things for assistants etc. Of course something like an encoder could make use of some of those registers as well for its calculations, hence speeding things up with the manually written intrinsics like x265 has done, but I thought the ARM registers were no match for the x86_64 ones (SSE/AVX). If what you're saying is true, this opens the door to lots of new scenarios.
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Old 10th December 2021, 01:18   #596  |  Link
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Yet another topic where people are talking about a Moore's "Law" when in reality it's never been anything but an observation.
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Old 10th December 2021, 01:22   #597  |  Link
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Bitmovin has released its Annual Video Developer Report for 2021.
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Old 10th December 2021, 02:15   #598  |  Link
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Yet another topic where people are talking about a Moore's "Law" when in reality it's never been anything but an observation.
Indeed. And one which has required a lot of reformulation over the years to keep meaningful.

But the general point that we can anticipate increasing compute/$ for at least a couple more decades is important, even if the rate of improvement is slowing down. Digital media stuff consistently gets some of the biggest generation-on-generation performance/efficiency improvements, as we can leverage a whole lot of SIMD and parallelism.
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Old 10th December 2021, 19:29   #599  |  Link
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Bitmovin has released its Annual Video Developer Report for 2021.
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We conducted the survey from July 7th through August 22nd, 2021. 538 video developers and industry experts from 65 countries participated.

While the Bitmovin Developer Survey is open for everyone to participate and we are posting it industry-wide, we want to preface that the results might be slightly skewed towards the Bitmovin customer base.


Not really useful in terms of the whole industry "codec usage" but for me there were two interesting point.

1. Quality is not even the top 5 features respondent care about. Which is what I have been saying for sometime, if you want higher quality, go higher bitrate or better codec than H.264. It is no longer much a tech issue, but a cost issue.

2. It is not only me and a small group of people screaming for better low latency video. Live Streaming is the one that makes money, and also the one which requires most attention from codec usage.
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Old 11th December 2021, 02:12   #600  |  Link
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I also noted that, for all the pessimism around it, HEVC had a bigger year-on-year market share growth than AV1.

I was pleasantly surprised to see as much AC-4 and MPEG-H as there was as well.
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