New Quantization Matrices - EQM V3 series (last update: 04/02/2005 - V3ULR) - Page 16

Sharktooth · 18th October 2006, 13:41

foxyshadis got it right...

i must say ULR is no longer a good matrix... at least on LCD displays coz they have an ultra-high contrast that will make ULR "sharpening-effect" look ugly and artificial.

G_M_C · 20th October 2006, 08:33

K guys thx for the input. Ill post the 2 matrices I normally choose from, maybe "you as experts" can see if there OK or point me to better ones

henryho_hk · 21st October 2006, 13:03

Sharktooth, would you recommend any alternative to ULR?

Sharktooth · 22nd October 2006, 01:03

V3LR if you want to keep details or jawors 1cd matrix if you want a smooth output.

Teegedeck · 22nd October 2006, 11:01

Hm, LR doesn't reach quite the compression you get from from ULR, I think. It's almost playing in the same league as HR. Perhaps one shouldn't use XviD at all for compression so strong that ULR or Javor's 1CD-matrix are needed.

XviD's output at the low end cannot compare with x264 but I think the illusion of crispness that ULR provides is a neat trick. Do you really like Javor's 1CD better?

Sharktooth · 22nd October 2006, 13:57

Well, LR is not so bad at high quants. However, yes, the ULR crispness IS a trick but since some time, LCD monitors have impossible contrast ratios (600:1 or more) ... so the "trick" is no longer good...

CrashUK · 18th November 2006, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharktooth

Well, LR is not so bad at high quants. However, yes, the ULR crispness IS a trick but since some time, LCD monitors have impossible contrast ratios (600:1 or more) ... so the "trick" is no longer good...

what do you think is best matrix for LCD screens..

Sharktooth · 19th November 2006, 14:40

V3LR or Jawor's 1CD should be fine at low bitrates. For higher bitrates there should be no problems.

halsboss · 2nd January 2007, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharktooth

Description:
This is an EXTREMELY HIGH BITRATE matrix designed for constant quality encodings ONLY. ... It's application is pretty obvious: it's for backing up original material or HD material without using lossless codecs. EQM V3EHR:

Code:

  8   8   9  11  13  13  14  17
  8   8  11  12  13  14  17  18
  9  11  13  13  14  17  17  16
 11  11  13  13  13  17  18  20
 11  13  13  13  16  17  20  24
 13  13  13  16  17  20  24  29
 13  12  13  17  19  23  28  34
 12  13  17  19  23  28  34  41

  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8
  8   8   8   8   8   8   8   8

WARNING: It may not work with some standalones (expecially the ones with ESS chipsets). EDIT: Matrix updated (uhm... completely redesigned) on 05/10/2004.

Some time ago I came across this "Fox matrix" and seek your comment in relation to it and EQM V3EHR... likely pro's and cons (xvid->DVD using HC)

Code:

08 08 09 09 10 10 11 11
08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12
09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12
09 10 10 11 11 12 13 13
10 10 11 11 12 13 13 14
10 11 11 12 13 13 14 15
11 11 12 13 13 14 15 15
11 12 12 13 14 15 15 16

08 08 09 09 10 10 11 11
08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12
09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12
09 10 10 11 11 12 13 13
10 10 11 11 12 13 13 14
10 11 11 12 13 13 14 15
11 11 12 13 13 14 15 15
11 12 12 13 14 15 15 16

Hmm, http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...689#post748689 says the Fox Home Entertainment Matrix is

Code:

08 08 09 11 13 13 14 17
08 08 11 12 13 14 17 18
09 11 13 13 14 17 17 19
11 11 13 13 13 17 18 20
11 13 13 13 16 17 20 24
13 13 13 16 17 20 24 29
13 12 13 17 19 23 28 34
12 13 17 19 23 28 34 41

08 08 08 09 09 09 09 10
08 08 09 09 09 09 10 10
08 09 09 09 09 10 10 10
09 09 09 09 10 10 10 10
09 09 09 10 10 10 10 11
09 09 10 10 10 10 11 11
09 10 10 10 10 11 11 11
10 10 10 10 11 11 11 11

... anyone know so which is the latest "real" Fox Matrix ?
Edit 2: Searching finally located it...
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...287#post866287 says of the 1st of these 2 Fox matrices

Quote:

Originally Posted by feedback

Fox 2 now comes in HC 018 encoder zip which you can get from doom9's download section...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...321#post759321 was the original source for me and said

Quote:

Originally Posted by manono

Here's what Fox DVDs use these days, in case you're interested:

Sharro · 20th January 2007, 15:41

Hi Everybody and Sharktooth,

Sorry to bump in here, I've read the whole thread and didn't find anything that could kill my curiosity.

I've been using hvs-best for quite a few years (damn I'm getting old) and I'm willing to test at least one of your cqm but I need some directions.

Basically I encode at animations (pixar, dreamworks, etc) which compress quite well at bitrates > 1300kbps and resolutions >= 640, lanczosresize and ocasionaly Undot, unfilter or lumafilter.

Which of your cqms should I start with ?

EDIT: Hmppfff, read this thread...didn't read the other... I should definetly start with HR and LR. Any known compatibility problems with standalones ?

Any help appreciated.

All the best,

Sharro

HeadBangeR77 · 20th January 2007, 16:16

From my limited experience, I would say you should give v3HR a try - for my needs it smooths a bit too much, but for your content should be just fine (considering the bitrate & resolution you've given). It is still less compresable than HVS-Best Picture, though the difference is rather small, and depends of course on the content you encode.

Why don't you try some sample clips, one pass, constant quantizer (2 or 3)? I've done hundreds of samples like that and it prooved useful for future encodings.

Hope I've helped a bit, cheers
HDBR77

Sharktooth · 20th January 2007, 16:48

HR may have standalone compatibility issues.
To fix them just replace all "15"s with "16"s in the inter-matrix.

Sharro · 20th January 2007, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadBangeR77

...for my needs it smooths a bit too much...still less compresable than HVS-Best Picture, though the difference is rather small...

Why don't you try some sample clips, one pass, constant quantizer (2 or 3)? I've done hundreds of samples like that and it prooved useful for future encodings.

HDBR77

The HVS-Best/SharktoothCQM difference in size is exactly one of my curiosities.

I never encode a movie without 2 or 3 tries, I'll run a few first passes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharktooth

HR may have standalone compatibility issues.
To fix them just replace all "15"s with "16"s in the inter-matrix.

Thanks for the info.

EDIT:

Just tried a 2 pass encode with didee's 6of9 to test in my standalones together with Heini's (with inter-matrix 15's replaced by 16's), results:

Philips DVP720SA/02
===Heini's Intermatrix Min 16 -> perfect play
===Didee's SixOfNive hvs -> artifacts on video (blocks)

Philips DVP5960/12
===Heini's Intermatrix Min 16 -> perfect play
===Didee's SixOfNive hvs -> perfect play

Video was 704x288 pixels Xvid 2BF, QP, PB, Chroma Optimizer, Trellis with 1593Kbps set for the second pass

So for the time being I'll have to stick with Heini's IM Min 16. I'll also try it on a Yamada 6700 plus and revert.

END EDIT

HeadBangeR77 · 20th January 2007, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharktooth

HR may have standalone compatibility issues.
To fix them just replace all "15"s with "16"s in the inter-matrix.

Thank you, good to know that.

@ Sharro
Sample clip form "The Curse of the Black Pearl", NTSC 23.976, 672x288, 12951 frames:

1) MSP=5, VHQ=1, VHQ for B-frames, Chroma ME, Turbo, Trellis, Chroma opt., B-frames 2/1.62/0 (goes very quickly, good for testing CQMs

)
a) MPEG default QM @ Q2 : 101 MB, 1564 kbps
b) HVS Best Picture @ Q2 : 102 MB, 1588 kbps
c) Sharktooth's V3 HR @ Q2 : 118 MB, 1829 kbps
d) Heini's MR (V3 mod) @ Q2 : 120 MB, 1865 kbps

2) MSP=6, VHQ=3, VHQ for B-frames, Chroma ME, no Turbo, QPEL, Trellis, Chroma opt., B-frames 2/1.62/0 (slooow in comparison to the above

)
a) MPEG default QM @ Q2 : 106 MB, 1651 kbps
b) HVS Best Picture @ Q2 : 108 MB, 1677 kbps
c) Sharktooth's V3 HR @ Q2 : 123 MB, 1915 kbps
d) Heini's MR (V3 mod) @ Q2 : 126 MB, 1955 kbps

To give Sharktooth his credits, the V3 LR one gave at quantizer 2:
93.5 MB (1448 kbps) and 98.3 MB (1522 kbps) for the above sample-encodes, what places it somewhere in between H.263 and standard MPEG.

Sharro · 20th January 2007, 22:12

Well...after 2 different full 2 pass encodes on animations...where checking against the 1st pass size of HeadBanger77 I also got to 14 to 15% difference against HVS-Best, so slightly worst quant average on the second pass... I've thrown away the numbers and looked at the visual quality by doing a stack vertical...

Sharktooth

.

Much more detail retained and overall better looking, certainly a great option for 2 cd rips of animation with 2 AC3 tracks.

Now I have just to test in my standalone.

I'll revert.

All the best,

Sharro

Sharro · 23rd January 2007, 00:37

Hi Guys,

No problems with Standalone Philips DVP5960/12 using HR matrix after following Sharktooth inter-matrix advice.

Errr...as I don't like encoding, for fun I'm redoing my encodes with Colormatrix, damn...Xvid at full...that's going Slllloooowwww.

I've noticed a difference of "brightness" expected amongst different CQM's, specially in red color, do my eyes betray me for staring too much at different scenes ?

All the best,

Sharro

BigDid · 23rd January 2007, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharro

Hi Guys,

No problems with Standalone Philips DVP5960/12 using HR matrix after following Sharktooth inter-matrix advice.

Errr...as I don't like encoding, for fun I'm redoing my encodes with Colormatrix, damn...Xvid at full...that's going Slllloooowwww.

I've noticed a difference of "brightness" expected amongst different CQM's, specially in red color, do my eyes betray me for staring too much at different scenes ?

All the best,

Sharro

Hi,

While you are comparing you may want to try the V3HR modded by Heini a few posts up in this page. I had good results with it and same tip applies for SAP compatibility ( replace all "15" and below "15" with "16" in the inter-matrix): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...722#post854722

Did

HeadBangeR77 · 23rd January 2007, 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDid

While you are comparing you may want to try the V3HR modded by Heini a few posts up in this page. I had good results with it and same tip applies for SAP compatibility ( replace all "15" and below "15" with "16" in the inter-matrix): http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...722#post854722

That's one of my favourites! Just slightly less compressable than Sharktooth's original one, and gives more crispy, sharp look, at least IMHO

I will edit my post above to add it to the list.

@ Sharro
Good to know the trick works for standalones

As to the brightness, I haven't marked anything like that, but I encode too rare to spot such a difference. Are you sure you haven't switched rendering mode in your fav player or output color space?

Red is always tricky - that's why I don't watch anything in YV12, unless I have to. Some terrible color-bleeding there, brrrr!

cheers,
HDBR77

Sharro · 23rd January 2007, 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadBangeR77

That's one of my favourites! ...@ Sharro
Good to know the trick works for standalones

As to the brightness, I haven't marked anything like that, but I encode too rare to spot such a difference. Are you sure you haven't switched rendering mode in your fav player or output color space?

Red is always tricky - that's why I don't watch anything in YV12, unless I have to. Some terrible color-bleeding there, brrrr!

cheers,
HDBR77

My doubts come from a stackvertical of the d2v with either hvs or v3hr but the "brightness" efect was more noticeable on v3hr.

I didn't had time to check this nights encode (HR with Colormatrix(0,2,d2v="***.d2v",threads=2) as it might have helped the color-bleeding.

I'll roll a few encodes within today and tomorrow and I'll certainly give a try to Heini's V3HR mod.

All the best,

Sharro

HeadBangeR77 · 25th January 2007, 04:53

OT:

1) Watch the same by forcing HQ YV12=>RGB32 conversion or just force YUY2 colorspace.
2) I've tried Colormatrix and I'm not happy with its results, with all the respect to the creator. First, it oversaturates red and human faces, imo. Second, it is forcing tv-scale (not full colors' range) by default, what I don't like especially (washed-out colors, dimmed image). Just a few ideas

18th October 2006, 13:41	#301 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 11,768	foxyshadis got it right... i must say ULR is no longer a good matrix... at least on LCD displays coz they have an ultra-high contrast that will make ULR "sharpening-effect" look ugly and artificial. __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

22nd October 2006, 01:03	#304 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 11,768	V3LR if you want to keep details or jawors 1cd matrix if you want a smooth output. __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

22nd October 2006, 11:01	#305 \| Link
Teegedeck Moderator, Ex(viD)-Mascot Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 2,564	Hm, LR doesn't reach quite the compression you get from from ULR, I think. It's almost playing in the same league as HR. Perhaps one shouldn't use XviD at all for compression so strong that ULR or Javor's 1CD-matrix are needed. XviD's output at the low end cannot compare with x264 but I think the illusion of crispness that ULR provides is a neat trick. Do you really like Javor's 1CD better? __________________ It's a man's life in Doom9's 52nd MPEG division. "The cat sat on the mat." ATM I'm thoroughly enjoying the Banshee - a fantastic music player/ripper for Linux. Give it a whirl!

22nd October 2006, 13:57	#306 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 11,768	Well, LR is not so bad at high quants. However, yes, the ULR crispness IS a trick but since some time, LCD monitors have impossible contrast ratios (600:1 or more) ... so the "trick" is no longer good... __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

19th November 2006, 14:40	#308 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 11,768	V3LR or Jawor's 1CD should be fine at low bitrates. For higher bitrates there should be no problems. __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

20th October 2006, 08:33	#302 \| Link
G_M_C Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,076	K guys thx for the input. Ill post the 2 matrices I normally choose from, maybe "you as experts" can see if there OK or point me to better ones

21st October 2006, 13:03	#303 \| Link
henryho_hk Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 889	Sharktooth, would you recommend any alternative to ULR?

20th January 2007, 15:41	#310 \| Link
Sharro Xvid Tribalistic Fan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Portugal Posts: 270	Hi Everybody and Sharktooth, Sorry to bump in here, I've read the whole thread and didn't find anything that could kill my curiosity. I've been using hvs-best for quite a few years (damn I'm getting old) and I'm willing to test at least one of your cqm but I need some directions. Basically I encode at animations (pixar, dreamworks, etc) which compress quite well at bitrates > 1300kbps and resolutions >= 640, lanczosresize and ocasionaly Undot, unfilter or lumafilter. Which of your cqms should I start with ? EDIT: Hmppfff, read this thread...didn't read the other... I should definetly start with HR and LR. Any known compatibility problems with standalones ? Any help appreciated. All the best, Sharro Last edited by Sharro; 20th January 2007 at 16:25.

20th January 2007, 16:16	#311 \| Link
HeadBangeR77 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Heidelberg (DE), Kraków (PL) Posts: 519	From my limited experience, I would say you should give v3HR a try - for my needs it smooths a bit too much, but for your content should be just fine (considering the bitrate & resolution you've given). It is still less compresable than HVS-Best Picture, though the difference is rather small, and depends of course on the content you encode. Why don't you try some sample clips, one pass, constant quantizer (2 or 3)? I've done hundreds of samples like that and it prooved useful for future encodings. Hope I've helped a bit, cheers HDBR77 __________________ "Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

20th January 2007, 16:48	#312 \| Link
Sharktooth Mr. Sandman Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Haddonfield, IL Posts: 11,768	HR may have standalone compatibility issues. To fix them just replace all "15"s with "16"s in the inter-matrix. __________________ MPEG-4 ASP Custom Matrices: EQM V1(old), EQM AutoGK Sharpmatrix (aka EQM V2), EQM V3HR (updated 01/10/2004), EQM V3LR, EQM V3ULR (updated 04/02/2005), EQM V3UHR (updated 17/12/2004) and EQM V3EHR (updated 05/10/2004) Info about my ASP matrices. MPEG-4 AVC Custom Matrices: EQM AVC-HR Info about my AVC matrices My x264 builds. Mooo!!!

20th January 2007, 22:12	#315 \| Link
Sharro Xvid Tribalistic Fan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Portugal Posts: 270	Well...after 2 different full 2 pass encodes on animations...where checking against the 1st pass size of HeadBanger77 I also got to 14 to 15% difference against HVS-Best, so slightly worst quant average on the second pass... I've thrown away the numbers and looked at the visual quality by doing a stack vertical... Sharktooth . Much more detail retained and overall better looking, certainly a great option for 2 cd rips of animation with 2 AC3 tracks. Now I have just to test in my standalone. I'll revert. All the best, Sharro

23rd January 2007, 00:37	#316 \| Link
Sharro Xvid Tribalistic Fan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Portugal Posts: 270	Hi Guys, No problems with Standalone Philips DVP5960/12 using HR matrix after following Sharktooth inter-matrix advice. Errr...as I don't like encoding, for fun I'm redoing my encodes with Colormatrix, damn...Xvid at full...that's going Slllloooowwww. I've noticed a difference of "brightness" expected amongst different CQM's, specially in red color, do my eyes betray me for staring too much at different scenes ? All the best, Sharro Last edited by Sharro; 23rd January 2007 at 00:43.

25th January 2007, 04:53	#320 \| Link
HeadBangeR77 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Heidelberg (DE), Kraków (PL) Posts: 519	OT: 1) Watch the same by forcing HQ YV12=>RGB32 conversion or just force YUY2 colorspace. 2) I've tried Colormatrix and I'm not happy with its results, with all the respect to the creator. First, it oversaturates red and human faces, imo. Second, it is forcing tv-scale (not full colors' range) by default, what I don't like especially (washed-out colors, dimmed image). Just a few ideas __________________ "Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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