Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 4th February 2018, 23:34   #48821  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatista View Post
Hi Madshi,

is there any possibility madvr would be able to downconvert video in 4k rec.2020 (or DCI-p3) color format to to 1080 resolution in x.v.Color (eg xvYCC, or Extended-gamut YCC)

there are a significant number of higher end 1080 pannels who can display x.v.Color (which is very close to the rec2020 color space), allowing those users to potentially benefit from the higher color detail/quality found in 4k UHD bluray (in addition to the 4k YUV 4.2.0 to 4k RGB 4.4.4 conversion step you have already implemented, before the 4k video is down converted to 1080 10 bit)
x.v.color is not very close to BT2020, it's an extension of rec-709 that has no standard (it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer). With some manufacturers, it's a joke. For example, many Sony projectors reach barely more than rec-709 in x.v.color because they don't have a DCI-P3 filter. JVC projectors with a P3 filter do better. In any case, it's not possible to calibrate to x.v.color because it doesn't have any coordinates (it's entirely relative to rec-709 and dependent on each display's implementation), so I highly doubt that Madshi could do something like this.

You should use the native gamut of the display and create a 3D LUT to BT2020 or DCI-P3 if your display doesn't have a BT2020 or P3 mode. What matters most isn't the saturation at 100%, it's the way saturation will track within the gamut. You can get very decent results even with a display not able to reach much more than rec-709 as long as the saturations are tracking BT-2020.
__________________
Win11 Pro x64 b23H2
Ryzen 5950X@4.5Ghz 32Gb@3600 Zotac 3090 24Gb 551.33
madVR/LAV/jRiver/MyMovies/CMC
Denon X8500HA>HD Fury VRRoom>TCL 55C805K
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2018, 23:44   #48822  |  Link
MS-DOS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 77
madshi, I don't recall if you answered this already, do you plan moving black bars detection to GPU?
MS-DOS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 01:55   #48823  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by LigH View Post
Code:
* added option "use reduce compression artifacts only if it comes for free"


Documented to work with NGU resampling; so I tried it with medium AA option. Looks quite good in a rather dark video. Not sure if really fluid, though. I'll test further from here on...

it's never free with AA only with soft, standard and sharp.
maybe AA should be renamed so it is not so misleading and unlike the other NGU algorithm quite different.

and it's quite an "issue" for me because i'm generally favouring AA for bad sources that need RCA.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 02:54   #48824  |  Link
zapatista
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I highly doubt that Madshi could do something like this.

You should use the native gamut of the display and create a 3D LUT to BT2020 or DCI-P3
thank you for the answer and the clear explanation (even if i dont yet understand it fully)

i should have been a little more precise in my original wording
- most current tv models with UHD displays using rec.2020 can still not display the full range of this color space ( or the full range of DCI-P3 ), and in their specs this is quantified in a %
- for ex a 2015 higher end samsung UHD tv (model 65JS9500) (using rec.2020) can still only display 91% coverage of DCI-P3 colour gamut
- in comparison, my 1080p sony tv panel (with HD using rec.709) is able to display 94.7% of the DCI-P3 colour space (using the x.v.color setting i presume), and it can accept this signal over HDMI input (and my HTPC can output x.v.color)
- DCI-3 gamut and the x.v.color gamut are VERY similar in size (but use slightly different primaries)


so if i can convert a 4k video (yuv 4.2.0 10 bit) to 4k RGB 4.4.4, and then in the last conversion step (resolution 4k to 2k) i am hoping to maintain as much of the original color information by converting the rec.2020 UHD color gamut % used by the original file, to x.v.color at the highest % my display can cope with (instead of squashing it into rec.709)

i dont really know what Lut's are or how i can use them ( ? look up tables for the RGB primaries used by the display ?), i was hoping the conversion from UHD video to HD (but in x.v.color instead of rec.709 ) could do this in madvr

is there an easy way i can find out my tv model x.v.color primaries, and then create a 3D lut file, and then load it in madvr ? or would it be possible to enter my information directly into madvr maybe
Attached Images
 
zapatista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 03:29   #48825  |  Link
JarrettH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 860
I read this in the other thread about madvr settings.

Quote:
run RCA as part of NGU, if possible: [Enabled] Combines most of the work required for 'reduce compression artifacts' into NGU Sharp upscaling for a large performance advantage when both are run at the same time.
With this option enabled medium quality forces NGU Sharp to high and high quality forces NGU Sharp to very high.
Why is there this behaviour? So it's only free if you can run NGU high or NGU very high? I run NGU luma medium, and yep it forces it to high, which I can't do.

Last edited by JarrettH; 5th February 2018 at 05:11.
JarrettH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 03:58   #48826  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
That option has been removed now. I don't think that the requirements have changed.. Still NGU/NGU sharp high/very high.

I believe madshi was looking to add RCA for free with NGU AA it's just as huhn said quite different so requires extra code.

Last edited by ryrynz; 5th February 2018 at 04:22.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 05:59   #48827  |  Link
har3inger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 139
To clarify:

When RCA tries to run for free, will it still run on NGU'd chroma channel, if the luma channel is not scaled by NGU/already full res native? Does the checkbox "process chroma as well" do anything when the algo tries to run for free?
har3inger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 08:12   #48828  |  Link
Sebastiii
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: France
Posts: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clammerz View Post
Wrong thread. This is for MadVR. Not LAVFilters.
From madVR itself and happening on both different player.
But to be sure will switch on EVR to confirm it at 100%
__________________
HTPC : i7 920 6Go Win10(x64) / Nvidia 1050Ti / P6T Deluxe / Harman-Kardon AVR-355.
Sebastiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 08:15   #48829  |  Link
Sebastiii
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: France
Posts: 615
Confirmed it comes from madVR and the OSD message in left upper corner is the same font as when changing madVR option from keyboard shorcut, so yes @Clammerz i'm right to asking this here
__________________
HTPC : i7 920 6Go Win10(x64) / Nvidia 1050Ti / P6T Deluxe / Harman-Kardon AVR-355.
Sebastiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 08:20   #48830  |  Link
Sebastiii
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: France
Posts: 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Weird. You should get that message if you use an outdated LAV build (because some older versions produced crashes). But you should not get it with a recent nightly. What exact version number does your "LAVSplitter.ax" file have?
Hi
Thanks for the new build will try asap
So the version from LAVSplitter is on older one, so you are right, i have installed a tool this week-end that install on older version of LAV suite.
Sorry, that's shame that i didn't look into it myself.

LAVAudio and LAVVideo was the correct version but not LAVSplitter.
__________________
HTPC : i7 920 6Go Win10(x64) / Nvidia 1050Ti / P6T Deluxe / Harman-Kardon AVR-355.
Sebastiii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 08:37   #48831  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
madVR is displaying it but it's your player providing it as LAV nor MadVR give any prompts to update, so.. not appropriate here. Ideally anything video related should be as up to date as possible anyway.
For those serious about video playback the nightly life is a well tread path. Given the changes in LAV and the time since last release it's probably not far off a "stable" release
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 09:02   #48832  |  Link
LigH
German doom9/Gleitz SuMo
 
LigH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany, rural Altmark
Posts: 6,753
@huhn + @JarrettH (etc.); I joined this topic late, and reading 2440+ pages back will take time.
__________________

New German Gleitz board
MediaFire: x264 | x265 | VPx | AOM | Xvid
LigH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 10:36   #48833  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS-DOS View Post
I don't recall if you answered this already, do you plan moving black bars detection to GPU?
At some point, probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it's never free with AA only with soft, standard and sharp.
maybe AA should be renamed so it is not so misleading and unlike the other NGU algorithm quite different.

and it's quite an "issue" for me because i'm generally favouring AA for bad sources that need RCA.
Actually, RCA currently only comes for free when using NGU *Sharp*. It's not yet supported for AA, Soft or Standard. Of course it would be nice to have support for all of them, but it's a LOT of work, so it will take time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatista View Post
thank you for the answer and the clear explanation (even if i dont yet understand it fully)

i should have been a little more precise in my original wording
- most current tv models with UHD displays using rec.2020 can still not display the full range of this color space ( or the full range of DCI-P3 ), and in their specs this is quantified in a %
- for ex a 2015 higher end samsung UHD tv (model 65JS9500) (using rec.2020) can still only display 91% coverage of DCI-P3 colour gamut
- in comparison, my 1080p sony tv panel (with HD using rec.709) is able to display 94.7% of the DCI-P3 colour space (using the x.v.color setting i presume), and it can accept this signal over HDMI input (and my HTPC can output x.v.color)
- DCI-3 gamut and the x.v.color gamut are VERY similar in size (but use slightly different primaries)

so if i can convert a 4k video (yuv 4.2.0 10 bit) to 4k RGB 4.4.4, and then in the last conversion step (resolution 4k to 2k) i am hoping to maintain as much of the original color information by converting the rec.2020 UHD color gamut % used by the original file, to x.v.color at the highest % my display can cope with (instead of squashing it into rec.709)

i dont really know what Lut's are or how i can use them ( ? look up tables for the RGB primaries used by the display ?), i was hoping the conversion from UHD video to HD (but in x.v.color instead of rec.709 ) could do this in madvr

is there an easy way i can find out my tv model x.v.color primaries, and then create a 3D lut file, and then load it in madvr ? or would it be possible to enter my information directly into madvr maybe
x.v.color is not really supported well on HTPCs (or displays, properly). It's a weird standard, and I have no interest even trying to make it work.

However, if you have a meter, you can switch your TV into the most "native" mode it supports (whichever produces the widest colors/gamut) and then use a 3DLUT to calibrate it for BT.2020 content. Your TV doesn't even know it's receiving BT.2020 data. You should get the max out of your TV that way. Won't be possible without a meter, though. And with a meter you'll have to dive into the depths of calibration software, which can be a little scary sometimes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
To clarify:

When RCA tries to run for free, will it still run on NGU'd chroma channel, if the luma channel is not scaled by NGU/already full res native? Does the checkbox "process chroma as well" do anything when the algo tries to run for free?
Good question. I think it should actually work as you hope it would. You can verify by using an extremely high RCA strength and then check if you see any changes in the chroma channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastiii View Post
So the version from LAVSplitter is on older one, so you are right, i have installed a tool this week-end that install on older version of LAV suite.
Haha, got ya!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
madVR is displaying it but it's your player providing it as LAV nor MadVR give any prompts to update
Actually, this is a rare exception. I've recently added detection for a specific range of old LAV builds, because I regularly received crash reports caused by them. So this specific hint actually comes from madVR. It's not a regular "just so you know, there's a new build available, would you like to update" message. It's just a detection for a specific very old unstable LAV version.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 11:00   #48834  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Actually, RCA currently only comes for free when using NGU *Sharp*. It's not yet supported for AA, Soft or Standard. Of course it would be nice to have support for all of them, but it's a LOT of work, so it will take time.
see it's confusing :-)
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 11:09   #48835  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
see it's confusing :-)
Yes, it is. But I can't magically make it work by just changing some code lines quickly. Each RCA strength with each NGU version with each NGU quality level is its own separate algorithm. If you multiply the variants you'll see how crazy much work that is. You can already look at how the madVR.ax file size has increased in recent versions. It's all due to the high number of new algorithms, due to combining NGU Sharp + RCA.
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 11:22   #48836  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
that's not what my point is it's the line "as part of NGU".

changing it to NGU sharp and it may help.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 13:11   #48837  |  Link
Axelpowa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, it is. But I can't magically make it work by just changing some code lines quickly. Each RCA strength with each NGU version with each NGU quality level is its own separate algorithm. If you multiply the variants you'll see how crazy much work that is. You can already look at how the madVR.ax file size has increased in recent versions. It's all due to the high number of new algorithms, due to combining NGU Sharp + RCA.
Hi madshi!

Regarding this topic of ngu sharp + rca, must we check the rca option too?

If I do so the rendering times increase a lot (like 55ms) and the movies in UHD dont play smooth, start dropping a lot of frames.

I use a nvidia gtx 1080.

Regards!
Axelpowa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 13:42   #48838  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Yeah, you should have 'activate only if it comes for free as part of NGU' as well in your case.
Also remember that NGU gets bumped up to high/very high as well that's likely the cause for the render time increases.

Last edited by ryrynz; 5th February 2018 at 13:45.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 13:45   #48839  |  Link
vinnytx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 46
Is it possible activating a profile with a keyboard shortcut?
vinnytx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th February 2018, 13:50   #48840  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Yeah it's right under the profile name field once you create one.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.