Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Video Encoding > New and alternative video codecs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 24th January 2023, 14:36   #741  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
I've not noticed any perceivable compression artifacts, the bitrate is outright insane, for the file that I downloaded, it's 1 332 878 kb/s, which surely looks like compression, if there is any, is minimal.

4K Bluray has around 75Mbps bitrate - files from the observatory are ~ 18 times denser.
Yeah, they're called mezzanine files. It's what professional broadcast studios use internally.
For instance, you might have Grass Valley playout ports that play such a file and then output a signal via SDI. Such a signal is then received by an hardware encoder which encodes it as either MPEG-2 for SD channels, H.264 for HD/FULL HD channels and H.265 for UHD channels at consumer tier bitrates, generally around 2.5 Mbit/s for MPEG-2, 12 Mbit/s for H.264 FHD and 25 Mbit/s for H.265 UHD.
Internally, though, it's really not uncommon to see those kind of mezzanine files used and stored/archived.
Keep in mind that what users see is not what studios archive.
As I said, AVID systems use DNxHR, which is quite similar and can reach similar bitrates.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2023, 21:02   #742  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
The codec used is hqx (CHQX / 0x58514843), yuv422p16le(10 bpc) - no idea what it is, but it must be uncompressed.
Uncompressed 3840x2160 10 bpc @ 25 fps is 6220800 kbps (10 x 3 x 3840 x 2160 x 25). 1332878 kb/s is 4.67 times smaller. A very light compression ratio for video, but still compressed.
__________________
madVR options explained
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2023, 21:11   #743  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Uncompressed 3840x2160 10 bpc @ 25 fps is 6220800 kbps (10 x 3 x 3840 x 2160 x 25). 1332878 kb/s is 4.67 times smaller. A very light compression ratio for video, but still compressed.
Yeah, lossless compressed HEVC is only 2-3x larger. We have a ton of peer-reviewed data about mezzanine codecs not impacting final video quality visibly after dozens of generations of reencodes.
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2023, 19:11   #744  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
The biggest takeaway from today's MulticoreWare x266 webinar: the codec has actively been developed, it's not ready yet, version 1.0 will be released as open source in the second half of this year. The webinar will be published later.

The codec is developed from scratch, i.e. code from VVenc and the VTM reference coder is not used but consulted with.

ffmpeg integration is absolutely planned.

A lot more was said and shared but I wasn't paying enough attention.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2023, 20:39   #745  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
A lot more was said and shared but I wasn't paying enough attention.
I'll share the slide later

Last edited by FranceBB; 1st February 2023 at 01:09.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2023, 00:39   #746  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
I'll share the slides later
Looking forward to them!
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2023, 01:28   #747  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,883
It's still early stages, but x266 is currently 13.3 times faster than VTM15 using the same input sources (tested with both FULL HD and UHD materials) and settings thanks to the manually written asm, however it requires about 5% more bitrate. This is with lossy encoding, however it will also support lossless encoding. It's not open source yet but it will supposedly be in Q2 2023 although there's no official date just yet. Once it will, it will take a bit more time to implement a few more stuff 'till version 2.0, then the ffmpeg implementation will probably happen. Down the line GPU acceleration will also be something that will be looked into, however it won't be OpenCL lookahead like we had in x264, but something new entirely and probably CUDA based but it's really too early to tell.
This is the exciting official roadmap (in green it's what has already been done):



I'm surprised not to see you at the zoom meeting, Ben.
I would share the slides from the meeting but I just noticed that it says "confidential - limited distribution", so I guess you'll have to wait for the multicoreware guys themselves to upload them.

Last edited by FranceBB; 1st February 2023 at 01:42.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2023, 10:51   #748  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
I would share the slides from the meeting but I just noticed that it says "confidential - limited distribution", so I guess you'll have to wait for the multicoreware guys themselves to upload them.
Weirdly they never mentioned whether the webinar was public or under some sort of NDA. Considering they repeated multiple times that they would release it publicly, I guess there's nothing confidential about it.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 21:15   #749  |  Link
poisondeathray
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
Down the line GPU acceleration will also be something that will be looked into, however it won't be OpenCL lookahead like we had in x264, but something new entirely and probably CUDA based but it's really too early to tell.
probably CUDA? Was that mentioned in the presentation or other slides?

Green team would be happy, but I doubt AMD / Intel / ARM/ Apple/ everyone else / would be happy

Thanks for the info & progress update
poisondeathray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2023, 22:14   #750  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
probably CUDA? Was that mentioned in the presentation or other slides?
No mention of CUDA in the slides, just a very vague "GPU hardware acceleration" as things that will be looked into, so I asked the question myself on whether it will be OpenCL or other open initiatives or CUDA.
They said that it's still really far too early to tell, v1.0 is barely there and a lot of coding tools + CPU Assembly optimizations need to be added before we'll even start to talk about that, however they said that given that NVIDIA has some nice things they can leverage on, they MIGHT consider CUDA.



Quote:
Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
Thanks for the info & progress update
No problem, it's something I care about and I really look forward to gets my hands dirty and make some real comparisons myself as soon as the first build is out.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2023, 23:21   #751  |  Link
benwaggoner
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
II'm surprised not to see you at the zoom meeting, Ben.
My scope is really anything between lens to cornea and mic to eardrum these days, so I'm always terribly neglecting two things whenever I'm paying attention to one .
__________________
Ben Waggoner
Principal Video Specialist, Amazon Prime Video

My Compression Book
benwaggoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2023, 22:18   #752  |  Link
DTL
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
No mention of CUDA in the slides, just a very vague "GPU hardware acceleration" as things that will be looked into, so I asked the question myself on whether it will be OpenCL or other open initiatives
As from some version of Microsoft DX12 at the beginning of 202x the motion estimation data from hardware MPEG encoder ASIC is now available as operation system API service (AMD/NVIDIA and in some time Intel accelerators independent) I hope the designers of MPEG codecs may finally start to use it. At least as some starting point of motion estimation with possible onCPU refinement. Though even in its initial release ME API have full mature precision of 1/4 pel. The progress may be with quality of motion vectors in the future ASIC releases (more correct MVs with naturally noised sources and many-frame analysis instead of current 2-frames only).

Last edited by DTL; 10th February 2023 at 22:21.
DTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2023, 18:08   #753  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
FOSDEM 2023 VVEnc/VVDec presentation:

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Open-Source-VVC-H266
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 08:17   #754  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
A patch series to support vvdec in ffmpeg has been submitted for the third time.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 12:23   #755  |  Link
FranceBB
Broadcast Encoder
 
FranceBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea, UK
Posts: 2,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
A patch series to support vvdec in ffmpeg has been submitted for the third time.
And knowing the AV1 fanboys in the ffmpeg community, it will probably be rejected again, although I sincerely hope that it won't. I even tried to reach out to them everywhere before, but I couldn't convince them...

Last edited by FranceBB; 13th February 2023 at 12:25.
FranceBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 13:07   #756  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
And knowing the AV1 fanboys in the ffmpeg community, it will probably be rejected again, although I sincerely hope that it won't. I even tried to reach out to them everywhere before, but I couldn't convince them...
They [ffmpeg project] don't have the manpower to review the patches. That's the only reason they've not been merged. They have not been rejected.

I want to compile the upcoming FFMPeg 6.0 release with these patches and start experimenting with VVC a lot more. I love the codec ;-)

Last edited by birdie; 13th February 2023 at 14:26.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 14:35   #757  |  Link
quietvoid
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Canada
Posts: 570
I'm not sure but I think the reason is mostly that a native decoder in FFmpeg is preferable, and it is already an ongoing project.
So there isn't much point to adding vvdec, at least IMO.
__________________
LG C2 OLED | GitHub Projects
quietvoid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 17:48   #758  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
And knowing the AV1 fanboys in the ffmpeg community, it will probably be rejected again, although I sincerely hope that it won't. I even tried to reach out to them everywhere before, but I couldn't convince them...
You really have no clue what you are talking about.

None of these patches were ever actually "rejected" at all, having a large patch set go through various iterations is entirely normal part of development, as reviews point out problems and improvements. This is just how the development process works. Large patchsets rarely get merged on the first try, even less so if they are from external contributors or companies, since those don't necessarily know all the details to make it work perfectly without review. It may be going slow as review bandwidth is limited, but there certainly was no rejection, and just the normal development process going on.

And as pointed out above, a native VVC decoder for ffmpeg is actually in development as well, independent of vvdec or other external libraries.

Contrary to some other projects, development of new features does not happen inside the main ffmpeg tree. So unfinished/in-progress things don't just get merged unless they are considered "finished", at least to a degree of being usable and not making future changes harder.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

Last edited by nevcairiel; 13th February 2023 at 18:01.
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 18:04   #759  |  Link
birdie
Artem S. Tashkinov
 
birdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by quietvoid View Post
I'm not sure but I think the reason is mostly that a native decoder in FFmpeg is preferable, and it is already an ongoing project.
So there isn't much point to adding vvdec, at least IMO.
FFMpeg developers themselves are not aware of this development. No idea where you got this information from.

I've not seen a single development tree/tag/branch with anything VVC decoding related either.
birdie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2023, 18:56   #760  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie View Post
FFMpeg developers themselves are not aware of this development. No idea where you got this information from.

I've not seen a single development tree/tag/branch with anything VVC decoding related either.
Not sure what "FFmpeg developers" you are talking to, but if they were of the active kind, they surely would have noticed this project on the mailing list.

The development tree is here:
https://github.com/ffvvc/FFmpeg

Its still quite under development and not finished yet, but should be somewhat usable.

There is also a GSoC 2023 project listed to enlist a student to help with writing Assembly for it, as well as a general task to get involved with work on it, if you need any more "evidence" that its a real thing endorsed by the FFmpeg project itself.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

Last edited by nevcairiel; 13th February 2023 at 19:03.
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.