BD Rebuilder Beta - Bug Reports Only

[Lathe]

Originally Posted by Sharc

x264 defines a number of standardized --presets. For 2-pass encodes, the first pass is run per default with a reduced set of parameters as "fast firstpass". In this case, Pass1 and Pass2 are aligned for maximum speed of Pass1 without compromising the final quality.
BD-RB follows the same strategy, but in addition it takes care of blu-ray compliant settings for BD output, and playback device compatibility for alternate outputs as much as possible.
So when you tweak anything with the passes you should know what you are doing, otherwise you risk to worsen the final result or produce playback issues.
The only tweak which I occasionally use is --tune-film, for both passes.

(Btw, this discussion is unrelated to a BD-RB bug report).

Thanks Sharc! This gives me a nice starting point to do some research about what is done on the 'fast first pass' and about coordinating the 2 passes correctly. I was not aware of the relationship between the two. And yeah, --tune-film does include the deblock -1.-1, but as you say on BOTH passes.

And, YES, I think that I have taken MORE than enough time here on this already, sorry!

[jdobbs]

Originally Posted by MrVideo

Correct. But that has nothing to do with it possibly having 2:3 pulldown content.

The time between images makes up spatial time. In other words, the sampling of space and time. The more images captured per second provides smoother motion. So, motion captured at 59.94 fps will have more spatial info that if it were captured at 29.97 fps.

Actually you can just edit out the commercials and burn to Blu-ray, since 720p59.94 is part of the Blu-ray spec. 720p29.97 is NOT part of the Blu-ray spec.

It really doesn't matter -- as BD-RB doesn't iVTC anything unless it is a 29.97fps source. A 59.94 source will stay 59.94fps. I went through the code and I can see no way that iVTC will ever be accomplished on a 59.94fps source. I also ran a 1280x720/59.94fps source through it and couldn't make it happen. So I'm confused as to how that log could have possibly occurred.

You could use pulldown flags to turn almost any frame rate into almost any other higher frame rate -- but my intent is to find the progressive source in a 29.97fps telecined stream in order to give better picture quality with less wasted bandwidth.

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by jdobbs

It really doesn't matter -- as BD-RB doesn't iVTC anything unless it is a 29.97fps source. A 59.94 source will stay 59.94fps.

That is unfortunate, because you could possibly be keeping 2:3 video from being IVTC'd to 720p23.976, which will ultimately consume less space.

[AmigaFuture]

My guess of back a few versions, then, is that when BD-RB had some challenges with a 720p 59.94, The Mentalist, that it did not have 2:3 in the progressive video? Because going back to my source archives and current BD-RB version, it rerenders from 59.94 to 23.976 fine with iVTC active via right-click access and nothing else. I'm curious.

@ MrVideo

"The time between images makes up spatial time. In other words, the sampling of space and time." -- Thanks, that IS what I was wondering about.

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by AmigaFuture

My guess of back a few versions, then, is that when BD-RB had some challenges with a 720p 59.94, The Mentalist, that it did not have 2:3 in the progressive video? Because going back to my source archives and current BD-RB version, it rerenders from 59.94 to 23.976 fine with iVTC active via right-click access and nothing else. I'm curious.

It should have been 2:3 pulldown, as the show is produced like any other: 1080p23.976. A side note to this is that many shows are shot and edited as 1080p23.98 psf (progressive segmented frame).

I don't watch The Mentalist, but it airs on a network that is 1080i.

To add a wrinkle to all of this, GDMX, the satellite feed arm of Warner Bros., sometimes feeds shows to Canada using duplicate frame mode instead of 2:3 pulldown for the 1080i videos they feed. What that means is that every fourth video frame from the original source is duplicated, resulting is a different jerky motion because of a frame being shown twice.

The AVS Decimate function handles IVTCing this just fine. But I prefer to use SelectEvery instead. But to do that, the location of the repeat frame must be known and hap hazard editing of the video will result in that pattern being upset.

Now, as for the original video that brought this conversation about, it was uploaded to my server and I took a look at it. The whole thing was shot 1080p29.97, i.e., pure video. Interesting that it wasn't shot interlaced. When converted to 720p for airing on the NatGeo channel, each source frame was duplicated for the 59.94 frame rate. So, it has to be left alone for Blu-ray inclusion. But, it can be converted to 720p29.97 by dropping every other frame, with no loss of spatial info.

Come to think of it, it could easily have been shot 1080i. When converted to 720p59.94, deinterlacing would have been done to create 1080p29.97 and then converted to 720p59.94. That means spatial info would have been lost doing that. Some vertical resolution might have been compromised as well. But the downconversion from 1080 to 720 already messes with vertical resolution.

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by MrVideo

Replace 1080i fields with 720p frames. The first frame of 1080p23.976 is transferred to two frames of 720p59.94 and the next 1080p23.976 frame is transferred to three frames of 720p59.94. No 29.97 involved at all.

This "shortcut" method for converting 1080p23.976 to 720p59.97 produces the worst judder, right? (one repetition every 5 pictures; progressive picture sequence like a a b b b c c d d d e e f f f ........).
I think manual frame inspection is required to identify this case, or is the stream somehow flagged to help an automated detection for IVTC?

P.S.
I think we still don't really know what the OP's stream actually is .....

Edit:
Sorry, I missed that you got the stream and analyzed it.

But, it can be converted to 720p29.97 by dropping every other frame, with no loss of spatial info

..and this is probably what handbrake did (referring to the OP's question).

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by Sharc

This "shortcut" method for converting 1080p23.976 to 720p59.97 produces the worst judder, right? (one repetition every 5 pictures; progressive picture sequence like a a b b b c c d d d e e f f f ........).

I've not really noticed an issue. But, I watch very little 720p. I get all of my material as either 1080i, which I then convert to 1080p23.986, or already as 1080p23.986. If I do have to view 720p video, it too is already 720p23.976. What is worse for judder is 1080 with the fifth frame a repeat of the previous. At least with the 720p repeat frames, there are 12 a second, vs the 6 for 1080.

I think manual frame inspection is required to identify this case, or is the stream somehow flagged to help an automated detection for IVTC?

There is no reason to flag 720p59.94 with 2:3 pulldown, because it is not meant for IVTC, only viewing. You can count on any drama that airs to have 2:3 pulldown, be it 720p or 1080i. But, a visual inspection is pretty much needed to verify video that you do not know.

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by MrVideo

There is no reason to flag 720p59.94 with 2:3 pulldown, because it is not meant for IVTC, only viewing.

Ah yes, good point. Thanks.

[Lathe]

I tried importing the BDMV structure that was ripped to my HDD so that BDMV could sort out all the bloody little separate parts and regroup them into some semblance of order (like you suggested I do with the TNG discs, which worked perfectly!)

However, when I go to import the BDMV folder, BDRB tells me that it is not a Blu-ray format...??? I can just 'browse' to the BDMV folder and it accepts that all right, but then everything is STILL in a million little parts, so I can't bloody identify what is the main film and what are XTras. The Blu-ray is 'THE HEAT' which contains the Theatrical and Unrated versions. I really just want to extract the Theatrical version, primarily because it has all these great commentaries on it (including one by the MST3K group!) But, the way it is now, I can't tell heads or tails of which part is which. And, even if I set it for 'Movie Only', it still maddeningly wants to encode every little part as a separate file.

Is there ANY way at all to get BDMV (or anything else for that matter) to decode the damn thing and just create a simple SINGLE movie file (for that matter, later I DO want to do a separate encode for just the Xtras, but I can't tell what the hell is what.

What should I do...?

[Lathe]

Sorry, never mind...

I've only done this a few times and I forgot when importing a Blu-ray, you DON'T click on the BDMV folder like you do when you use the 'browse' function. You select the folder above it CONTAINING the BDMV & CERTIFICATE folders....

DOHHHHHHHHHH...!

Well, I guess my standing on this board has probably skyrocketed now...

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by Lathe

I really just want to extract the Theatrical version, primarily because it has all these great commentaries on it (including one by the MST3K group!)

It shouldn't matter which version you extract, since the commentary soundtrack will be on both. As you well know, it is embedded in the M2TS file(s).

[mparade]

@jdobbs

First of all, thank you very much for your software.

I have just checked 1 pc from my HEVC encoded interlaced m2ts files (from one of my HEVC archives) and saw a lot of combing artifacts in PowerDVD and Kodi's DVD player. MPC even couldn't play it at all. Couldn't be the cause that we are not using --interlace tff/bff (default is false) in the HEVC command line as suggested by the x265 documentation and feeding the encoder with frames instead of fields?

Sorry for disturbing you with such questions...I have just started to make my big archivum using your program and HEVC and noticed these artifacts with interlaced content that was HEVC encoded with the latest version of BD-RB. Maybe, I am completely overlooked something in BD-RB...

I would really appreciate your answer.

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by mparade

I have just checked 1 pc from my HEVC encoded interlaced m2ts files (from one of my HEVC archives) and saw a lot of combing artifacts in PowerDVD and Kodi's DVD player.

Interlaced video, by definition, will have "combing" when there is motion. It is a fact of life with interlaced video. We've lived with it since TV broadcasting became a standard. Since moving to digital video, it seems that many expect the combing to go away. It won't.

The only way to remove combing is to deinterlace pure video sources, or IVTC 23.976 sources that were converted to 29.97 interlaced. I personally do not like deinterlacing as it removes spatial info and can reduce vertical resolution. Deinterlacing has gotten really good over the years, but nothing is a good as the original.

If the video came from a 23.976 source, I certainly recommend IVTCing from 29.97 to 23.976. I do it for ALL of my 1080i material, as I prefer the original 1080p23.976 video.

Having said all that, here is the sticky wicket in all of this. No digital playback viewing device displays images by interlacing. That has vanished. It is all progressive now. So, the display device will handle the deinterlacing. And those sets that are 120Hz (really 29.97 x 4) can deal with the interlaced video, keeping the spatial info intact.

But, if the interlaced video is stored as progressive, where the two fields are combined into a single frame, then deinterlacing can't take place. Maybe the interlacing flag needs to be added. I know that if I forget it with x264 encodes, I see that x264 is doing 1080p instead of 1080i encodes.

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by mparade

@jdobbs

I have just checked 1 pc from my HEVC encoded interlaced m2ts files (from one of my HEVC archives) and saw a lot of combing artifacts in PowerDVD and Kodi's DVD player.

Does your x265 interlaced encode look much different compared to an x264 interlaced encode of the same interlaced (or telecined?) source?
In any case, your player should deinterlace (or inverse-telecine) the encoded interlaced (telecined) stream, otherwise you will see combing especially in action scenes.
I am not familiar with PowerDVD or Kodi, but usually SW players have the option to force deinterlacing. (I am not even sure if any affordable HW players for HEVC/h.265 already exist)

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by Sharc

In any case, your player should deinterlace (or inverse-telecine) the encoded interlaced (telecined) stream, otherwise you will see combing especially in action scenes.

As I mentioned in my posting, Deinterlacing, or IVTC, cannot be done if the interlaced video is turned into progressive video by combining the two fields into a single frame. By not having any fields to work with, it can't deinterlace, or IVTC.

That said, there are a few AVISynth scripts out there to deal with screwed up video like that. But display devices, or video players, are not made to handle screwed up video.

[Lathe]

Originally Posted by MrVideo

As I mentioned in my posting, Deinterlacing, or IVTC, cannot be done if the interlaced video is turned into progressive video by combining the two fields into a single frame. By not having any fields to work with, it can't deinterlace, or IVTC.

That said, there are a few AVISynth scripts out there to deal with screwed up video like that. But display devices, or video players, are not made to handle screwed up video.

Yeah, I think you are right. I 'got ahold' of DVD prints of the series 'War of the Worlds' At first I couldn't figure out why they were tagged as 'progressive' when they looked as interlaced as hell (extreme combing and such) Well, I don't remember HOW I found it, but finally I stumbled on an Avisynth script that made it look perfect (well, 'perfect' as far as DVD goes, but it honestly came out looking pretty dang good!) I saved the script, so I'll paste it here if it is any help. I honestly am NO expert at this at all, so this may not be in any way helpful. But, it sure did the trick with this DVD series, and I had tried every stock deinterlacer that I could find. If I remember correctly, what threw me was that I tried to process them through BDRB, but even after processing, they still looked the same. I don't remember the details, but I think I may have posted some things here when that happened. And, of course, there is a GOOD chance that I just didn't have the BDRB settings right

Again, I don't know if this is really relevant at all, but here is what I used:

DirectShowSource("G:\War.Of.The.Worlds.S2E03.Doomsday.mkv",fps=29.970)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\decomb.dll")
FieldDeinterlace()

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by MrVideo

As I mentioned in my posting, Deinterlacing, or IVTC, cannot be done if the interlaced video is turned into progressive video by combining the two fields into a single frame. By not having any fields to work with, it can't deinterlace, or IVTC.

Yes, agree.
Without more info/tests or without analyzing a sample it remains speculative as to where the OP's problem comes from:
- problematic source (can normally be excluded with Blu-ray discs)
- wrong interpretation of the source format
- incorrect decoding and/or frame serving
- encoder issue (settings or bug)
- or simply a problem with the playback/player.
A sample of the source and encode would be helpful. (I never tried interlaced encoding with x265 though).

[Sharc]

Originally Posted by Lathe

...
......Again, I don't know if this is really relevant at all, but here is what I used:

DirectShowSource("G:\War.Of.The.Worlds.S2E03.Doomsday.mkv",fps=29.970)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\decomb.dll")
FieldDeinterlace()

This really does not look like an original source, eh?

[Lathe]

Originally Posted by Sharc

This really does not look like an original source, eh?

Not the point of the post my friend...

I was just trying to help with a 'screwed up source' that sounded like something similar that I had to deal with... CLEARLY, the person is dealing with some kind of encode that was not done correctly and is obviously far from the 'original source' With this kind of issue, I think that is a given..

[MrVideo]

Originally Posted by Lathe

DirectShowSource("G:\War.Of.The.Worlds.S2E03.Doomsday.mkv",fps=29.970)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\decomb.dll")
FieldDeinterlace()

I know this isn't an AVISynth class, but IIRC, anything in the plugins directory is automatically loaded. LoadPlugin is used when the DLL isn't in that directory.

BTW, I have the WotW DVDs and never noticed anything wrong with them. I think I still have my sat feed recordings of the series as it was fed from Paramount to the affiliates. All on Umatic tape. Yep, that goes back a ways.