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Old 17th September 2021, 14:12   #2041  |  Link
flaviowolff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
"When I set 24 Hz in Windows I get 24 Hz, and it does not support 24/1.001"

It does, it will drop every 1001 frame though in that case. You must set to 24/1.001 if you play 24/1.001 content and to 24.000 if you play 24.000. Same about 30 fps, 60 fps and 120 fps. There is no simple way to convert between the two.
Regarding 23.976 (24.1001) fps content, is there an advantage in setting Windows to 23.976(24.1001) instead of 119.88(120.1001), in pc mode?
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Old 17th September 2021, 16:56   #2042  |  Link
biship
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Don't you want madvr to switch to the fps of the content regardless?
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Old 17th September 2021, 17:06   #2043  |  Link
flaviowolff
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Originally Posted by biship View Post
Don't you want madvr to switch to the fps of the content regardless?
yes, but if 119.88 gives the same result as 23.976, i'd prefer it, so I can go in and out of fullscreen seamlessly.
Besides, I don't always use madvr. I also watch netflix on my pc, to benefit from spatial audio with headphones.
as a bonus, 119.88 would be nice to toggle smooth motion on/off on the fly.

so, is there any benefit from using 24.976 instead of 119.88 in Windows?

according to my quick testing, it's the same, but i'd like to know if there is a theoretical difference.
ty

Last edited by flaviowolff; 17th September 2021 at 17:08.
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Old 17th September 2021, 19:27   #2044  |  Link
huhn
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you can not frame interpolate on the TV side but that'S a bonus in my book.
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Old 17th September 2021, 19:35   #2045  |  Link
flaviowolff
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yep, i'm not willing to.

summing up my question: when watching 23.976fps movies in pc mode (Windows), smooth motion off, is there any difference in motion quality between setting Windows' output to 23.976 or 119.88hz?
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Old 17th September 2021, 22:18   #2046  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flaviowolff View Post
summing up my question: when watching 23.976fps movies in pc mode (Windows), smooth motion off, is there any difference in motion quality between setting Windows' output to 23.976 or 119.88hz?
No, no difference even theoretically. I always use 119 instead of 23 for 23.976 content. The mouse is still smooth and everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
It does, LG C9 and higher support 24/1.001. That is what Microsoft calls 23p, you can check that in new windows 10 display menu, it will print 23.976, which is actually 24/1.001.
Shocking!

Did you seriously think my post meant that I thought my TV did not support 23.976024 Hz? You sound like you have read the specs but never used an HTPC before.

Almost all 24 and 30 fps content is drop-frame timecode, you need to understand this before you can get smooth motion on any display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
Here: old menu shows 119 Hz yet the new one shows 120/1.001
I don't see a 120/1.001 anywhere in your screenshot. 119.880 is not correct, it is 120/1.001 after all.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
1 integer mode in EDID actually is two different modes. Okay?
No, not okay, I still don't understand what you are trying to say. How does that work? My EDIDs have separate modes for 23.976 and 24.000 Hz, I see no packing of both into one mode or anything.

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Originally Posted by Balling View Post
What you also do not seem to understand that DTD (detailed timing) of 23.976 is not the same as that alternate mode of 24/1.001!
You are saying there is a 23.976 time base that is not the same as 24/1.001? How would I use it? I don't understand this alternate mode stuff at all, alternate modes for a refresh rate don't make any sense to me. If it is sending 24.000 Hz what is 24/1.001 about it?
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Last edited by Asmodian; 17th September 2021 at 23:06.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:29   #2047  |  Link
Balling
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"Regarding 23.976 (24.1001) fps content, is there an advantage in setting Windows to 23.976(24/1.001) instead of 119.88(120/1.001), in pc mode?"

No. Mpv player will apply 5:5 pulldown in second case and in first TV will apply 5:5 pulldown. In both cases result is the same and is the same as if 24/1.001 was used, but you may want to turn off interpolation in mpv. Of course in the second case you will be able to do some stuff with BFI and HFR upscaler in TV itself...

P.S. also there is a very bad latency with 24 fps and even worse input lag due to how windows 10' window renderer works.

Last edited by Balling; 18th September 2021 at 08:34.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:32   #2048  |  Link
Balling
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"My EDIDs have separate modes for 23.976 and 24.000 Hz, I see no packing of both into one mode or anything."

Then you TV cannot do 24/1.001. Sorry. But you should look into edid, not just saying what you see somewhere in the menu... it may be that your TV only has 23.976 DTD, which is not 24/1.001. You can use moninfo with edid-decode.

"Almost all 24 and 30 fps content is drop-frame timecode, you need to understand this before you can get smooth motion on any display."

Drop frame timecode becomes wrong after 9 hours 15 minutes, so I do not understand what it has to do with 24/1.001. Nothing. It is also not /1.001, it is 1000/999, that is why it breaks after 9 hours 15 minutes.

Oh and also SMPTE DF timecode is technically not applicable to 24. Only to 30/1.001 fps and its multiples.

Also a lot of content I work with is 24.000. And watch too: Loki, Falcon, What if... are all 24.000.

""If it is sending 24.000 Hz what is 24/1.001 about it?"
It does not send 24.000. It changes to alternate clock (/1.001), what to not understand there? https://github.com/torvalds/linux/co...24305ab63a79e3

"You are saying there is a 23.976 time base that is not the same as 24/1.001?"

Yes. That is precisely what I am saying.

Last edited by Balling; 18th September 2021 at 08:59.
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Old 18th September 2021, 10:20   #2049  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
Drop frame timecode becomes wrong after 9 hours 15 minutes, so I do not understand what it has to do with 24/1.001.
I see.

I think you are confusing timecodes with the real time rate video frames are processed by the video player and sent to the display. The timecodes go out of sync after 9h 15min because the video is really played at 23.97602398 fps, not 23.97600000 fps.

Or are you saying there are video files I could try to play where LAV Video would send the frames at 23.97600000 fps synced to the audio? I have only ever seen 23.97602398. None of my display modes are 23.976000000 Hz and none of the video tools I use have a "23.97600000" option for frame rate.

Or maybe I have seen a video with that framerate, but no one cares because they are all <5h long anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
Oh and also SMPTE DF timecode is technically not applicable to 24. Only to 30/1.001 fps and its multiples.
By "drop frame" I mean XX/1.001 fps, it is about the rate frames are sent to the display, not what the timecodes are. I don't care what the timecodes are, I use frame number when doing subtitles anyway.

I also still don't know why you are bringing any of this up, but it is interesting trying to figure out what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
It does not send 24.000. It changes to alternate clock (/1.001), what to not understand there?
I think I see what you mean, when looking at the EDID entries in CRU they look like they are just 24, 25, 50, 60, 100, and 120 Hz, but Windows gives the separate 23.976, 59.940, and 119.880 options too. Are there really other 23.9760000 modes on some displays? That would be weird.

Or maybe I have seen video modes that were specified as 23.97600000 Hz, but the clocks have never been accurate enough to tell?

Untuned my 23p option runs at ~23.97573xxx Hz anyway, so who knows what it is specified as. That you think there might be a meaningful difference between the two on a PC is cute.

One drop/repeat every 9h would be a very well tuned refresh rate for madVR, anyone would be happy with that. You have to pee sometimes.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 18th September 2021 at 10:56.
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Old 18th September 2021, 16:41   #2050  |  Link
ashlar42
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It's so frustrating that no Dolby Vision for HTPC use exists yes... so effing frustrating, damn...

(sorry for the useless post, I needed to vent with somebody that can undertand the frustration)
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Old 18th September 2021, 19:21   #2051  |  Link
Balling
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"That you think there might be a meaningful difference between the two on a PC is cute. "
Main clocks on a PC have nanosecond precision while internal clocks in PCH have picosecond precision, those last ones are used for HDMI stuff. You can use GNSS-SDR to get to those nanoseconds from GNSS sattellites and remove judder. It is very much possible. Cinema VRR requires 5 digits after decimal point!

"I think I see what you mean, when looking at the EDID entries in CRU they look like they are just 24, 25, 50, 60, 100, and 120 Hz, but Windows gives the separate 23.976, 59.940, and 119.880 options too. Are there really other 23.9760000 modes on some displays? That would be weird."

It was very weird to me too once. Yet that is precisely what happens, except those are 24/1.001 modes, AS I said. 23.976 is what DTD is, that is not VIC. Also not on some displays only: all displays ARE mandated to support both if such a VIC is there... 50 obviously does not support such an alternate clock. Again, HDMI standard 2.0 is freely available, it was leaked eons ago.

"One drop/repeat every 9h would be a very well tuned refresh rate for madVR"

There will not be any such drop. Sigh. It is perfect 24/1.001, just like video. 23976/1000 is just wrongly tagged video.

"Untuned my 23p option runs at ~23.97573xxx Hz anyway, so who knows what it is specified as"

Look into EDID. Moninfo for windows, cat for linux.

"The timecodes go out of sync after 9h 15min because the video is really played at 23.97602398 fps, not 23.97600000 fps."

Yep. 24*999/1000. Nobody uses it anymore though. There is PTS/DTS/timebase in containers and teeks in HEVC/AVC/VVC bitstreams.

Last edited by Balling; 18th September 2021 at 19:43.
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Old 18th September 2021, 20:38   #2052  |  Link
aron7awol
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All of this is all well and good, but you essentially came into this thread suddenly and started parading around as condescendingly as possible saying "I know more than everyone else about these topics totally unrelated to everything being discussed in this thread! Look at me!"
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Old 19th September 2021, 01:35   #2053  |  Link
Asmodian
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The only thing that is new to any of us (me) is that the 23Hz mode is defined as an alternative of the 24Hz mode instead of as its own mode. Of course, this is just an interesting technical detail, it is presented to us as a separate mode either way. It does make all the trouble defining custom 23Hz modes, such as having it get labeled 24Hz, make a lot more sense, so I am happy to know.

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There will not be any such drop. Sigh. It is perfect 24/1.001, just like video. 23976/1000 is just wrongly tagged video.
There would if I had a video mode for 23.9760000000 available in my EDID.

Do you have any idea how to actually play video using madVR on a PC?

I have no idea why 24*(999/1000) was even brought up. I will stop with the off topic.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 19th September 2021 at 01:39.
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Old 19th September 2021, 07:22   #2054  |  Link
Balling
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"play video using madVR on a PC"

In mpc-hc i do actually have an auto framerate switcher for full screen, so yeah.

"would if I had a"

But do you?
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Old 19th September 2021, 18:23   #2055  |  Link
kostik
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If I want to use the latest madVR builds but to not use the new DTM features, what settings do I choose?
Because if choose the simple passthrough, I still see some settings on the right page, do they making any difference if I don't tick any box?

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Old 19th September 2021, 18:52   #2056  |  Link
huhn
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you can ignore them
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