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Old 25th March 2020, 12:40   #41  |  Link
kolak
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It's obvious it's all down to politics and money. Probably Hollywood studios are behind it.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:36   #42  |  Link
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Nothing more than "politics".
Europe had all fps support for very long time now.
I'm in PAL-land (Australia) and I think every Bluray player and TV I've come across is 60Hz "at heart", but capable of 50Hz, or the TV's in NTSC land are 60Hz, with 50Hz disabled, however you want to look at it.

Both Bluray players here (Sony and Samsung) display their own menus at 60Hz. One only switches the TV to 50Hz when playing a 25fps disc, while the other is also clever enough to switch the TV to 50Hz when playing 25fps video via USB. I'm not sure which refresh rate the TV uses when playing video via it's internal media player. I've never tested it but most of the video I use it for is 23.976fps/24fps anyway.

My LCD computer monitor can accept either a 60Hz or 50Hz input.

NTSC support has been common for so long, that back when DVD rentals were a thing, I'd occasionally rent a DVD and not realise it was NTSC until I looked more closely at home, but even my old CRT could switch to "NTSC mode" and the DVD player didn't care.

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Old 26th March 2020, 11:06   #43  |  Link
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Europe is the same, but USA is not. Their TVs (not players) don't really support 50Hz.
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Old 4th February 2021, 02:13   #44  |  Link
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@markfilipak,

Out of interest... What device are you using to play your media files? And what's your Sharp TV's model number?
Sorry to take so long to reply (I've not been able to figure out doom9 and I don't get notifications).

I play via MPV running in Win10. The Sharp TV is connected via NVIDIA driven DisplayPort. The TV model is LC-42LB261U.
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Old 9th October 2021, 21:06   #45  |  Link
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Sorry for getting really technical but this is a really technical subject.

If you're tired of seeing crap video and you find that my "best possible video" obsession interests you... I need your support trying to pry details out of the various project developers. There's power in numbers. Contact me here or via PM.

KEY: (In lieu of useless terms like '30i' and '24p'...)
KEY: "fps" means "frames-per-second"; "pps" means "pictures-per-second".
23.9fps[24pps] is BD/DVD cinema, progressive or soft telecined, ripped from disc [note 1].
59.9fps[2-2-2-4[24pps]] is my best guess how my TV displays 23.9fps[24pps] [note 2].
24fps[24pps] is 23.9fps[24pps] forced to theater frame rate/running time [note 3].
60fps[60pps] is 24fps[24pps] with interframe synthesis via 2-to-5 mv interpolation [note 4].
120fps[120pps] is 24fps[24pps] with interframe synthesis via 1-to-5 mv interpolation [note 5].

[note 1] 24pps is what's seen in theaters [note 6]; DVDs/BDs slow that down by 0.1% [note 7].
[note 2] 2-2-2-4 pull-down by the TV (...by appearance, the TV doesn't disclose anything).
[note 3] Force timebase & presentation time stamps via ffmpeg 'settb=expr=1/24,setpts=expr=N'.
[note 4] Motion vector interpolation synthesizes interframes & interframe pictures.
[note 5] Even better interframe synthesis due to integer (i.e. 5x, not 2.5x) interpolation.
[note 6] "Better" theaters triple-shutter to 72fps[24pps] but the picture rate remains 24pps.
[note 7] Slowdown: 24fps-to-24/1.001fps (so video can be telecined to NTSC 29.9fps ...yuck).

My Sharp 2K-TV,
1, Converts 23.9fps[24pps] inputs to 59.9fps[2-2-2-4[24pps]] display -- creates telecine judder;
2, Smooths (fuzzes) 59.9fps[2-3[24pps]] inputs -- less telecine judder but creates combing;
3, Displays 60fps[60pps] incredibly smoothly -- no judder, no combing;
4, Apparently drops alternate frames (120fps -> 60fps) without damaging the TV.

What does your TV do? How can you discover what your TV does? What's 'best' for all TVs?
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Old 9th October 2021, 23:02   #46  |  Link
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
What does your TV do?
Hi-end Samsung TVs from 2009 onwards do the following:

Input: 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p

Input: 29.970 telecined with 3:2 pulldown -> detects the telecine -> IVTC to 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p

Input: 29.970i (truly interlaced like for sports) -> bob to 60p

Input: 29.970p -> Linear Interpolation to 60p

Any other framerate set in between result in the TV not understanding what's going on and just leaving things as they are. For instance if you were to transmit a signal with let's say 28fps, it will display it as it is, resulting in stuttering etc.

What about 25p then? Well, if the TV is set to 60Hz, it doesn't detect it and just outputs the same, however if the TV is set to 50Hz it detects it and performs linear interpolation to 50p.

A note about linear interpolation: I've noticed that linear interpolation is quite good, but there are some artifacts, however those are limited. What I think happens underneath is that when the TV just doesn't know, it performs blending instead of linear interpolation, hence trying to limit the times in which linear interpolation results in artifacts.

Of course, the vast majority of contents I watch are PAL 'cause I live in PAL land and the TV is set to 50Hz, therefore what happens is that I always receive a 25i signal, but while for sports it's a real 25i signal that has to be bobbed to 50p and then displayed (and the TV does just that), for movies and TV Series it's actually a 25p flagged as 25i, therefore the TV detects that it's actually progressive and treats it as progressive (i.e it applies linear interpolation to 50p). There have been just a few times in which this didn't work out: you see, even though the content might be progressive, sometimes there are messages in a ticker showing up in the lower part of the screen and those messages are of course interlaced 'cause the whole stream is supposed to be interlaced, so what happens is that sometimes the TV detects it, switches to bobbing mode and you see the text moving fine but the whole scene stutter ('cause now you have those frames duplicated), and sometimes it doesn't and it keeps treating it as progressive and you see the text in the lower part of the screen being displayed as an interlaced mess.

Last edited by FranceBB; 9th October 2021 at 23:05.
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Old 10th October 2021, 00:44   #47  |  Link
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When you say "linear interpolation" are you talking about "smooth motion" settings and such? I.e. things no sane person would turn on in the first place?

Quote:
Input: 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p
That just sounds like the worst of both worlds...
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Old 10th October 2021, 03:54   #48  |  Link
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Originally Posted by wonkey_monkey View Post
When you say "linear interpolation" are you talking about "smooth motion" settings and such? I.e. things no sane person would turn on in the first place?

That just sounds like the worst of both worlds...
@wonkey_monkey,

I'm with you. FranceBB can't mean motion vector interpolation because, if the TV is doing the decoding -- doubtful but possible -- then inside the TV at that point there's raw frames. Either that or, if the input is from a player or computer over HDMI or DisplayPort, then the TV's input is definitely raw frames. So, FranceBB must mean pixel interpolation (or maybe, just frame doubling) to 47.9fps and then 2-3 telecine to 59.9fps -- Is that right, FranceBB?

My Sharp has "smooth motion" and it's awful. I turned it off the first time I powered it up.
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Old 10th October 2021, 04:41   #49  |  Link
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Originally Posted by FranceBB View Post
Hi-end Samsung TVs from 2009 onwards do the following:

Input: 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p

Input: 29.970 telecined with 3:2 pulldown -> detects the telecine -> IVTC to 23.976p -> Linear Interpolation to 48fps + blending to 60p
Blending? Really?
Quote:
Input: 29.970i (truly interlaced like for sports) -> bob to 60p
Try this: separate the 29.9fps[59.9sps] fields to make two, 29.9fps[29.9pps] half-picture streams -- it doesn't matter whether the source stream is TFF or BFF -- then motion vector interpolate each half-picture stream separately to 119.8fps[119.8pps] (that's 4x), then delay the 2nd stream by 2 frames, then bob the first 2 frames of the 1st stream and weave the 2 streams together to form full-sized, 119.8fps[119.8pps] (progressive) frames. The 2nd half-picture stream delay is to time-align it's first frame (which is an original frame) with the 3rd frame of the 1st half-picture stream (which is a synthesized frame that coincides in time). Thereafter, each original field (top or bottom) will pair with a synthesized, time-aligned field (bottom or top) The result is seemingly 'live' -- like you're viewing reality -- and makes bob look absolutely 'mushy'. You can leave the result as 119.8fps[119.8pps] or drop it to 59.9fps[59.9pps].
Quote:
Input: 29.970p -> Linear Interpolation to 60p
May I ask: For any of the above, how do you know that's what the TV does? Does it tell you? My TV tells me nothing and the manual tells me next to nothing (and in unknown, bogus marketing terms).
Quote:
Any other framerate set in between result in the TV not understanding what's going on and just leaving things as they are. For instance if you were to transmit a signal with let's say 28fps, it will display it as it is, resulting in stuttering etc.
Well, 28fps that actually displays at 28fps will not stutter, so your TV must be doing some sort of telecine.
Quote:
What about 25p then? Well, if the TV is set to 60Hz, it doesn't detect it and just outputs the same, however if the TV is set to 50Hz it detects it and performs linear interpolation to 50p.

A note about linear interpolation: I've noticed that linear interpolation is quite good, but there are some artifacts ...
Can you describe the artifacts? Are they background "drag" along the boundary of motion objects in panning shots? -- looks like the bow wave and wake of a boat viewed from overhead. That's what I sometimes get with real-time motion interpolation when the interpolator doesn't have enough time. Or by "artifacts" do you mean aliasing? Or maybe pixel twitter -- like sparkling?

The reason I'm so interested is that I'm considering buying a new TV and the marketing material just doesn't reveal what TVs actually do.

Thanks for your contribution and your thoughts and feel free to clarify or ask questions.

--Mark.
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Old 10th October 2021, 05:07   #50  |  Link
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You're a pro! Well, try the field trick I outlined using a real-time interpolator (maybe, SVP) and see what you get. I've found that, for the same codec, the field trick results in a stream that not only looks fantastic, but it's 1/6 to 1/8 the size (6x to 8x the bps) even for placebo transcodes. I was greatly surprised and amazed to say the least!

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Old 10th October 2021, 06:16   #51  |  Link
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@FranceBB,

PS: If you're only processing 29.9fps[59.9sps] -- "sps" = "scans per second" -- then there's no reason for going to 119.8fps[119.8pps] (i.e. 4x mv interpolation); interpolating to 59.9fps[59.9pps] (i.e. 2x mv interpolation) will do. If so, then delay the 2nd field stream by only 1 frame (instead of 2) and bob the 1st field for only 1 frame (instead of 2) and then weave.

I suggested 119.8fps because I take everything to 119.8fps (well, 120fps, actually). I do that because most of what I process are 23.9fps[24pps] and mixed 29.9fps[59.9sps]+29.9fps[2-3[24pps]], i.e. "Making Of" documentaries.
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Old 10th October 2021, 07:49   #52  |  Link
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he said 2009 and only named one brand. this does not apply today pretty much all display these days are native 120 with 100 mode in Europe too they also usually support 120 HZ input at 1080p or better.

panasonic still does 6:4(3:2 in frames) at 120 HZ with a 24 source when pure direct is used.

2018 was just a bad year to buy a TV with proper 24 HZ support thanks to the 60 HZ limited panels back then.

deint to 120 HZ to properly display 60 HZ source with film or mixed content is a basic feature of sony panels with 120 HZ for like 8 years now.
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Old 10th October 2021, 14:09   #53  |  Link
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FranceBB can't mean motion vector interpolation because, if the TV is doing the decoding -- doubtful but possible -- then inside the TV at that point there's raw frames.
TVs nowadays are like computers, they can decode and apply all kind of post-processing with a tiny delay. Particularly Samsung is known to apply all kind of processing to the image.

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how do you know that's what the TV does? Does it tell you?
It doesn't tell me anything, but what I see is what I also saw in the studio. For instance, if I'm watching Sky Cinema and I'm watching a movie, I know for a fact that we received it at 23.976fps and that it has been speeded up + pitch adjusted by 4% to get to 25fps and then it has been flagged as interlaced, therefore it's progressive flagged as interlaced. When I see it in a broadcast reference monitor from Sony, it clearly stutters 'cause the broadcast monitor receiving the playback from Omneon through SDI just detects the properties and bobs it to 50p ('cause all displays are progressive), however, since it's actually 25p flagged as 25i, both fields are exactly the same, therefore you end up seeing duplicated frames all over the place, hence it stutters (although that's the way it's supposed to be seen by the viewers). What happens then is that if I see that very same content after it has been aired and I receive it with my Sky Q box plugged via HDMI to the Samsung TV, such a TV will see the frame properties (i.e 25i), it will detect internally that it's actually 25p flagged as 25i and it will perform motion vector calculations to bring it to 50p.

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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Can you describe the artifacts? Are they background "drag" along the boundary of motion objects in panning shots? -- looks like the bow wave and wake of a boat viewed from overhead. That's what I sometimes get with real-time motion interpolation when the interpolator doesn't have enough time. Or by "artifacts" do you mean aliasing? Or maybe pixel twitter -- like sparkling?
Sure. So, whenever you have a pan like a landscape etc, the interpolation is perfect 'cause motion vectors match perfectly and the newly created ones (the artificial ones from the optical flow) are indistinguishable from the real ones, so everything checks out. The problem is when there are fast changing scenes, especially with noise or dynamic grain. In that case, sometimes, you see a frame which has artifacts in some 16x16 blocks like if there are two people fighting there might be a spark in the blocks of the immediately subsequent frames even if it's not supposed to be there. Sometimes you can see things like some "dirt" on clothes like things that are not supposed to be there but that they are due to poor prediction, but you never find things as noticeable as people with 6 fingers or 3 legs etc. I mean, with time this kind of calculation has become better and better and I feel like it will only get better. On the other hand, this is pissing some content creators off a bit 'cause sometimes the choice of shooting to 25p rather than 50p (and divide in fields to get 25i) is something that the author wants and having TVs just doing what the heck they want isn't what they want.

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Well, 28fps that actually displays at 28fps will not stutter, so your TV must be doing some sort of telecine.
Well no, I meant that if you send a 28p signal it will not be recognized and the TV will just duplicate it to 60p, hence stuttering. By saying "displaying it as it is" I meant that it doesn't interpolate or blends and just duplicates ehehhehe

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You're a pro!
lol, well, I do work for Sky, yeah, but I'm not really interested in buying a new consumer TV right now as I think I'm gonna wait a bit more for when 8K is gonna be supported. Some friends of mine got "punished" for being over enthusiastic about new technologies and buying a 4K TV early on in 2013, 'cause they ended up having TVs which were able to understand BT2020 but no color curve whatsoever, hence being forced to see everything at 100 nits. Luckily I wasn't one of them, but I feel like I'm gonna wait a bit more for 8K and H.266 VVC compatibility.
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Old 10th October 2021, 18:38   #54  |  Link
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he said 2009 and only named one brand. this does not apply today pretty much all display these days are native 120 with 100 mode in Europe too they also usually support 120 HZ input at 1080p or better.
Thanks, that's good to know -- I don't live in Europe.
Quote:
panasonic still does 6:4(3:2 in frames) at 120 HZ with a 24 source when pure direct is used.
If Panasonic does pull-down, then how can you say it's pure direct?
Quote:
2018 was just a bad year to buy a TV with proper 24 HZ support thanks to the 60 HZ limited panels back then.
Well, I guess that's true if the TV manufacturer is stupid or lazy, eh? That's why this is topic interests me so much.
Quote:
deint to 120 HZ to properly display 60 HZ source with film or mixed content is a basic feature of sony panels with 120 HZ for like 8 years now.
"deint to 120 HZ"? Do you mean bob? And I thought we were discussing 24fps sources, not 60fps (or is it 59.9sps you refer to?). I'm confused.
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Old 10th October 2021, 18:58   #55  |  Link
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Quote:
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... Can you describe the artifacts? Are they background "drag" along the boundary of motion objects in panning shots? -- looks like the bow wave and wake of a boat viewed from overhead. That's what I sometimes get with real-time motion interpolation when the interpolator doesn't have enough time. Or by "artifacts" do you mean aliasing? Or maybe pixel twitter -- like sparkling?
Sure. So, whenever you have a pan like a landscape etc, the interpolation is perfect 'cause motion vectors match perfectly and the newly created ones (the artificial ones from the optical flow) are indistinguishable from the real ones, so everything checks out.
I'm sorry, I guess I didn't fully explain "background 'drag' along the boundary of motion objects in panning shots". Suppose a camera tracks a car along a highway (or a person crossing a room). That's a motion object in a panning shot. Perhaps I should have said "tracking shot", eh? The car (or person) appears to stand still while the background pans. That's when I see 'artifacts', meaning: image distortion along the boundary of the car (or person) between the car (or person) and the panning background. I likened it to looking down from above at a boat -- the boat's bow wave and wake 'distort' the water and looks like the effect I'm talking about. Does that make it clearer and is that the kind of 'artifacting' you are talking about?

PS: Some people call that "background drag", "ghosting".
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Old 10th October 2021, 19:03   #56  |  Link
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If Panasonic does pull-down, then how can you say it's pure direct?
tell that panasonic not me.

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"deint to 120 HZ"? Do you mean bob? And I thought we were discussing 24fps sources, not 60fps (or is it 59.9sps you refer to?). I'm confused.
this is field matching and mostly likely frame adaptive deint but not sure how the deint type matter if this is just about how a 24 FPS signal in 60i or 60p is treated.
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Old 10th October 2021, 22:00   #57  |  Link
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Quote:
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"deint to 120 HZ"? Do you mean bob? And I thought we were discussing 24fps sources, not 60fps (or is it 59.9sps you refer to?). I'm confused.
this is field matching and mostly likely frame adaptive deint but not sure how the deint type matter if this is just about how a 24 FPS signal in 60i or 60p is treated.
Well, I'm still confused and frustrated trying to figure out what you mean. You know that people toss around the word "deinterlace" when they refer to any process that involves deinterlacing, even when it's undone at the end of the filtering, even with progressive frames, eh? Do you mean real deinterlacing of scan fields? I think you do. But what has that to do with 24 or 23.9fps? What are you getting at and what does it have to do with TVs? TVs don't deinterlace interlaced scan fields, do they?

What the heck does 'field matching' mean to you? What does 'adaptive deint' mean to you? This is all too abstract, using 'terms' that only have meaning for you, in your head.

PS: I'm sorry for showing my frustration. Can we stick to the types of videos found on DVDs and BDs, please? Otherwise, there's no end to discussion of all the possible video formats.

Last edited by markfilipak; 10th October 2021 at 22:09.
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Old 11th October 2021, 00:19   #58  |  Link
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@huhn,

Would you mind terribly if I petitioned to remove your posts and my replies to them? They really are off topic. Please say it's okay.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:56   #59  |  Link
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no...

frist result for adaptive deint: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11582267_48
TV use this for a long time and intel, nvidia and AMD (not dual rate) have them also known as motion *compensating or frame adaptive deint.


field matching:
http://underpop.online.fr/f/ffmpeg/h...ldmatch.htm.gz

and yes TVs do that. and is important to understand why some TVs can't like those with 60 HZ panels and other can with 120 HZ while they maybe even be able to display a 24 HZ signal correctly (sony only) but this feature is missing.

it would be nice if very easy to google terms are not suppossed to be in my "head" i don't like been insulted thank you. and yes these are obviously applied to DVD, BD and alike or simple broadcast signals.
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Old 11th October 2021, 16:53   #60  |  Link
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Smooth motion setting sucks. My Sony had it enabled on one app without an easy way to disable it. I eventually managed to turn it off. It was a hell
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