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Old 20th October 2021, 06:25   #61  |  Link
ognirats
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no sony found a way to display 24p correctly on 60HZ panels the majority can't
Is there any more info on it?
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Old 20th October 2021, 09:28   #62  |  Link
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these TVs can't frame interpolated with a 60 HZ signal. they can't judder free display 24p using the build in app (runs at 60 instead of 120).

beware recovering 24p from a 60 HZ source is part of the "smoothing" settings but it needs to be setup correctly so it just creates the orginal frames without frame interpolation.

x800H is currently one of these
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800h
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Old 20th October 2021, 10:26   #63  |  Link
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"Can't frame Interpolated"?


Can you please explain what are you talking about
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Old 20th October 2021, 16:00   #64  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ognirats View Post
"Can't frame Interpolated"?


Can you please explain what are you talking about
I think that huhn means: The Sony TV that was reviewed doesn't frame interpolate a 24fps video (movie, cinema camera) well because it has a 60Hz panel, not a 120Hz panel.

Any TV with a native 120Hz panel (or a true variable refresh rate panel) can display 24fps perfectly via simple 1-to-5 frame repeat (i.e. 5x frame rate boost) whereas a native 60Hz panel requires 4-to-10 field repeat (i.e. 2.5x frame rate boost) via either telecine (which either judders or is so smoothed out that faces look like plastic) or interpolation (via either pixel interpolation or motion vector interpolation).

Pixel interpolation is fast but it results in fuzzy pictures that, for fast motion is relatively unnoticable, but for smooth motion is noticable.

Motion vector interpolation is better at retaining sharpness but MV block size -- the motion vectors are per-block, not per-pixel -- becomes an issue. Large MV blocks are more apt to produce motion vector block artifacts that are similar to macroblock blocking (e.g. the blocks seen in low detail, low contrast areas on non-HDR TVs).

MV artifacts show up mostly in tracking shots: Shots in which an object (a boat or a plane or an actor) 'appears' motionless as the background moves. The artifacts can be avoided by adaptive analysis of the picture content and/or by using smaller motion vector block sizes. But perfoming MV interpolation in the TV is a real-time situation because the TV has to produce a new picture every 1/60 second. Really good adaptive analysis and smaller MV blocks simply take more time -- too much time -- than most TV's can afford.

When I started this thread I hoped to avoid these kind of detail discussions and simply compile a list of TVs that display 24fps content well.

I've concluded that, in order to process 24fps video with sufficiently small MV blocks and sufficient adaptive analysis, I have to transcode them (decode - interpolate to 120fps - encode) before sending them to the TV. That requires a chain of 3 functions that are available to VapourSynth: Super() followed by Analyse() followed by SmoothFps(). The plugin DLLs that accomplish that were developed by the Smooth Video Project (SVP) but it's objective was to accomplish the 120fps conversion in real time (for use inside TVs), not as part of transcoding. As part of transcoding, the process could take whatever time it requires but SVP is not set up to take 'whatever time it requires'.

If you bring up my thread history in the VapourSynth sub-forum and look at what I've been posting you'll see the direction I'm taking. But understanding Super() and Analyse() and SmoothFps() is not easy, and understanding how to adapt Super() and Analyse() and SmoothFps() to (non-real-time) transcoding is difficult due to lack of detailed documentation.

I could use some help and some support in the VapourSynth sub-forum.

PS: The required transcoding could be done via ffmpeg but for 2 problems: 1, the ffmpeg MV interpolation routines are poor, and 2, the ffmpeg developers are busy supporting streaming and are not interested in non-real-time issues.

Last edited by markfilipak; 20th October 2021 at 16:10.
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:27   #65  |  Link
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oh, he meant "Those TVs cant interpolate 60hz video"...
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:33   #66  |  Link
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Any TV with a native 120Hz panel (or a true variable refresh rate panel) can display 24fps perfectly via simple 1-to-5 frame repeat (i.e. 5x frame rate boost) whereas a native 60Hz panel requires 4-to-10 field repeat (i.e. 2.5x frame rate boost) via either telecine (which either judders or is so smoothed out that faces look like plastic) or interpolation (via either pixel interpolation or motion vector interpolation).
I am pretty sure my BRAVIA doesn't interpolate/3:2 pulldown 24hz sources. How does it do it then?
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Old 20th October 2021, 19:47   #67  |  Link
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Is this why so many American TVs can't display 50fps? Because they use fixed 60Hz or 120Hz panels, whereas in PAL land they more or less have to use variable rate panels?
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Old 21st October 2021, 04:11   #68  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ognirats View Post
oh, he meant "Those TVs cant interpolate 60hz video"...
huhn wrote: "these TVs can't frame interpolated with a 60 HZ signal. they can't judder free display 24p using the build in app (runs at 60 instead of 120)."

I guess the interpretation is up to the reader, eh? And how do you know what he meant? For that matter, how do you know that huhn is a 'he'?

PS: That brings to mind the cartoon: "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog." -- a dog holding a cell phone, to another dog.

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Old 21st October 2021, 04:17   #69  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ognirats View Post
I am pretty sure my BRAVIA doesn't interpolate/3:2 pulldown 24hz sources.
Of course not.
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How does it do it then?
It doesn't.

A 24fps source with 3-2 pull-down (or 2-3 pull-down, which is much more common) is called "hard telecine". Why/how would a TV interpolate a hard telecined stream?
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Old 21st October 2021, 04:34   #70  |  Link
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Originally Posted by wonkey_monkey View Post
Is this why so many American TVs can't display 50fps? Because they use fixed 60Hz or 120Hz panels ...
That's the rumor/rumour. The real reason, I think, is that the U.S. government lets companies get away with non-competitive bullsh*t -- the U.S. government has been bought.

PS: That reminds me of the old joke: The United States has the best politicians that money can buy.
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... whereas in PAL land they more or less have to use variable rate panels?
I doubt that. Variable rate panels haven't been around that long.

Your TVs run 24fps cinema at 25fps (4% speedup) unless the frames been treated to Euro pull-down. And I'll bet there's a Euro telecine that adapts 29.970fps to 25fps. ...Or are you saying that you can take a Region 1 DVD that's hard telecined to 30000/1001fps and play it on a d-PAL TV and people don't sound like they're falling asleep or on tranquilizers?

Last edited by markfilipak; 21st October 2021 at 05:25.
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Old 21st October 2021, 07:58   #71  |  Link
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https://imgur.com/a/FXevmEn

https://imgur.com/a/M0UH3rW
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Old 21st October 2021, 08:56   #72  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ognirats View Post
Do you want to make a point? What is it? You have my full attention.
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Old 21st October 2021, 10:57   #73  |  Link
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Your TVs run 24fps cinema at 25fps (4% speedup) unless the frames been treated to Euro pull-down.
Not when I play a blu-ray out to it, it doesn't. The screen blanks and then pops up an info box saying "24Hz", just as does when switching between TV (50Hz) and console (60Hz).

All appear to be the correct framerate without interpolation.
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Old 21st October 2021, 10:59   #74  |  Link
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Originally Posted by wonkey_monkey View Post
Is this why so many American TVs can't display 50fps? Because they use fixed 60Hz or 120Hz panels, whereas in PAL land they more or less have to use variable rate panels?
they most likely simply don't bother adding it. they are clearly don't produce worse panels for the US instead of the same panel for every country.

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I doubt that. Variable rate panels haven't been around that long.

Your TVs run 24fps cinema at 25fps (4% speedup) unless the frames been treated to Euro pull-down. And I'll bet there's a Euro telecine that adapts 29.970fps to 25fps. ...Or are you saying that you can take a Region 1 DVD that's hard telecined to 30000/1001fps and play it on a d-PAL TV and people don't sound like they're falling asleep or on tranquilizers?
i have not seen a TV or even monitor in germany that can't natively do 50 HZ and 60 HZ and i count CRT into this too. of cause we can play all region on our devices why wouldn't we... you just need to rip it, have a player of that region or a region lock free player.

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I am pretty sure my BRAVIA doesn't interpolate/3:2 pulldown 24hz sources. How does it do it then?
we can only guess or your device is just a native 120 HZ panel which is very common for sony TVs.
maybe they just do 48 HZ and the rest didn't come up with that simple trick. taking an old TV with 50 and 60 HZ support and giving it a custom refreshrate of 48 HZ is pretty trivial. modern TV don't like custom refreshrate anymore they may work but huge changes are suually rejected on the other hand they are usually 120 HZ anyway.

pulldown is part of interlacing/telecine while i totally undertstand what you mean 3:2 judder should be clear enough and no there is no difference between 3:2 or 2:3 it's just where you start counting.
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Old 21st October 2021, 12:10   #75  |  Link
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we can only guess or your device is just a native 120 HZ panel which is very common for sony TVs.
If that's true than it's kinda stupid of them for not making it an option
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Old 21st October 2021, 12:26   #76  |  Link
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not exposing 120 HZ is very common in the past. than it was generally available at 1080p and 1440p on many brands and with HDMI 2.1 2160p120 was now possible too and is pretty common.
you can just look up your model on rtings to fugure it out or just send 60 HZ and destroy your image quality with the frame interpolation "feature" if it is possible to do that it has to be 120 HZ.
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