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Old 10th November 2016, 17:28   #1101  |  Link
r0lZ
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Thanks for your kind words.

Currently, the MVC decoders are unable to seek, because they do not build an index file. It's a known limitation, and BD3D2MK3D can't directly overcome it. But you wrote "(non 3D)", and therefore I guess that you don't need a MVC decoder. A good AVC decoder should be sufficient. Have you tried FFMpegSource2 or a similar Source plugin ? Also, if you really want or need to use DGMVCSource or FRIMSource, you can use the SequentialToSeekable function of the Sub3D avisynth plugin by slavanap. It decodes silently all necessary frames to jump to the requested frame and is therefore very slow (especially if you need to seek backward), but it works well. You may also be interested in the main feature of the Sub3D plugin: it detects the right depth for your subtitles without the help of any 3D plane, and can either hardcode your subs or generate a 3D plane! Try it! It is slow and not always accurate, but slavanap did a wonderful job anyway.
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Last edited by r0lZ; 10th November 2016 at 17:31.
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Old 10th November 2016, 17:36   #1102  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
But you wrote "(non 3D)", and therefore I guess that you don't need a MVC decoder.
The title is not in 3D, but it's in translated language, so I'm trying to "patch" it with the 2D title (stacked, separate fields, giving me a 3D-compatible T&B clip).

For the curious one, it's Transcendence, which is only released in 3D in France. Title is spelled "TRANSCENDANCE". Yeah I'm a bit OCD, but since I'm putting a bit of work into the subs anyway...
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Old 20th November 2016, 13:47   #1103  |  Link
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BD3D2MK3D v0.95

This version includes some minor bug fixes related to the ASS 3D subtitles (reported by konikpolny here).

It has also a new feature to display the 2D-only titles of the current BD in a window similar to tab 1. It's only a simple way to find and preview the 2D titles. That may be useful if you want to re-encode them with another tool.
Quote:
v0.95 (November 20, 2016)
- Added File -> Explore 2D Content of 3DBD to display and preview the 2D MPLS files of the current BD
- SRT to ASS 3D: Fixed: The subtitle of the right view in Half-SBS was sometimes off by 1 pixel
- SRT to ASS 3D: Changed the SecondaryColor from yellow &H0380F0F0 to pure black &H00000000
- SRT to ASS 3D: Changed the font style name "Default" to "3D"
- Updated the Mkvtoolnix exes to the latest version (v9.5.0)
- Updated the x264 exes to the latest version (0.148.2721)
- Updated the x265 exes to the latest version (2.1+36)
Download: BD3D2MK3D.7z
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Old 22nd November 2016, 16:33   #1104  |  Link
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r0lZ,
thanks for the latest version. However, it still doesn't have any automated support for 3D subtitles in full-SBS/TB projects, which I was hoping to come into being.
Most importantly it doesn't generate the 3D-planes and XML/PNG files automatically, which are needed or useful in converting the 2D.SRT to 3D.ASS subtitles.
Also, for the reasons I explained earlier it would also be good to have BD3D2MK3D generate the half-3D versions of sups/subs just as it does for half-SBS/TB projects (they can still be useful for full-SBS/TB movies).
Not having these features may add a lot of manual work if one wants to get the 3D subtitles in a full-3D project:
The 3D-planes I can generate manually from the Subtitle tools and this is the easier part, but for XML/PNG there is no tool to generate them directly (you can get xml/png indirectly by converting 2D to 3D). The XML/PNG subs are needed (preferrably before the convertion) if one wants to run the "Verify the 3D-planes compatibility..." tool to make a better guess for the right 3D plane choice (the tool only accepts XML/PNG format).

Currently, as I don't want to do all this manually I am creating the second project for the half- version, only to get these files. This does not make sense.
Please, add the 3D subs support already available to half-SBS/TB projects to full- versions projects as well.

Last edited by konikpolny; 23rd November 2016 at 01:10.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 13:34   #1105  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konikpolny View Post
r0lZ,
thanks for the latest version. However, it still doesn't have any automated support for 3D subtitles in full-SBS/TB projects, which I was hoping to come into being.
[...]
Please, add the 3D subs support already available to half-SBS/TB projects to full- versions projects as well.
Indeed, I forgot that. Sorry. But see the next post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by konikpolny View Post
[...] but for XML/PNG there is no tool to generate them directly (you can get xml/png indirectly by converting 2D to 3D).
It's not correct. You can very easily generate the XML/PNG files with BDSup2Sub. And, BTW, you can even launch BDSup2Sub (the java or ++ version depending on your settings) directly from the Subtitle Tools menu of BD3D2MK3D. Just select the right output format in the BDSup2Sub GUI. But if you do it, take care. BDSup2Sub has a very big bug when loading XML/PNG subtitles. It assumes always (regardless of the content of the XML file) that the frame rate is 25 fps, and, of course, the timings are not correct any more. To avoid that bug, you have to specify that you want to change the frame rate when the stream is loaded, and select 23.976 for both the FPS Source and FPS Target settings. That way, the timings will be correct (for a 3D BD, of course).

Anyway, with the new version of BD3D2MK3D, you should not need to do it manually any more. :-)
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Last edited by r0lZ; 23rd November 2016 at 13:42.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 13:38   #1106  |  Link
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BD3D2MK3D v0.96

I've implemented the request of konikpolny. It is now possible to generate the 3D subtitles in Half-SBS or Half-T&B format, even if you encode in Full-SBS or Full-T&B format. (It's still not possible if you encode in Frame Sequential, of course.) See the new option in the Settings menu.

This version includes also a few improvements, and a little bug fix.

Quote:
v0.96 (November 22, 2016)
- The playlists without audio are not displayed in the GUI any more (unless the "Show all 3D playlists" option is ticked)
- Added the option Generate 3D Subtitles Anyway to force BD3D2MK3D to generate Half-SBS/T&B subtitles even in Full-SBS/T&B format
- Added two context menus in the new Explore 2D Content window
- Fix: Bug when comparing playlists to remove duplicates if a 3D playlist has no 3D-Planes
Download: BD3D2MK3D.7z
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Old 25th November 2016, 12:26   #1107  |  Link
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r0lZ, Thank you very much for that.
Also, thank you for the info about BDSup2Sub and XML/PNG files.

On this occasion can you please explain what is _ENCODE_2D.cmd used for?
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Old 25th November 2016, 14:57   #1108  |  Link
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_ENCODE_2D.cmd is the command that launches x264 (or x265) with the required parameters to encode the movie in 2D, in case you are interested in the 2D version alone. If I have correctly understood your choice, you don't need it, since you encode in full-SBS so that you can select only an half of the video image to watch the SBS movie in 2D. But others (including me) need half-SBS and having the possibility to encode also in 2D is handy.
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Old 25th November 2016, 16:59   #1109  |  Link
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OK, so it is a way to encode the 2D of the 3D BD, and it is never used in the 3D encode process. But what i didn't understand was that it has hardcoded encode values totally independent of what you specify for your 3D project

Last edited by konikpolny; 25th November 2016 at 23:36.
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Old 25th November 2016, 17:48   #1110  |  Link
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No, it's not totally independent. Most settings are used for the 2D and 3D versions (like the selected streams, 720p, CRF value or bitrate). Of course, the 3D specific settings (like SBS, 3D subtitles...) are ignored. And some other settings are ignored as well for technical reasons, like the black at the beginning or end of the movie, because the original AVC stream is re-encoded directly and there is no avisynth script and therefore there are less possibilities. But anyway, the overall quality of the 2D version should be identical or very similar to the quality of the 3D version.
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Old 25th November 2016, 23:26   #1111  |  Link
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OK, let's compare, the most outstanding differences...
my 3D encode:
\toolset\x265_8bit_x64.exe
--crf 24 --preset veryslow --tune grain


my 2D encode:

\toolset\x264_8bit_x64.exe (in _MUX_2D_REENCODED_OPTIONS.txt the video track for this is named "x265 baseline CRF 20 preset ultrafast, tune film")
--crf 20 --preset ultrafast --tune film

It doesn't quite look as if the 2D version should be identical or similar to the quality of the 3D version

Last edited by konikpolny; 25th November 2016 at 23:29.
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Old 26th November 2016, 05:30   #1112  |  Link
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Oh, yes, it's because you encode with x265. I forgot to explain that the 2D encoding is always made with x264, because x265 doesn't accept an AVC stream as input. For that reason, if you encode the 3D movie with x265, the latest settings saved in x264 mode are used for the 2D version. So, to specify other settings for the 2D version, you should switch to x264, modify the settings in the last tab, save the configuration, then return to x265. Your original x265 settings should be automatically restored. The new projects will use the current x265 settings for the 3D version, and the "hidden" x264 settings for the 2D version. (It's somewhat complex, but remember that the 2D stuff is only a bonus, and unfortunately, the x264 and x265 settings are too different to be compatible, so I can't use the x265 settings, even slightly modified, to encode with x264.)

Of course, if you encode the 3D version with x264, both versions use the same encoding parameters, and everything is much more simple. And, in that case, the quality of both versions is equivalent. There are still some slight differences due to the absence of avisynth in the 2D procedure, but they should not introduce noticeable quality differences.

This is roughly explained in the dialogue that pops up when you select the x265 encoder, but I forgot to explain that the 2D version uses always x264 and its settings. I'll add that right now...
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Last edited by r0lZ; 26th November 2016 at 06:11.
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Old 28th November 2016, 00:14   #1113  |  Link
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OK, that explains the differences.
However, please forgive my asking but, could you explain why x265 won't accept an AVC stream as input. And how in this respect 3D encoding is different to 2D one for BD3D2MK3D. I mean Handbrake can encode 3DBD as 2D output video with x265.
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Old 28th November 2016, 11:19   #1114  |  Link
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x265 is still much more basic than x264. It doesn't have the stuff necessary to accept many input formats, and it doesn't have the video filters (resize, crop...) that x264 has. x264 accepts an AVC stream, a MKV video, or an avisynth script among many other input formats. AFAIK, x265 accepts only YUV or Y4M input.

For the 3D, BD3D2MK3D requires to build an avisynth script anyway (to combine the two views, hardcode the subtitles, etc...). The script is read directly by x264 32-bit, or it is converted to YUV with avs2yuv.exe first for x264 64-bit and x264 23 and 64-bit.

For the 2D, BD3D2MK3D doesn't build an avisynth script, and therefore it passes the original AVC stream directly to the encoder. That works fine with x264, but that cannot work with x265. AFAIK, there is no simple way to convert the AVC stream to YUV or Y4M on the fly, and therefore BD3D2MK3D doesn't support x265 for the 2D conversion.

It is certainly possible to build an avisynth script that reads the original AVC stream with a good source plugin, and then use avs2yuv to pass it as YUV to x265. Perhaps it's what hadnbrake does. I don't know, because I don't use it. But since the conversion to 2D is not the main job of BD3D2MK3D and has been implemented only at the request of some users, I kept it very simple, and I don't want to do something more complex. However, if someone knows a simple way to make the AVC stream compatible with x265 (perhaps with something like "avc2yuv.exe" if that exists), then I will probably implement the conversion to 2D HEVC. (The resize to 720p will be impossible, but that's another problem.)
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Last edited by r0lZ; 28th November 2016 at 13:35.
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Old 28th November 2016, 14:58   #1115  |  Link
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thanks for this explanation
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Old 12th December 2016, 01:04   #1116  |  Link
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Hello..

Hello.. the issue that I'm having with the application is the encoding quality. I have tried to encode the BFG 3D into a mkv sbs, but the resulting file is less than 8 gig with audio tracks included. I was trying to make a sbs that was at least 12 gig from the original files which are 33+ gigs in size. On any standard 2D bluray, I can manage the quality how I like it, but I'm having issues with your application, as I have tried to manipulate/edi some of the cmd files and others which can have an affect on the encoding rate.. Can anyone give some guidance??
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Old 12th December 2016, 10:37   #1117  |  Link
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What kind of bitrate do you use ? CRF ? VBR ? ABR ? CBR ?
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Old 12th December 2016, 11:05   #1118  |  Link
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Welcome to the Doom9 forums, audiolord !

Why do you want a specific size? Is it not better to target a specific quality? Although somewhat related, size and quality are not identical, and in the case of a movie with very clean images mainly generated with computers (like The BFG), it is possible to compress it very well without much quality loss.

It is totally absurd to pretend that it is necessary to encode at a certain bitrate to obtain a good quality. If you want a good demo, encode a movie made with only black frames at a certain bitrate. Of course, the quality will be perfect. Now, encode a movie made of complex and rapidly changing frames with much noise at the same bitrate. The quality will be terrible! It is therefore impossible to predict the quality of the encoding with a specific bitrate. But if you encode with a reasonable value in CRF mode, the black movie will be perfectly encoded and consume only a few MB, and the complex movie will be equally good but will require much more disc space. Encoding both movies with the same bitrate simply doesn't make sense.

Anyway, it is possible to change the quality of the encoding in the last tab. By default, BD3D2MK3D encodes in CRF mode, and by default I have left the CRF value to the default of the x264 encoder (CRF 23), because IMO that value is an excellent compromise between quality and size. (After all, the programmers of x264 know what they are doing!) Of course, you may prefer to use a lower value if you really think that the quality is not good enough at CRF 23. But do you think that, or do you really see that the quality is bad? IMO, you are victim of a prejudice due to bad information on the internet. Serious tests have proven that the human eye is usually not able to see the difference between a good encoding at CRF 23 and the same encoding at CRF 20 or even lower. Personally, I use values between CRF 18 and CRF 23 depending of the quality of the source image, but IMO it is never useful to encode a movie with lower CRF values. CRF 18 should be reserved to very special cases where the image quality is extremely important. (So far, I have used that value only to encode Sin City 2.)

I've read somewhere that lowering the CRF value by 3 is approximately equivalent to doubling the file size (the bitrate) of the video track. So, if you use CRF 20 instead of 23, the final file size should be around 11 GB, with the audio, but the final file size is difficult to predict because in CRF mode it depends mainly of the difficulty to compress the images. If you really want a specific size, you should use the 2-pass mode, but please DO IT ONLY if you want to put the movie on a media limited in size (like on a DVD). Using 2-pass instead of CRF produces ALWAYS a slightly less good quality, requires much more encoding time and has NO ADVANTAGE at all, except the possibility to define a precise final file size. It is a common mistake to encode in 2-pass, and if it's so frequent, it's probably because peoples recommend absurd encoding settings on the internet.

So to summarise, here are my recommendations: Encode in 2-pass if and only if you really need to control precisely the final file size. Otherwise, encode in CRF and use a CRF value between 18 and 23 depending of your wishes and the quality of the original images. Do not be surprised if your final file size is less than expected, because that means ONLY that the movie was easy to encode, and certainly not that it has been badly encoded. And finally, trust your eyes, and do not trust the bad information on the internet.

[EDIT] Nico has replied before me, but he is right. Your question doesn't make much sense if we don't know what encoding mode you are using.
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Old 14th December 2016, 09:12   #1119  |  Link
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Thanks for the replies. All I did was use the program as it was set up and then started encoding. I will try and lower the CRF to see if it will give me what I was asking...
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Old 20th December 2016, 18:22   #1120  |  Link
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You can indeed add --psnr to the command line for quality measurement. Ignore the error warning of x264, it does NOT effect the encoding process. I always use it. Only speed is getting smaller (< -1 fps).

PSNR:
>= 45 dB = very good, your eyes don't see any difference
>= 44 dB = (very) good
>= 43 dB = satisfaying, good for grainy movies

My encoding of Big Friendly Giant:
BFG 3D (hTAB): CRF=20, PSNR=45.3 dB, 5023 kbit/s
EXCELLENT result!

----
There are big issues in the german GUI of Potplayer, especially the 3d-tabs.
So I have corrected my post #1088 (http://forum.doom9.net/showpost.php?...postcount=1088).

Last edited by frank; 20th December 2016 at 18:40.
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