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26th October 2007, 12:31 | #1 | Link |
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bt.709 and CCE
Dear all,
I use DVD-RB and CCE with the "colormatrix" conversion command because CCE requires bt.709 coeff in order to re-encode (like HC). Then I read the burnt DVD on my DVD player (an oppo hd981) and I choose "RGB output over hdmi". I assume that the player does the conversion between internal YV12 data stored on the DVD to RGB for the hdmi output. which matrix does the player use, bt.601 or bt.709? or Am I totally wrong as there no need for conversion? thanks Francois |
26th October 2007, 13:37 | #3 | Link |
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I thought the same things, but oppo told me that they use bt.601 for the internal YCB to RGB conversion.
after reading the CCE owners guide, it seems that CCE itself work in bt.601. where does come the assumption that CCE work with 709 coeff? (the CCE owner's manual is speaking about bt.601, (see p.51 and p.52) and this link too: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770 (Question.12) Last edited by fjhdavid; 26th October 2007 at 14:28. |
29th October 2007, 01:29 | #5 | Link |
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DVD-RB inputs YUY2 into CCE, then it means that it will input the "DVD orginal color matrix" and it tells only that, it could be rec.601 or rec.709
BUT, where did you read that CCE output Bt.709? because if it's true, we don't need "colormatrix avisynth filter" anymore..... I think CCE doesn't write any color matrix in its header and by default, we are thinking it is bt.709 but the DVD compliant color matrix has always been rec.601 as DVD is only SD anyway, give a try with getgray calibration disc (which is 601), and you will see if CCE output bt.601 or bt.709 Last edited by fjhdavid; 29th October 2007 at 01:51. |
29th October 2007, 04:18 | #6 | Link | |
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Here's some text from the Colormatrix documentation (my boldfacing):
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CCE's site spells out that it outputs in MPEG-2 in accordance with ISO/IEC13818-2, ITU-T Rec.H262 (MP@ML only). CCE doesn't add a sequence_display_extension. The specification for 13818-2 spec page 53 states: "In the case that sequence_display_extension() is not present in the bitstream or colour_description is zero the chromaticity is assumed to be that corresponding to colour_primaries having the value 1." and the value 1: "1 Recommendation ITU-R BT.709" If CCE were not outputting in Rec.709, and was not setting the sequence_display_extension(), it would be writing a non-compliant stream... which I highly doubt. In writing/testing DVD-RB I can assure you that the vast majority of DVD (SD) movies either don't have sequence_display_extension present or have it with a matrix coefficients value set to "1" -- meaning it uses Rec.709. The exceptions I see on a common basis are seen in menus and extras and video from television -- which often are Rec.601 -- and have sequence_display_extension present with a value of "6". Last edited by jdobbs; 29th October 2007 at 13:19. |
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29th October 2007, 10:27 | #7 | Link |
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I think we are facing a real problem.
I completely agree with you that in mpeg2 stream if no header is present, it is bt.709 assumed and that CCE output doesn't exhibit any color matrix header (but maybe it is a mistake!) BUT, all the DVD spec says that DVD MUST be bt.601 compliant because they are SD (I found many place on the WEB and datasheet where it is written) In addition, a lot of DVD player use bt.601 (I asked OPPO developper and Philips and if you read the DVD re-encoded by CCE in this case, you will face a problem) last, if you look at the page 51 and 52 of the CCE owner guide it is written that RGB to YCB is bt.601-5 compliant and the equation gives coeff 601) this link: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770 tends to say the same things that CCE is expecting bt.601 as input , so you must not use any colormatrix conversion before input in CCE... maybe a mail to CCE will answer our question? PS: a lot of PAL DVD commercial are also bt.601...and getgray which is a wellknow calibration DVD is bt.601 also (I asked its author) Last edited by fjhdavid; 29th October 2007 at 11:13. |
29th October 2007, 12:19 | #8 | Link | ||||||
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29th October 2007, 13:15 | #9 | Link |
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a link to DVD player from oppo:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...pp=30&page=144 (response 4308, 4317 and 4320) and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...pp=30&page=145 (response 4324) look to neuromancer post which is working in oppo you can also go to getgray site where it is explained that SD DVD MUST be bt.601 for the CCE owner guide manual: it is said: if you enter the CCE encoder with a RGB signal, it will convert it according to bt.601, then it means that we must NOT use the colormatrix filter if the dvd is bt.601 before entering and that we have to use a bt.709 to bt.601 conversion for a dvd bt.709...(i said that because I use a green correction avisynth filter) THEN why would CCE use bt.601 for input and then bt.709 to output (double conversion)? wouldn't it have been easier to leave everything in bt.709 from the input to the output (especially if all DVD were bt.709)? in addition, I don't prefer bt.601 over bt.709 (you will see in the link I provided that I am a strong advocate of bt.709.....), I just want to know, because I have a lot of DVD which are bt.601 and you have one that are bt.709.... maybe if you own CCE, a quick mail should answer the question... Last edited by fjhdavid; 29th October 2007 at 13:36. |
29th October 2007, 20:11 | #10 | Link | ||||||
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response 4308: Quote:
response 4317: Quote:
response 4320: Quote:
response 4324: Quote:
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I've added a reply in that thread. Let's wait if they come up with any credible evidence. |
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30th October 2007, 04:37 | #12 | Link | ||
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30th October 2007, 05:19 | #13 | Link | |
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maybe this will help
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.4 Quote:
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30th October 2007, 10:00 | #14 | Link |
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Ok, I am sure we will find the answer, but remember, DVD-RB is a tool to re-encode DVD in order to play them with a PC or with a DVD player.
For the DVD player, the MTK pre-processor is used in a lot of products (the output of the MTK chip is then going to a faroudja or an anchorbay or an HQV chip for de-interlacing or scaling, and then for scaling they use bt.709 for 720p and 1080p as it is specified in the HD spec but not SD) and the fact is that MTK is 601 compliant! so even if CCE is bt.709, you won't read correctly your DVD in a lot of commercial or standalone player....as today, this is a fact, and it should be better to ask CCE guys to be bt.601 compliant! this a problem, don't you think? do you think that CCE guys don't know the fact about MTK is 601? so why would they go to bt.709?...surprising if it is true guys from DVE essential and Getgray told me also that DVD is bt.601 and they are (at least for DVE) wellknown in the DVD calibration tool (and i am sure they bought the DVD specs even if it is 5000 dollars) Last edited by fjhdavid; 30th October 2007 at 10:07. |
30th October 2007, 14:44 | #15 | Link | ||||
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30th October 2007, 15:30 | #16 | Link |
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maybe you are right, guys from MTK and Joe Kane from DVE are wrong...but let me have a doubt about that....
DVE is used by professional calibrator and studio broadcaster to calibrate their SD and HD stuff (and DVE is available in two different disc, one for SD in bt.601 and the second for HD in bt.709) MTK is used in philips, Oppo ... Cirrus Logic (an another wellknown and wide used DVD player decoder chip also use bt.601) but have a look to: http://www.pinnaclesys.com/files/Mai...whitepaper.pdf Page 4 and page 15 and http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.1 section 3.4 but, I have an idea: I will re-encode tonight a DVD bt.601 and look with DGindex if CCE write something in the header. If it writes bt.601, it means that CCE simply use the matrix color of the original DVD and dosen't change it... Then for your DVD bt.709, CCE will write nothing as it is bt.709 by default.... an another point is that you refer to 13818-2, but which version? 1995, 1996, 2000 with 2002 correction included or with 2007 corection... if it is the 1995 version, DVD didn't exist at this time, and I am not able to download the other versions Last edited by fjhdavid; 30th October 2007 at 17:35. |
30th October 2007, 17:39 | #17 | Link | ||||
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30th October 2007, 18:43 | #19 | Link | ||
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30th October 2007, 19:02 | #20 | Link |
Straight to video
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By the way, if the OP's goal is to see if his player is correctly displaying CCE-encoded video, why doesn't he simply encode 2 clips in CCE:
A) SMTPE colorbars, Rec.709 B) SMTPE colorbars, Rec.601 ...then burn them to DVD and examine the output on his standalone player. Colorspace conversions using the wrong set of coefficients (Rec.709 vs. Rec.601, or vice-versa) are easy to spot, aren't they? |
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