Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd March 2024, 17:54   #64621  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
hmm like a virus:
https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions

you most likely have 204 which timed completely today or something.

it's been like this for years now i guess you have to get used to it.
the older version crashed when the warning comes and you changed files this time you have the warning for a month and after that no more madVR.

some hotkey don't work with 205 have a pleasant day.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2024, 17:37   #64622  |  Link
mzso
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 930
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
hmm like a virus:
https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions

you most likely have 204 which timed completely today or something.

it's been like this for years now i guess you have to get used to it.
the older version crashed when the warning comes and you changed files this time you have the warning for a month and after that no more madVR.

some hotkey don't work with 205 have a pleasant day.
Well, the last package I had saved was 169. But it didn't give warnings. I guess it could have been missing.
mzso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 00:32   #64623  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
Hi, I cant seem to get 24p to switch when i'm using this set of values in display modes below:

2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2160p30, 2160p50, 2160p59, 2160p60

If I delete these and just have 2160p24 it works

What am I doing wrong?
__________________
LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 00:35   #64624  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
not playing a 24p files but a 23p?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 01:54   #64625  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
yes it will play a 23, 976 no problem, I even checked my TV would go in 24P mode using both Devcon and also display settings, I can't work out why it won't switch to 24P unless I only put 24P in display modes alone and delete everything else.
__________________
LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 11:00   #64626  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
ok let's try again are you playing a 24p files a true rare one a 24.000 not 23.976. playing a 23.976 will not switch to 24p unless it has no other choice because that's wrong.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 18:27   #64627  |  Link
movieman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2023
Location: DFW area TX
Posts: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
yes it will play a 23, 976 no problem, I even checked my TV would go in 24P mode using both Devcon and also display settings, I can't work out why it won't switch to 24P unless I only put 24P in display modes alone and delete everything else.
Check the frame rate of the file with Mediainfo.

https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo/Download

Last edited by movieman; 9th March 2024 at 18:31.
movieman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 21:43   #64628  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
Yes I am playing a 24 Hertz file I don't have many of these
__________________
LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 21:55   #64629  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
screen of the osd?
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2024, 22:04   #64630  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
ctrl+j.
media info doesn't matter only what madVR get's as info matters and it will be in there.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2024, 20:58   #64631  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
I think it was something to do with the way the particular set of videos I was playing were encoded as I found some other 24P videos that are older and they played fine so the issue is not MADVR, It was of the Mafia did recognise the videos as 24P as per osd but was playing them at 60p, I've got rid of them now cheers everybody.
__________________
LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2024, 02:50   #64632  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 471
So today I am playing with de-interlacing a DVD for the first time in a long time. I was trying different players, various hardware and software algorithms, etc. when I stumbled upon one that was noticeably clearer than the rest, though all did de-interlace.

If you have an old TV show (this one here was filmed in the 1970s) that was converted to DVD (which is interlaced), chances are high that it is using a 3:2 pulldown to make it 30i.

MadVR's deinterlacing option "force film mode" will use inverse telecine. "force film mode: force IVTC, reconstructing the original progressive frames from video encoded as interlaced, decimating duplicate frames if necessary. madVR's IVTC is not functional when using DXVA2 or D3D11 native GPU decoding because madVR's IVTC algorithm runs on the CPU and the decoded video data is never copied to system memory."

Video mode doesn't use IVTC.

In automatic it didn't seem to recognize the 3:2 and used video mode, but visually and logically I felt it must be using 3:2, so forcing it to film mode fixed that.

I also played around with adaptive QS HW deinterlacing and one caveat I'd make for that, other than that it's a little blurrier than MadVR's film mode, I believe it also manipulates the chroma because even though it still says SMPTE C in the HUD and while the output is fine, it was slightly hotter than MadVR's software-only mode. It's something to be mindful of because it means chroma will get touched twice unless you use dxva chroma or whatever.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2024, 06:08   #64633  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
video mode in madVR is pretty much the same as QS deint and the deint in other player because it is just DXVA 2 deint.

these usually also IVTC but they don't decimate.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2024, 22:31   #64634  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 471
In today's installment of 'twiddle settings':

These old TV series that were filmed on 24 fps film and converted to 29.97 NTSC DVDs via 3:2 pulldown, for best playing results when using madvr's "film mode" deinterlacing for inverse telecine (video mode doesn't have ivtc), change the Hz of your display to 48 Hz even though the material is reported as 29.97 instead of leaving the display at 60 Hz. Internally the original frames are 24 fps, and if your display is at 48, it'll sync up better.

The internal rate of 24 being produced can be confirmed by the fact that smooth motion will turn itself on at 50 and 60 Hz, but off at 48 Hz which proves that there are 24 frames not 30.

Smooth motion at 60 makes it a little too smooth due to the nature of it blending adjacent frames together. This is better than interpolating a brand new frame like TVs do (awful) but it's still a blending. I usually have this feature off, but it was helpful for testing purposes here.

I think for 720x480 DVDs, it is arguably better to upscale using madvr to native resolution and 48 Hz, than fighting with custom parameters to output 720x480 24 Hz. You can do this, but the downside is that it will need to be upscaled anyway and it's a question mark whether the panel can do a good job. On my old monitor, it does not do a good job upscaling from 480 to 1152. The second challenge is that square aspect pixel ratios on old stuff, madvr needs to downscale the image in the X dimension to make the presention right. It is blurrier than if madvr does the scaling to native itself because you would end up scaling twice. Once downscaling in X to fix the aspect ratio, and then a second time in X and Y to fit the panel by the panel. Better to just do one scaling pass instead of two using the algorithm of your choice. Making the panel work at 24 is iffy (custom parameters again).
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2024, 23:46   #64635  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
every working hardware deinterlacer is ivtcing this is not a joke.
it's even part of the DXVA2 spec a driver can even tell if it is able to do that or not. the problem is they don't decimate they simple can't anyway. the supported IVTC modes can literally be listed in the DXVA info.

madVR will automatically use 23p in film mode even with 2:2 material if possible or 120 48 what ever.

smooth motion is incapable of making something smoother then the original frame rate in the best of all cases it looks the same. if it is smoother your display is broken like frame skipping or broken 23p a Samsung special.

720x480 and 720x576 and it doesn't matter because these are not display resolution by itself because it can be 16x9 or 4x3 you can technically output without scaling.

madVR never does simple scaler in one go and the assuming that doing something one time is better then otherwise is false. madVR does x first followed by Y which will literally result in the same result as a one pass scaler. why someone would ever let a panel scale a custom resolution beyond me anyway it will be bilinear and no surpirse for everyone.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2024, 09:14   #64636  |  Link
Klaus1189
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 1,667
Samsung special - 23p broken? What product was affected?
Klaus1189 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2024, 14:02   #64637  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,913
it's an old story back in the native 60 HZ panel time and back when they said they have like 9000 hz samsung was often incapable of doing 23p natively they just did 3:2 even on some close to flagship TVs. while LG and sony where able do that even on 60 Hz panel (maybe they just run at 48 i don't know) as long as the TV was not an entry class TV they could do it.
that was the same time where panasonic was able to do 23p correctly but only outside of PC mode it was glorious adding 3:2 (6:4 in this case) to a native 120 HZ panel marble of engineering.

an example is the KU7000.

BTW. samsung LG and sony can turn 60p with 23p in it into 23p in real time. times change.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2024, 14:40   #64638  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 471
Complicated, and stuff is different from setup to setup. Great example, I have a Steam Deck and last night I wanted to see what AMD's deinterlace looked like (in Linux). It looked horrible, very low-resolution like an old video game. Completely unwatchable. I looked it up and saw some thread complaints here and there talking about how AMD is in the process of losing hardware support for de-interlacing (including in Windows), which means on AMD any support for it moving forward is going to have to be a software-only solution, I guess to go along with the pre-existing hardware decoding chroma issue.

My panel is Samsung manufactured and is from 2010, so this might be the same time period huhn is referring to.. I'll have to try again to get that madvr test motion clip to work, I tried in the past but it didn't play at all.

In Windows, my igpu is Intel (and really, for htpc this is probably one of the better solutions since it has working chroma and deinterlacing). Flossycake gave me a telecine test clip and the results were interesting.. there is a test pattern at the beginning then people in the next section (I think the cadences are changing too). I played it through a bunch of stuff to see the results as I noticed the section with people after the test pattern had combing in it.

madvr film mode (runs on cpu), combing
madvr video mode (runs on gpu), no combing
lav's adaptive hw qs w/ madvr deint off, combing.
lav's software algos w/ madvr deint off, combing.
mpc-be's decoder w/ evr-cp in dxva-hd mode, no combing.
mpc-be's decoder w/ mpc-vr in software mode, combing.
mpc-be's decoder w/ mpc-vr in hardware dxva mode, no combing.
mpv default settings, combing.
vlc auto, no combing.
microsoft films&tv, no combing.

I was surprised that madvr's film mode failed and produced combing because it has decimation and the other stuff.. but there was a real difference with this test clip.

The original reason I got into letting the panel scale was because of less system resources needed since I would only scale chroma and mostly because it supported 23p, 24p, 25p, etc. in 1920x1080 out of the box without my having to make custom modelines to make it work at native resolution. When I use 1920x1080 at 23p or whatever, the MadVR HUD tells me frame drop is on the order of days. Is the HUD accurate? I don't know. It claims everything is fine, but it doesn't mean it is if the panel is lying. I don't even need to scale, I could also just set the aspect ratio to 1:1 in the menu instead of fill or aspect which just means a smaller picture without any image scaling performed. But is it truly 23.976? the MadVR HUD claims it is, but I just don't know. Accepting a signal doesn't mean it is processing it as expected. I am able to overclock (I don't) this panel past 60, but when I do, it still displays a picture but it starts dropping frames visibly.. motion becomes choppy.

I'm still suspicious about smooth motion. It is frame blending, the image is being manipulated. I have read that one might see blur on edges in motion which you wouldn't see on a "true" vsync. Both setting 48 w/o smooth motion and and 60 w/ smooth motion look similar, but I still feel the smooth motion looks a tiny bit too smooth (though not as bad as the soap opera effect).. in other words, my eyes feels the movement of the people isn't quite fast enough or separated enough. Feels like I have to work harder watching.

So yeah, I'll have to try again to see if I can make that test clip work. Too many variables in play.

Last edited by Sunspark; 14th March 2024 at 14:44.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2024, 15:29   #64639  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 471
Finally, I have solved it.. the reason madTestPatternSource (link is in the first post of this thread) doesn't work is because it's a 32-bit app.

In order to make the .ytp files work without replacing your existing 64-bit install, what you need to do (beyond the initial install of the testpatterns) is you need to grab the 32-bit version of mpc-hc or whatever 32-bit version of the directshow player you use, not the install .exe but the .zip instead, e.g. "MPC-HC.2.1.7.2.x86.zip". Then you can unzip to a folder, run the exe from the folder and drag the .ytp files to it and it will play without replacing your existing 64-bit install.

Last edited by Sunspark; 14th March 2024 at 20:52.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2024, 16:12   #64640  |  Link
Sunspark
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 471
Ok I need help with the test pattern.. what am I supposed to be seeing?

Using "SmoothMotion24.ytp" as an example seems to look the same whether I have smooth motion on or off at native resolution/edid refresh. Changing it to 1920x1080@24 and running it in a window so no image scaling is performed still looks the same whether I have smooth motion on or off as it does in native.

Am I looking at the wrong thing? What am I supposed to be noticing? The top bars look blurred no matter what.

Update: Ok, I can see it now. I think my panel is a fake 23,24,25, etc. With the test pattern, if I block the bottom 3 bars with my arms and look at the top 3 moving at say, 48 with SM off, I can see judder (or stutter?).. at 59.876 with SM on, it doesn't have the same kind of judder, BUT it looks like text is vibrating on a plate.. this is more pronounced if you again use your arms and look at the 3rd row up from the bottom.. more blurry at 60 w/ SM on than at 48 w/ SM off. So, the tradeoff is sharper text clarity with some slight judder vs less judder (or more constant steady pulsed judder) with blurrier text as a result.

Last edited by Sunspark; 14th March 2024 at 17:22.
Sunspark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.