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Old 28th September 2010, 09:43   #141  |  Link
Doom9
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setarip_old does not have a team badge.. his word has no special meaning. And he's been instructed publicly and privately by other mods and myself to leave the moderating up to those with the badge and use the report button.

I can't say I understand why you'd strip copy protection to add a new one then though. That makes zero sense to me but that's just me.

Quote:
You believe questioning authority is a privilege.
I am suggesting the exact opposite, i.e. those in authority should be bombarded with questions that challenge their "authoritative" statements and their authoritative status.
I guess we agree to disagree. I'm in a difficult position here.. pretty much everybody I talk to has no experience being in my position (long time admin of a sizeable board whose membership spans the globe). Tell you what... that position isn't exactly desireable most of the time. You do things right, and everybody thinks that's how it should be. Anything goes wrong and you automatically become the bad guy. It is very difficult to get certain points across when the guy you're arguing with sees things from their perspective, and you need to consider what a combination of gut feeling, experience and standards of social interactions in your culture tell you and to make sure the large majority of those 170'000 members is being kept happy. I do not fault anybody for considering their perspective - it's normal. But at times I wished that those who critizise had a little experience where they'd have to put their own opinion on the back burner and had to give more weight to things that they do not necessarily agree with.

Say you have an issue with a moderator. You will naturally consider your opinion as the one that counts. The moderator, however, might not necessarily have that luxury. His opinion on how things should be handled can be overridden - there are the moderator rules, and an admin with his own opinion for starters. Then there might be experience from previous similar issues that might jade your outlook on things. And it's not exactly easy to argue with that baggage.

Personally I've found it much easier to talk rules and enforcement to people who've been in my shoes - we might not agree (I've had my own very forceful arguments with admins on other boards myself), but in the end, there's a basic understanding on certain things. That understanding isn't necessarily there when talking to people who lack that background.

It's like when you've lived in your own country for your entire life. Go out there into the world once, experience how things work in a different country, and it will give you a different perspective, guaranteed (I lived a year abroad and it certainly applied to me). Coming back however, you'll find it extremely difficult to try to explain to those that remained behind why certain things that are accepted as the norm in your own country might not necessarily be the best way of handling things. You can't really fault them for not seeing it because they just have their perspective. But it leaves you in an uncomfortable position.

Quote:
(Edit: Actually, that rule hits the point with accurate precision, but in the exact opposite direction, by explicitly forcing the behavior of an authoritative role.)
What are moderators then? They do have a position of authority - that's a given. So, they should act accordingly. And, you are incorrect to suggest that members cannot argue their point with a moderator. They most certainly can. We do have a bunch of threads active right now where there are tons of rule 16 and rule 17 violations. Yet, you don't see strikes flying. And, you do not see just how many times strikes are rescinded because the mod who handed it out and the member get to talk reasonable together in PMs, and they manage to sort out their differences amicably and then the mod asks me to rescind the strike. I will obviously always honor such a request.

I think it would be a mistake to throw caution to the wind and start making wide reaching changes without proper reflection just because of one incident. Most of the time, the established mechanisms we have do work just fine. And when something that doesn't work fine is brought to my attention, measures are taken. E.g. you should now be informed if content is removed and given an explanation why that step was taken. With that knowledge, you can then decide on the next step. Is the explanation satisfactory? If not, you can try to argue your point. Make sure you are being civil though. You know what happens if you pick a fight with a cop, or a judge. Assaulting a police officer will get you arrested. Getting into a judges face will get you in contempt and fined or you spend the night in jail. Get into the face of your commanding officer in the army and you spend the night in the brig. Call your boss at work an asshole and you might be out of a job. Getting into the face of whatever authority, there are always consequences, and you should be mindful of that. Most people seem to understand that - but some unfortunately think that just because they're online, they can throw caution to the wind. As it so happens, those are the ones that often will find themselves stuck or even suspended.

Also, there are legal reasons why I do need to have the last word. There are laws that govern what can happen on a board anybody runs... those are local laws. If they are not being followed, owners and or operators risk legal consequences. It cannot be that just because a few "established members" that live halfway across the world and have no idea about the applicable laws, get to decide something that will land me or Swede in prison. I'm concinved you will not find a single admin anywhere on this planet that's willing to risk that. Well, maybe some don't care, but those that do care will insist that they have the ultimate, unchallenged, authority.

For instance, we have a German sister board. In Germany, there are laws that put you into serious risk if you only link to the homepage of Slysoft (because they make AnyDVD (HD)). Personally, I think that's bull. However, even though the board carries my name, I do have to defer to the local admin on that matter. In fact, there even was some legal action at one time. It would be highly irresponsible for anyone to ask that they take the appropriate measures to make sure this does not happen again.
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Old 28th September 2010, 11:14   #142  |  Link
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Moderators have the position of authority to enforce the rules - that's a given.
The problem arises when those given the power of authority (currently moderators, but soon VIPs, etc.) make "authoritative" statements (or incite pessimistic accusations), which they are not qualified to make (but aren't against the rules), which can lead to the spread of FUD, which can lead to fights, strikes and bans.

I guess we agree to disagree.

Last edited by Bi11; 29th September 2010 at 05:58. Reason: better wording
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Old 28th September 2010, 13:01   #143  |  Link
Mug Funky
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fwiw, a forum is not a democracy...

this is doom9, not wikileaks.
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Old 28th September 2010, 13:11   #144  |  Link
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exactly, this is DOOM9's FORUM... as i already said infinite times...
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Old 28th September 2010, 14:19   #145  |  Link
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A moderator with the status ombudsman, is perhaps the solution..

"The post of ombudsman is an address for general complaints on the part of Users who disagree with decisions that have been made or feel that they have been treated unfairly."
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Old 28th September 2010, 18:53   #146  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom9 View Post
setarip_old does not have a team badge.. his word has no special meaning. And he's been instructed publicly and privately by other mods and myself to leave the moderating up to those with the badge and use the report button.
But he won't stop doing that because he gets some bizzare form of self-satisfaction when he accosts someone for potentially having copyrighted materials.
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Old 29th September 2010, 03:31   #147  |  Link
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do i miss something or everyone is just free to ask if it does not brake the rules?
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Old 29th September 2010, 04:04   #148  |  Link
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Well mods have instructed him not to do it since he can simply file a report and doesn't need to publicly accuse the person...
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Old 29th September 2010, 04:09   #149  |  Link
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it seems i've missed that. however, if that's what's happening just report his (incriminated) posts to a mod or using the report button.
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Old 29th September 2010, 06:08   #150  |  Link
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Just a thought...
If a non-moderator assumes the authoritative position of a moderator (i.e. pretends to be that role model by making "authoritative" statements, or tries to do the work, etc.) then that post can be reported to a moderator. Doing so should stop the spread of FUD caused by the non-moderator's incorrect statements. In this case, the moderator is the one qualified to make and judge such authoritative statements (i.e. related to rule enforcement) by virtue of having moderator status.
Generalizing...
If a non-authority assumes the authoritative position of an authority (i.e. pretends to be that role model by making "authoritative" statements, or tries to do the work, etc.) then that post can be reported to a ?moderator? ?authority?. Doing so should stop the spread of FUD caused by the non-authority's incorrect statements. In this case, the authority is the one qualified to make and judge such authoritative statements (i.e. domain-specific subject matter) by virtue of having authoritative status.
If such a post is reported then how can a moderator authoritatively judge those "authoritative" statements if the moderator isn't qualified (domain-specific knowledge, etc.) to do so?
Perhaps that's the issue being alluded to by Kurtnoise...
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Old 29th September 2010, 08:32   #151  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharktooth View Post
do i miss something or everyone is just free to ask if it does not brake the rules?
Yes you are missing the report button.

If you are in doubt putting suspicion on a fellow member in public is definitely not the right way to handle this.
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Old 29th September 2010, 17:48   #152  |  Link
Doom9
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Quote:
But he won't stop doing that because he gets some bizzare form of self-satisfaction when he accosts someone for potentially having copyrighted materials.
And that's exactly why we have rule 16 on the books. Some rules do have an inofficial name which corresponds to the serial offender that was the most influential in why the rule was created.
setarip would be well served in reading the PM exchange we had in May 2008.

Quote:
"The post of ombudsman is an address for general complaints on the part of Users who disagree with decisions that have been made or feel that they have been treated unfairly."
Our FAQ has to say on that
Quote:
I disagree with the actions taken by a moderator

If you do not agree with the conduct of a moderator, please use the 'Contact Us' link at the bottom to lodge a complaint. We'll get back to you as soon as possible.

Please refrain from complaining in the thread itself, starting a new thread to complain about that moderator, or pick a fight with the moderator - your chances of successfully resolving anything will be decimated by taking such action.
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Old 29th September 2010, 20:36   #153  |  Link
ricardo.santos
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Hi everyone!

I've been a member of this forum for 5 years, i've learned "most" of what i know from here, as a user and small contributter i find it unfair what some users said, some want the abbility to contest mods and their decisions but anyone that has managed a forum knows that is a "ticket" to the END, in my oppinion giving users the abbility to "contest" everything will ruin the forum and (in my opinion) i kind of think this whole "storm" was made to do exactly that.

The forum hierarchy needs to be respected, i don┤t see anything wrong with it, some of the users that complained about Neuron here were behaving poorly over here (insulting users, always talking in a "god like manner") preventing first time visitors to even ask a second question because they were being treated unfairly sometimes insulted

Sure there were a few times when neuron was a bit strict and wasnt patient, nobody is perfect and like doom9 said this is a worldwide forum not some small community forum, it envolvs a lot of work and hours.... i wont even talk about the money (hosting etc)

Some might find it strange but as a user im perfectly fine how the forum is, if someone thinks they're bigger than this community and feel they can treat people like dirt feel free to move on, i actually think the forum lost some of its appeal due to attitude that some "god like users" were having here towards everyone that had a different oppinion.

Last edited by ricardo.santos; 29th September 2010 at 20:40.
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Old 29th September 2010, 21:53   #154  |  Link
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Rule 4 says "be nice to each other" but naturally there are some here who get on my nerves, and apparently I am not alone in this regard.

I have seen a few boards e.g. NetworkedMediaTank where there are Reputation and Thanks records on each user--I dunno how this works but it occurs to me that if there were a way for members to "rate" other members posts (with the absence of derogatory language) perhaps it would help to modify some members' behavior here. A new board software, I know--just a thought.

Shame can be a powerful motivator!
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Old 29th September 2010, 22:46   #155  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserfan View Post
I have seen a few boards e.g. NetworkedMediaTank where there are Reputation and Thanks records on each user-

...

A new board software, I know--just a thought.
AFAIK, vBulletin already supports those "features" ,
it's just a matter of practical implementation.

Quote:
-I dunno how this works but it occurs to me that if there were a way for members to "rate" other members posts (with the absence of derogatory language) perhaps it would help to modify some members' behavior here.

Shame can be a powerful motivator!
Maybe you're right, however I'm not sure if I'd like to be classified as "an unknown quantity at this point".
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Old 29th September 2010, 23:40   #156  |  Link
ricardo.santos
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I just read a thread on the other site and just as i thought... some PM's were published from doom9 and everyone can see (if i followed the ugly quote system correctly) that one of them cursed a few times and spooke in a "godly" manner while the other one was polite, maybe doom9 could publish a few threads where that person was behaving inappropriately... i can remember lots of them towards newbies... i know he wont but i certainly would like too.

what i often witnessed here aswell was a "clash of minds", the big guys trying to be smarter and always right about something and always pinpointed the other side "tiny" mistakes just to stay on top (god like manner) i wouldnt like that if i was on the other side and the situation kind of evolved into something bigger ....that's my opinion anyway...
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Old 30th September 2010, 02:37   #157  |  Link
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I understand your points though you are a little bit late, things have mostly settled down.

Last edited by stax76; 30th September 2010 at 02:39.
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Old 30th September 2010, 07:40   #158  |  Link
Bi11
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I've been looking through "The rules explained" thread and I've noticed all the follow-up posts are about rule 6. This is just another thought, so take it fwiw...
A member starts a thread asking for help with a source.
A moderator makes the claim/suspects/accuses/asks for clarification about the legitimacy of the source.
The accused member replies, "The source/content in question is not illegitimate." So the member is essentially saying, "I am innocent until you prove me guilty."
What can/should the moderator do at this point?
Just guessing possible options...
1. The moderator can assume the authority of the strictest DMCA authority (or whoever else Doom9 fears), then attempt to prove the accused guilty (perhaps by explicitly basing the accusation/suspicion on evidence from the existing post(s), which the moderator thinks is sufficient to make the claim, as well as rooting their claim in at least one existing law, which the DMCA, or similar authority, would use to do whatever it is Doom9 fears they could do if no action was taken). Thereafter, if the accused is unable to defend their innocence by responding appropriately to the (presumably sufficiently substantial) evidence put forward by the moderator, then rule 6 is enforced, i.e. the accused member is struck and the thread is closed.
2. The moderator can assume a priori "accused member is guilty until proven innocent", and so continue to demand that the accused member prove his/her innocence. Upon failing to do so, the accused member is struck for rule 6 violation, the thread is closed, and the moderator pats himself on the back, saying, "ignorance is bliss."
The explanation of rule 6 clearly prescribes option 2 as the action the moderator should take, i.e. better safe than shut-down.
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Old 30th September 2010, 09:06   #159  |  Link
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I think the biggest problem this forum faces towards the authorities is not the presence of downloaded material (which is not a priori illegal, otherwise RapidShare&Co likewise many other similar services, say torrents and Usenet would have been shut down). Yes, downloading can be illegal and dangerous...

Yet more dangerous is the uploading. Such posts are not usually noticed, because the mods blindly hunt "downloads", because this is how Rule 6 was formulated. Why more dangerous? Because uploading copyrighted materials is punishable (also harder than downloading) under most jurisdictions. Downloading is not [always]. To give a short example that concerns this forum too, youtube is full of so called AMVs, clips copied from anime that have the latest music hit as the background. Such a master-work infringes the copyright on at least 3 counts (depending on the country): it's not covered by fair-use (because it's longer than allowed and it supersedes the original intent), it infringes the CR of the movie and that of the audio. No wonder that many AMVs were deleted from youtube, as they are illegal in at least 186 countries out of an existing total of 193-203.

These posts can be easily recognised, but that's the job for mods, anyway

Per Rule 17 this is not a criticism of Rule 6, just an exposÚ of facts.
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Old 30th September 2010, 09:34   #160  |  Link
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You can't really upload anything here. These things are concerns for youtube and vimeo and the like, not for doom9. There is not really anyway to discern is someone is doing just a back up of his things or if he is preparing something for an upload, unless he specifically states so and even then I doubt doom9 could be held liable as he is not really a party in this.

Actually, I think a similar thing can be said for downloading, but then an actual breach has already occurred, so I understand why he doesn't want to take his chances.

Last edited by GodofaGap; 30th September 2010 at 09:41.
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