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Old 19th September 2010, 20:18   #121  |  Link
HJRodrigo
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Sorry to hear about your sickness. Forget about this mess, heal up, and when you feel better deal with it if you need to.
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Old 19th September 2010, 21:28   #122  |  Link
Bi11
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@Doom9: I agree the court system is very complex and not realistically practical. However, if a forum wanted to go down the path of transparency and accountability when enforcing rules, then I suspect it would be similar to a court system.

W.r.t. spam posts and posts that obviously don't belong/contribute/constructive to this forum then those posts are simply deleted, no hearing needed. The members who made those post knew fully well they were intentionally breaking the rules for no constructive reason.

W.r.t "prevention better than court", the point is to move follow-up discussions relating to the inquiry/warning to a private thread, or possibly hiding that off-topic discussion from members other than the moderator and member in question, to allow the flow of the thread to remain on-topic. You don't see police officers stopping a car in the middle of the freeway to check for valid licence and insurance.

W.r.t. fights and grudges, all those related posts/threads would be thrown in a court case (which now acts as a graveyard). A super moderator could allow only some members to discuss/defend themselves in the case.
The point again is to pull that off-topic discussion out of the main forum so members browsing old threads would see a continuous flow of constructive on-topic posts without any administrative discussions in between. The court forum is outside the main forums, so members won't see those closed cases unless they go looking for them.

W.r.t. the rules of this forum (and whatever explanations you use to justify them) is not the problem.
The problem arises in enforcement (or lack thereof) of the rules when a member or moderator supposedly breaks a rule. You don't see police officers charging/arresting people, locking them in jail, then throwing away the key; people are entitled to a hearing/trial, which future cases can openly draw upon when resolving disputes.

Voluntarily moderating the forum is one of the points where the moderator/police analogy breaks down. Otherwise I could say police sometimes risk their lives every day in enforcing the law and apprehending dangerous criminals, but just one mistake and the court comes down hard on them.

Also, I am not appealing the court system; it is simply the end result of a thought experiment that asks "how can members and moderators co-exists and resolve disputes peacefully in light of disputes that arise from time-to-time?"

In the end... I see no realistic way for an administrator with total control over a forum and its community to ever willingly allow a system of transparency and accountability to functionally exists that questions the authority of the administrator and his elite.

Hope you get well soon.
This thread should be put to rest.
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Old 19th September 2010, 22:42   #123  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
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Perhaps part of the problem is. Although the Doom9 forum has a lot of moderators. Not many of them are pro-actively moderating: -
Code:
Moderator Name   Last Post 
ammck55          3rd  February  2009 
Arky             6th  September 2010
atreides93       17th April     2009 
auenf            4th  December  2009
avih             5th  August    2010
bb               22nd August    2010
benwaggoner      19th September 2010
Blue_MiSfit      19th September 2010
Blutach          12th September 2010 
Bond             30th March     2009
Cyberia          6th  April     2006
D3s7             11th July      2007
DaveEL           22nd November  2009
easy2Bcheesy     14th September 2010
foxyshadis       9th  September 2010
Hiro2k           19th April     2007
influenza        6th  September 2007
jdobbs           6th  September 2010
jel              15th April     2008
jggimi           3rd  November  2009
karl_lillevold   11th April     2008
killingspree     23rd June      2006
Koepi            11th March     2009
len0x            6th  June      2009 
LIGHTNING UK!    2nd  September 2010 
LoRd_MuldeR      19th September 2010      
monono           17th September 2010
mpucoder         16th September 2010 
mrbass           22nd July      2010 
Neo Neko         2nd  March     2006
neuron2          19th September 2010
Nic              8th  September 2010
Nick             14th August    2010
Richard Berg     24th March     2008
Scipio           21st July      2008
sh0dan           21st July      2010
Teegedeck        25th November  2007
TheWEF           26th October   2003
Trahald          19th September 2010
ukendt           10th June      2010 
Wilbert          17th September 2010
wmansir          1st  November  2009
Zeul             4th  October   2007
Our moderators need help...
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Last edited by SeeMoreDigital; 20th September 2010 at 23:06.
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Old 19th September 2010, 22:58   #124  |  Link
laserfan
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I think inactive mods should absolutely be replaced, though SMD I'm not sure how you came-by your list give jdobbs is shown as last posting in 2007!!! How many other errors are in there...

Last edited by laserfan; 19th September 2010 at 23:03. Reason: I said "dropped" where I meant "replaced"!
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Old 20th September 2010, 10:54   #125  |  Link
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I vote for Tebasuna51 as Audio Encoding mod instead of Blue_Misfit & Lord_Mulder...
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Old 23rd September 2010, 04:34   #126  |  Link
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Wow. I can't believe I missed this thread until now. Probably for the better though.
Social interaction on the internet is very interesting in that people have the tendency to become quite hostile over what is considered to be, in a face to face interaction, simple inconsideration or just a gruff attitude. In the little I read of this thread I have seen many statements which would result in a physical altercation if they were made in a bar for example. I hope that any one who says rude things to me here on the Doom9 forum would also be willing to come to me personally and make the same statement.
Generally I avoid getting involved in this kind of situation but I had two questions to ask:
Is the moderation team also subject to Rule #4?
Is the enforcement of Rule #4 generally in high priority at this point in time?
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Old 24th September 2010, 09:09   #127  |  Link
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Is the moderation team also subject to Rule #4?
Yes, the rules apply to every member and a moderator is a member, too. However, while technically possible, I do no strike moderators - instead I ask them to cut the bad language. If that doesn't help, I have to take more dramatic actions.
Quote:
Is the enforcement of Rule #4 generally in high priority at this point in time?
Yes. When there's bad words between members, it has the potential to erupt into a bar fight so that needs to be contained immediately. As far as verbatim profanity goes... personally I do not consider this to be a problem. However, that's one of the reasons where my private opinion takes a backseat to what I think is better for the community. There are people from all ages and social backgrounds... when in the presence of kids, adults should moderate their language. And, in certain countries, the random s*** or f*** weighs a lot more than it does where I'm from.

Quote:
I think inactive mods should absolutely be replace
It's actually part of the moderator rules. I only check activity a few times a year though.. last time it was early this year so I guess it's that time again.
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Old 24th September 2010, 11:09   #128  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtnoise View Post
I vote for Tebasuna51 as Audio Encoding mod instead of Blue_Misfit & Lord_Mulder...
Personally, they are all good choices Kurt. As is your good-self
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Old 26th September 2010, 16:56   #129  |  Link
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i have to make a little comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bi11 View Post
The Established member rule is "probably not feasible" because this forum's rules (17,3,11 to be specific) stifle constructive free speech.
even free speech does have rules/limitations in most countries, for example in regards to incitement or hate speech. large forums do not work where anyone can say whatever they want. they eventually become a mess.

also the established member idea doesnt work either. for the simple fact that being an established member doesnt mean you know what you are talking about or are incapable of being wrong on something. i know several established members on here that are respected by many that i know spout absolute nonsense at times.

---

the simple fact is that forums such as this have rules and procedures for dealing with contesting accused violations. people either need to accept that or go else where.

of course sometimes procedures can fail sometimes and adjustments need to be made to rules. people need to approach that though in a constructive way by broaching the issue with the higher powers. if you think a MOD has breached a rule or a new rule should exist etc etc etc then PM a MOD about it. if not satisfied with the response go further up the chain.
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Old 26th September 2010, 20:54   #130  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragongodz View Post
i have to make a little comment.



even free speech does have rules/limitations in most countries, for example in regards to incitement or hate speech. large forums do not work where anyone can say whatever they want. they eventually become a mess.

also the established member idea doesnt work either. for the simple fact that being an established member doesnt mean you know what you are talking about or are incapable of being wrong on something. i know several established members on here that are respected by many that i know spout absolute nonsense at times.
I think the primary purpose of an "established member" rule is so that moderators can deal more quickly with brand-new members blatantly violating rules (e.g. piracy) without allowing moderators to deal as quickly and unilaterally with anyone else.
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Old 26th September 2010, 22:57   #131  |  Link
Bi11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bi11 View Post
Voluntarily moderating the forum is one of the points where the moderator/police analogy breaks down. Otherwise I could say police sometimes risk their lives every day in enforcing the law and apprehending dangerous criminals, but just one mistake and the court comes down hard on them.
Thinking about it, the same applies to established members as well. They contribute constructively to the community, but if they dare question the authority of a moderator then they get treated like criminals (well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the link should be clear).
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Old 27th September 2010, 12:38   #132  |  Link
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
Personally, they are all good choices Kurt. As is your good-self
Frankly not...
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Old 27th September 2010, 19:25   #133  |  Link
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I think the primary purpose of an "established member" rule is so that moderators can deal more quickly with brand-new members blatantly violating rules (e.g. piracy) without allowing moderators to deal as quickly and unilaterally with anyone else.
The history of a member is already being considered.... we're more lenient with brand new members, especially on the tricky rules (like title, what's best and the likes).
Though, the number of post and when an account has created should not give you a free pass to violate the rules.
Even though we don't have an official VIP class (yet), there are individuals that I believe have made significant contributions - so they'll get some sort of unofficial VIP treatment. E.g. they are more likely to get strikes reversed. But, I believe if you're amongst those who get special treatment, you should reciprocate by being a model member.

And speaking of which, more than a week ago I added rule 15, which I consider to be probably the most important one - and it's one very dear to me heart. You wear the badge, you're a role model and should act accordingly. I consider that to be common sense. As they say, with power comes responsability.
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Old 27th September 2010, 20:12   #134  |  Link
Bi11
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Mod-rule 15 misses the point.
(Edit: Actually, that rule hits the point with accurate precision, but in the exact opposite direction, by explicitly forcing the behavior of an authoritative role.)

In case my last post wasn't clear enough... "authority" means opinion stated in an authoritative manner such that "no one must question it."
(Edit: "authority" can also mean implicit pessimistic accusations, such as this post.)

What happens when a moderator (or VIP, etc.) makes such an "authoritative" statement?
Should members leave the forum (to avoid breaking certain forum rules else they'll be treated like criminals) and let the FUD spread?

Last edited by Bi11; 27th September 2010 at 23:33. Reason: Principle behind mod-rule 15 is the problem
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Old 28th September 2010, 01:00   #135  |  Link
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@Doom9

Hi!

With regard to (referred to by Bi11") Posts #5 and #6 at:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...71#post1446471

I believe they present a good example of member and moderator cooperation, with a member carefully abiding by Rule #6 regarding an unclear posting by the OP:
Quote:
6) No warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content! Links to content of a questionable nature (e.g. anything you don't own and/or have downloaded), asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated.
- and a proper handling by the moderator (requesting clarifying information, which could have been a simple, "Yes, I'm referring to homemade family movies").

By doing this, should the original post be deemed in violation of Rule #6, members (as has happened on occasion in the past) cannot possibly be struck for "offering or helping to process such content in any way."
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Old 28th September 2010, 02:30   #136  |  Link
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actually, in my opinion that's what the report button is for.

i don't wish to be a vigilante - i'll help where i can, but i fail to see why members without moderator status should badger people who are asking questions. if i have a suspicion, i'll report the post and a moderator can deal with it.

putting myself in the OP's shoes, i'd be extremely annoyed if i'd waited the 5 day period, posted a question and then just been treated by a fellow member of equal status (post count != status) as if i were doing something wrong.
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Old 28th September 2010, 07:59   #137  |  Link
setarip_old
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@Mug Funky

Hi!

I'm guessing you're referring to Post #2 to the thread at:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...71#post1446471

that says:
Quote:
You shouldn't be giving your "back-ups" to other people!
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Old 28th September 2010, 08:35   #138  |  Link
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I second Mug Funky's post.
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Old 28th September 2010, 08:36   #139  |  Link
Bi11
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Since this thread seems to be going down the drain, I might as well respond to the reply Doom9 will probably make, before this thread gets locked-down.

@Doom9
You believe questioning authority is a privilege.
I am suggesting the exact opposite, i.e. those in authority should be bombarded with questions that challenge their "authoritative" statements and their authoritative status.

Most likely, "authoritative" statements made by specialist/authoritative figures on the matter would generally be accepted as being true or based on facts/references.
However, "authoritative" statements made by non-authoritative figures on the matter would/should be questioned constructively to avoid the spreading of FUD.

Explicitly forcing the expected behavior of an authoritative role is a good strategy, but only if questioning of those "authoritative" statements are allowed to be more amicable.

Last edited by Bi11; 28th September 2010 at 08:39.
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Old 28th September 2010, 09:24   #140  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by setarip_old View Post
[Color=Blue]@Doom9

Hi!

With regard to (referred to by Bi11") Posts #5 and #6 at:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...71#post1446471

I believe they present a good example of member and moderator cooperation, with a member carefully abiding by Rule #6 regarding an unclear posting by the OP: - and a proper handling by the moderator (requesting clarifying information, which could have been a simple, "Yes, I'm referring to homemade family movies").
No this was pretty horrible. For that you use the report post button, which in this case wouldn't have been necessary anyway. It is not one member's job to question another member's motives. The only thing you have achieved here is scaring away a new member.

I, personally, can't find anything suspicious in the term "personal back-up DVD". I just assume its a DVD with personal content (hence the reason for wanting to protect it) or a mixed up translation from a non-native English speaker. In any case, I don't think anyone who has downloaded a movie and burned it on a DVD is going to bother about protecting the DVD when he lends it out to a friend.

Since rule 6 doesn't explicitly demand that a member discloses the content of the material he is working on, there is no reason why you as non-moderator must constantly ask for it. So please stop doing it. You are not making the forum a better place this way.

Last edited by GodofaGap; 28th September 2010 at 09:26.
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