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Old 20th September 2014, 21:00   #1  |  Link
HWK
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BD-Rebuilder - HEVC

I have decided to dedicate this thread to HEVC and BD-RB discussion, instead of using bug reports thread.

I recently finished testing 4K animation source and posting result here.

Common between x264 and x265

--crf 20 --input-res 4096x2160 --fps 24000/1001 --input-csp i420

X264
--output "F:\ Sintel 2010 4K.264"
Bitrate average 20694.40 kb/s
PSNR Mean Y 48.611 | U 54.778| V 54.238
PSNR Average 49.564
Final File Size 2.13 GB

X265
--output "F:\ Sintel 2010 4K.hevc"
Bitrate average 16249.31 kb/s
PSNR Mean Y 47.644 | U 54.269 | V 53.687
PSNR Average 49.288
Final File Size 1.67 GB

*Source is freely available for download to public under creative commons license, do google search if you need it.
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Last edited by HWK; 20th September 2014 at 21:07.
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Old 21st September 2014, 00:03   #2  |  Link
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here are some comparisons
Attached Images
File Type: pdf comparison.pdf (95.3 KB, 310 views)
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Old 21st September 2014, 01:05   #3  |  Link
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I am gone be doing tear of steel next in 4K and post result, my aim is to see how psnr change with different source.
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Old 21st September 2014, 08:54   #4  |  Link
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What does this have to do with BD-RB? This looks like a simple x265 vs x264 match. A large number of GUIs will or already do have x264 and x265 support. It doesn't make sense to create new threads for every GUI as the underlying encoders and results will be the same for all them. This rather belongs into the HEVC sub-forum.

Aside from that: CRF scales of x264 and x265 are not identical, so be careful. Since you provided both bitrate and PSNR this might have at least some value, though. Then again different psy defaults might skew the PSNR results.

Last edited by sneaker_ger; 21st September 2014 at 08:59.
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Old 21st September 2014, 16:14   #5  |  Link
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I created this thread in hope of taking off hevc discussion posts found in bd-rb bugs report thread.

Only reason you see comparison is bd-rb uses x264 to compress and some of us want to do test and see how efficient x265 is over x264.
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Old 21st September 2014, 16:18   #6  |  Link
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BD-RB will support x265 backups in the next release, so this can be useful so I can adjust default settings. What? Are we now limiting what people can say specific to their own method of backup? An extra thread isn't going to hurt anything.
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Old 21st September 2014, 20:31   #7  |  Link
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An extra thread isn't going to hurt anything.
It is. A lot of people are looking for reviews of the x265 development progress but only few people will look into the BD-Rebuilder sub-forum. Outside people will miss out on the infos collected here and you guys will get less feedback and suggestions concerning your test setups. It's lose-lose.
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Old 21st September 2014, 21:20   #8  |  Link
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Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
It is. A lot of people are looking for reviews of the x265 development progress but only few people will look into the BD-Rebuilder sub-forum. Outside people will miss out on the infos collected here and you guys will get less feedback and suggestions concerning your test setups. It's lose-lose.
Ok, let me try to explain the purpose of this thread in case there is any doubt about it. I created this only for one purpose to remove post which is related to hevc and are posted in BD-RB bug report thread.

I never thought from feedback perspective, however I have included tags to help search engine.
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Old 21st September 2014, 22:04   #9  |  Link
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PSNR (Tears of Steel 2012 UHD 4K)

Common between x264 and x265

--crf 20 --input-res 4096x2160 --fps 24000/1001 --input-csp i420

X264
--output "F:\ Tears of Steel 2012 UHD 4K.264
Bitrate average 36121.39 kb/s
PSNR Mean Y 44.808 | U 49.709| V 49.770
PSNR Average 45.791
Final File Size 3.08 GB

X265
--output "F:\ Tears of Steel 2012 UHD 4K.hevc"
Bitrate average 17710.16 kb/s
PSNR Mean Y 44.012 | U 49.213 | V 49.277
PSNR Average 45.321
Final File Size 1.51 GB

One thing I noticed bitrate was almost double for x264 to come close. Normally it is up to 30 % of x265.
I am gone upload the source for this one to try out.
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Old 21st September 2014, 22:29   #10  |  Link
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It is. A lot of people are looking for reviews of the x265 development progress but only few people will look into the BD-Rebuilder sub-forum. Outside people will miss out on the infos collected here and you guys will get less feedback and suggestions concerning your test setups. It's lose-lose.
I disagree. So in your mind, once you made a post about any subject -- nobody can post anything similar anywhere else? When did DOOM9 become that dictatorial?
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Old 21st September 2014, 22:53   #11  |  Link
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I disagree. So in your mind, once you made a post about any subject -- nobody can post anything similar anywhere else?
No, I didn't say you can't make a new post. I'm saying you should do it in the correct sub-forum. There's a reason doom9 is divided into a bunch of them. Since this thread offers nothing specific to BD-RB it is in the wrong sub-forum.

But, well, I think I made my point. Last post from me on the sub-forum discussion.
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Old 21st September 2014, 23:12   #12  |  Link
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Black borders -- if any -- should be cropped for the PSNR tests because they bias (mask) the result.
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Old 24th September 2014, 15:47   #13  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
BD-RB will support x265 backups in the next release, so this can be useful so I can adjust default settings. What? Are we now limiting what people can say specific to their own method of backup? An extra thread isn't going to hurt anything.
hello jdobbs

when estimates will be available the next version of bdrebuilder, to make the backup fullbd HVEC?
thanks
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Old 24th September 2014, 17:16   #14  |  Link
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hello jdobbs

when estimates will be available the next version of bdrebuilder, to make the backup fullbd HVEC?
thanks
I meant movie-only backup to MKV in that post. While full HEVC backups may be coming, since they can't be played by most players, I'm not sure when I might do that. If I did, it would likely be for archival purposes rather than playback.

[Edit] Hmmm... MPC-HC seems to recognize a movie-only BD that has HEVC and AAC in it. I'll do some testing on full backups, although it appears it only support playlist playback rather than menus, etc. Does anyone know exactly what its capabilities are? I'd really be interested in seeing how a full backup in HEVC might look on a single layer DVD.
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Old 24th September 2014, 17:27   #15  |  Link
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I meant movie-only backup to MKV in that post. While full HEVC backups may be coming, since they can't be played by most players, I'm not sure when I might do that. If I did, it would likely be for archival purposes rather than playback.
powerdvd 14 and tolalmedia6 playback perfectly h265, would be perfect, able to choose between a fullbluray encode in h264(avc) or h265(hvec) in the menu setup default option of bdrebuilder.
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Old 24th September 2014, 17:37   #16  |  Link
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powerdvd 14 and tolalmedia6 playback perfectly h265, would be perfect, able to choose between a fullbluray encode in h264(avc) or h265(hvec) in the menu setup default option of bdrebuilder.
Do you know of any guidelines as to what the limitations are that should be used? I'm wondering about b-frame limitations, GOP sizes, etc... I guess a start would be to use the same rules as AVC.
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Old 25th September 2014, 20:47   #17  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobbs View Post
I meant movie-only backup to MKV in that post. While full HEVC backups may be coming, since they can't be played by most players, I'm not sure when I might do that. If I did, it would likely be for archival purposes rather than playback.

[Edit] Hmmm... MPC-HC seems to recognize a movie-only BD that has HEVC and AAC in it. I'll do some testing on full backups, although it appears it only support playlist playback rather than menus, etc. Does anyone know exactly what its capabilities are? I'd really be interested in seeing how a full backup in HEVC might look on a single layer DVD.
Jdobbs, Powerdvd does not play if output is blu-ray format with hevc encoded footage. However playing individual m2ts work fine, highest preset which works well is preset slow anything else result in problem with decoder, example b frame increase by 4 more with preset slower in comparison to preset slow.

DTS-HD and subtitle decoding works fine.

Just for reference preset slower take 3X longer over preset slow.

On my system I am getting 0.70fps on preset slower.
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Old 25th September 2014, 20:59   #18  |  Link
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Jdobbs, Powerdvd does not play if output is blu-ray format with hevc encoded footage. However playing individual m2ts work fine, highest preset which works well is preset slow anything else result in problem with decoder, example b frame increase by 4 more with preset slower in comparison to preset slow.

DTS-HD and subtitle decoding works fine.

Just for reference preset slower take 3X longer over preset slow.

On my system I am getting 0.70fps on preset slower.
So you're really not getting anything you wouldn't get with a combination of MKV and MPC-HC. That's disappointing. I was hoping for full playback capabilities.

Thanks for testing it.
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Old 21st September 2014, 16:52   #19  |  Link
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HWK, jdobbs
any testing you need done let me know, I have some idle cpu time.
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Old 21st September 2014, 17:08   #20  |  Link
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HWK, jdobbs
any testing you need done let me know, I have some idle cpu time.
Actually I was thinking so far I am the only one who has done 4K sources, beside me if someone else do it might help establish baseline.I recently got tear of steel and I think it would be good candidate since it is mix of animation and footage short on camera.

Here is my to do list

1. Do grainy video such as saving private ryan
2. Perform test on black and white video
3. Conduct two pass test on both encoders with challenge footage

Jdobbs, is there something we can do to help you or need help with?
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