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12th March 2023, 04:53 | #121 | Link | |
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But considering this is Fedora / Redhat, the company which declare AAC-LC as patent free ( Thank God ). This comes a little bit of a surprise. Especially after this has been the norm for years before declaring it unsafe. But they are now under IBM, I guess legal have a different interpretation. Anyway we only have wait a few more years before AVC patents expires. We will have a truly parent free half decent video codec.
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12th March 2023, 05:00 | #122 | Link | ||
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For a good reason. The web is supposed to be universally accessible and universally implementable, which means it avoids patent-encumbered formats (more so patent-encumbered formats with multiple patent pools). Eventually, this boils down to whether you consider access to the web a fundamental human right. I do. Last edited by kurkosdr; 12th March 2023 at 05:40. |
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12th March 2023, 05:21 | #123 | Link | |
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And VVEnc is quite good actually albeit slow but not much slower than e.g. libaom. |
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12th March 2023, 07:59 | #124 | Link | ||
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Personally I don't get the Linux Desktop people. They are a clear minority but defend and make demands for their fragmented platform like some Otaku does for his waifu. |
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12th March 2023, 08:53 | #126 | Link | |
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Oh, and your 160x120 Theora video thing, besides being stupid (downscaling loses a ton of information which can be important for things like tutorials) is something that's not even guaranteed to be there. Theora mandated as a minimum format with the same resolution as the other available formats would be a good idea because at least it makes for an implementable HTML5 spec. But anyway, you don't have to care about my opinion. Have you ever wondered why W3C didn't propose a format for the HTML5 video tag? It's because they have a principle to not include patented-encumbered technology in W3C standards, which means their views are closer to mine than yours. But since they couldn't agree on a royalty-free standard, they left it unspecified (because that totally makes sense, I guess). Also, people here forget a good 5% of Windows users run versions older than Windows 8, which means they aren't guaranteed to have HEVC OS codecs and probably run old PCs with old GPUs without hardware HEVC decoding either. But I know, those are poor people. Who cares if they can access the web? Last edited by kurkosdr; 12th March 2023 at 09:13. |
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12th March 2023, 15:30 | #128 | Link | |||
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I mean, nowadays you would probably get H.265 HEVC for HDR UHD contents and H.264 AVC for SDR FULL HD 8bit and lower and I think that's going to stay for a very very very long time. I mean, if you watch a TV Series on streaming platform x and you go there with, let's say, Windows XP and a backported version of Chromium (currently Chromium 108 is the latest that has been backported), it will almost definitely serve you the H.264 version at all resolutions and bitrate combinations, ranging from FULL HD to HD to SD and possibly lower streams with AAC audio which is perfectly decodable. Speaking of which, even via software only decoding, H.264 nowadays is pretty well handled, so I don't really think it's gonna be a problem anytime soon as H.264 is here to stay. Ironically AV1 would be much harder to decode for an x86 SSE4.1 max operating system, so much so that even Google itself offers VP9 + Opus rather than AV1 to the Windows XP users even for UHD contents. This is me on Windows XP Professional x86 with the Extended Microsoft Support which ended on July 2019 and Chromium 108: - YouTube - VP9 + Opus - BBC - H.264 + AAC Quote:
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12th March 2023, 17:46 | #129 | Link | |
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Last edited by kurkosdr; 12th March 2023 at 20:47. |
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13th March 2023, 01:39 | #130 | Link | |||
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The fundamental challenge is that digital media is really complex, with heavy compute and real-time requirements. That's very different that the original goals of the web, which focused on publishing content in a way that different clients could render in ways that maximally preserve the information being presented. Stuff that requires constant heavy compute with real-time requirements was way out of scope. Media codecs are also really complex beasts, with an enormous number of tools that need to be combined in very complex ways to provide enough improvement to merit the high costs of adopting a new format. So far, the MPEG/ISO process has, despite its many drawbacks, created codecs sufficiently superior to alternatives that they become dominant despite those limitations. This is because Moore's Law and hand-tuned assembly and hardware DRM and vsync and lots of stuff that other web stuff doesn't require become essential. H.263 has been patent free for decades. It was good enough for Flash and YouTube to become juggernauts. But the advancements around video codecs are too important and complex for content publishers to be happy to stick with a "good enough" format like we have with JPEG and PNG for so long. This is how it has always been, and I don't see a clear alternative that would be long-term sustainable. Maybe if AV2 winds up being just better than VVC, sure. But we're still not going to see anyone publishing premium HDR content to web browsers without DRM, because that would cannibalize other revenue streams way more than the Linux market could add. And if somehow movie studios were forced to release their high value content in ways they can't preserve a good share of that value, we'll just have less and cheaper content made. We have Peak TV because streaming enabled new business models that made it possible to monetize depth of engagement; before the only way to increase revenue was to increase number of viewers of ads, however apathetic they are. Anyone who prefers to make content under different business models is welcome to do so, and plenty do. Anyone who only wants to watch content produced via business models or distributed with technology they approach of is welcome to do so. None of us have a right to make content creators make the content we want the way we want it under terms that we define. |
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13th March 2023, 01:43 | #131 | Link | ||
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13th March 2023, 05:17 | #132 | Link | |
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Oh ffs, what do VP8 and Theora have to do with v-sync? And when did they have any kind of issues with assembly hand-tuning (which all software decoders and encoders have)? If you are gonna post such long posts, at least try to make sense.
Also, VP8 was certainly good enough, and Theora was good enough as a fallback, and W3C could have chosen either as a mandatory format for the video tag to define an implementable HTML5 spec (which is kind of an important attribute for a spec, if you haven't noticed), but some "important" members with lots of patents in the patent pools (Apple and Microsoft) blocked that. Design-by-committee at its worst. And no, the primary purpose of W3C is not to please content creators or care about hardware DRM, the primary purpose of W3C is to define implementable standards for the web, in case you also failed to notice. Quote:
Last edited by kurkosdr; 13th March 2023 at 06:12. |
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13th March 2023, 05:35 | #133 | Link |
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According to this line of thinking, IE with its incompatible JavaScript and ActiveX wasn't breaking compatibility with other web browsers, just with something that someone could publish. But according to this line of thinking, what's the point of even having web standards?
Last edited by kurkosdr; 13th March 2023 at 06:17. |
13th March 2023, 05:54 | #134 | Link |
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No, and certainly not for decades.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have...expired_yet%3F Last edited by kurkosdr; 13th March 2023 at 06:09. |
13th March 2023, 07:19 | #135 | Link | |
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https://github.com/fraunhoferhhi/vve...er-Performance There seems to be no mischief going on with x265 settings as far as I can tell from the x265 command lines. If you look at "VVenC: Runtime vs PSNR BD-rate" x265 placebo has 30% higher BD-rate than HM-16.24. They specify the x265 command line to be "--preset {0,1,2,3,…,9} --tune psnr --crf {17,22,27,32} --keyint 1s --min-keyint 1s --profile main10 --output-depth 10", so thats PSNR tune with CRF bitrate control. Now either HM got really good in the last couple years or x265 aged like milk or.. well I don't know. 'placebo' preset should be closer to HM really. VTM having some SIMD optimizations now makes it less of a pushover performance wise but it still lacks threading. Adding some conservative mode decision + threading and you should end up where VVenC 'slow' is. But I am really surprised by how bad x265 is compared against HM-16.24. And the x265 guys (those that are still left anyway) now want to make a competitive VVC encoder? Well good luck then. |
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13th March 2023, 07:26 | #136 | Link | |
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Hoping for something remotely usable that is truly patent free in the year 2023, where almost everything promising regarding video has been at least patented twice, appears to be some sort of pipe dream to me. |
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15th March 2023, 23:59 | #137 | Link | ||
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HM can absolutely be better at delivering better mean PSNR with fixed-QP, fixed GOP encoding without VBV. But that's not a thing anyone actually watches. Quote:
I expect that VVCEnC already beats the reference encoder using real-world scenarios and performance requirements. And x266 certainly would need to as well for a meaningful 1.0 release. |
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16th March 2023, 00:05 | #138 | Link | |
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Although MPAI seem to be pivoting focus to the newer end-to-end ML MPAI-EEV codec: https://mpai.community/standards/mpa...bout-mpai-eev/ |
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17th March 2023, 17:50 | #139 | Link | |
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18th March 2023, 09:35 | #140 | Link | |
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