Information on 3D Blu Ray: general and detailed info

Jeremy Duncan · 29th September 2009, 03:05

• I'm posting this here so whoever wants to make a plugin for 3D or somebody needs this info on doom9 I decided to post it here for them.

Dolby 3d
Dolby Laboratories is a provider of a high resolution 3D solution that includes delivery and tool sets for the cinema. The Dolby 3D approach in the home is based on the following:
1.
A logical tiered path from an infrastructure-friendly methodology to full resolution 3D
2.
High resolution 3D that has compatibility with existing product base of players and displays
3.
Forward looking interoperability with LCD, PDP and DLP displays, BD, set-top boxes and media players
4.
Support for multiple distribution methods that include Blu-ray, Broadcast, Internet downloads, VOD and streaming
5.
Use of advanced video codecs (H.264) to minimize bitrates
Dolby claims its 3D approach is flexible and does not require the introduction of new consumer electronics equipment, workflows or distribution channels

Footnotes & Additional Questions:
1 Dolby’s approach can use any one of the frame compatible systems
2 Broadcast excluded, others may require updated firmware.
Considerations/Comments:
The Dolby approach is not stereo display dependent and is compatible to existing 3D display formats.

Panasonic

Panasonic is developing a full-HD(High Definition: 1920x1080) per eye solution for BD (Blu-ray Disc) based on MPEG-4 AVC MVC (Multi View Coding). Panasonic claims that this solution provides the best possible quality for home Stereoscopic viewing
This quality is achieved without requiring a 100 percent increase of bit-rate for 3D video compared to 2D video. Due to the utilization of the MVC video codec, the increase would be roughly 50 percent and is varied depending on the 3D content, therefore this allows that more than 2hrs of 3D movies can be recorded onto one 50GB disc.
This solution is fully backwards compatible and conventional 2D Blu-ray players will be able to play content and provide a full-HD 2D image.

Footnotes & Additional Questions:
* Existing stereoscopic displays would include ‘3D Ready’ 120Hz plasma or DLP, and polarized LCD displays. Appropriate active or passive glasses are required. It depends on capability of output video format conversion functionality on the 3D-BD player.
** New stereoscopic would include as-yet unavailable commercially displays. Appropriate active or passive glasses would be required.
*** Other might include head-mounted displays.

Q: Among various formats of 3D technology, with or without viewing glasses, in half HD, full HD, frame sequential or line by line, which one has Panasonic selected, and why?
A: Panasonic has selected full HD video in frame sequential format. This format is used when showing Hollywood 3D movies in theaters, and has been selected to ensure that the full HD video images for the left and right eyes are displayed on the PDP screen frame by frame, ensuring the same quality as movie theaters at people’s own homes.

"The new system supplies 60 fields per second 1920 x 1080 interlace images for both right and left eyes. Panasonic stored the image data into a 50-Gbyte Blu-ray disc. The system employs the MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 image compression format."
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...080925/158469/

Sensio

SENSIO3D is a member of the spatial compression family of stereoscopic codecs. It is based on frames pre-processing (encoding) and a split-screen checkerboard spatial layout coupled with advanced interpolation algorithms at the decoding stage. Encapsulated inside the main video stream already handled by video equipments, a SENSIO3D stream can be distributed, for 3D playback, using the currently deployed 2D infrastructure. Using a scheme similar in concept to DTS-HD Master Audio, SENSIO3D can be extended to support Full Frame L/R eyes data. The main video stream contains a spatially compressed SENSIO3D stream (Core) and a second synchronized stream contains additional information that provides configurable quality increments. At full capacity, the actual complete data for both eyes is available. On systems which do not provide decoding for this additional data, a SENSIO3D frame is available and can be decoded using current algorithms and distributed using the current infrastructure. Full backwards compatibility is therefore provided.

(*) NOTE: 3D format is not compatible with 2D presentation (to provide 2D, separate graphics/subtitles/video/audio need to be provided)

(**) NOTE: supports video/audio only and does not support menu/subtitles in their existing format

Dolby 3d chart

Panasonic 3d chart

Sensio 3d chart

Sensio media showing a demo
http://electronicdesign.com/shows/ce...20-sensio.html
download link
http://www.mediafire.com/?zfycnwdvytm

Dolby 3d showing a demo
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...y-3d-demo.html

Panasonic 3d showing a demo
http://www.panasonic.com/3D/
download link
http://www.mediafire.com/?yzgmdgwlfwq

panasonic q&a pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/?w0gigjzzf34

pdf with original charts and info
http://www.mediafire.com/?itnjdmjgmwj
http://www.dvdinformation.com/pdfs/D...aper_FINAL.pdf

"The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has announced plans to incorporate 3D into the Blu-ray Disc format.

The BDA said it is examining a number of criteria and, at a minimum, the specification will require delivery of 1080p resolution to each eye and backward compatibility for both discs and players. The association further explained that the 3D discs will also include a 2D version of the film that can be viewed on existing 2D players and that 3D players will allow consumers to playback their existing libraries of 2D content."
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6687264.html

The charts show each company offers full resolution 3D Blu Ray.
But which company offers all the requirements? Read the charts to find out.

Jeremy Duncan · 29th September 2009, 03:07

Section a

Hold time is different than refresh rates.
Refresh rate and hold time are different than lcd response time

For a certain refresh rate there is a hold time associated with it.
For higher refresh rates than 60Hz, the lcd response time must be made faster.

These times below are per frame:
60hz hold time is 16.67ms
120hz hold time is 16.67/2 = 8.335ms
240hz hold time is 16.67/4 = 4.1675ms
480hz hold time is 16.67/8 = 2.08375ms

__________________________________________

Section b
In the article "31.2: Crosstalk-Free 3D Display with Time-Sequential OCB LCD".

a.) "The OCB mode is well-known for its fast response. We have
newly developed LC material to improve the response time of
OCB (Fig.3), τr+τd=3ms. The rise time from all gray level to
black is very fast, < 0.26ms (Fig.4). This means display image
can be resetted immediately and it make no influence to next
image. In this case very small 3D crosstalk is achieved."

b.) "The demand for 3D active shutter glasses is the same as that for
the LCD panel, that is, fast response of LC. The slow LC response
shall cause the 3D-crosstalk and shortage of luminance. So we
also applied OCB to active-shutter glasses."

c.) "We have realized high quality 3D display system using timesequential OCB LCD. This is 3D crosstalk-free, no pseudoscopy, no 3D moiré in wide viewing angle. It was achieved by fast response OCB panel, fast response OCB active shutter glasses"

Question: In a.) what is 3ms?
Answer.) In a.) they say the monitor that is 3ms, and in b.) the shutter glasses.

They then say in c.) the thing they had success with was the equipment in a.) and b.).

Now for my third point.
In the second article, the one I used in my second point above. They say for time sequential (which is the same as frame sequential) 3d, that 120Hz is too slow.

Then they say that the 3ms of their ocb monitor is working fine, but it still has crosstalk.
Page 6 in the second article says that they still have crosstalk at 3ms (this is when using a equivalent system to the one panasonic is marketing for blu ray).

http://www42.tok2.com/home/ksatsch/p...aySystems).pdf

•What does this mean?
Each eye must have a hold time faster than 8.33ms to avoid crosstalk and luminance problems.
That would mean the 4.1675ms hold time is the next fastest hold time and it has no pulldown problems either.

__________________________________________

Section c

The Panasonic promo video said that their 3d blu ray system was the same as the one used in theaters.
That is to say theirs is the same as Digital 3d Cinema.
And I have a pdf explaining Digital 3d Cinema: link

__________________________________________

Section d

DLP technology can project 3-D images with a single projector by presenting the stereoscopic left/right image pairs sequentially.
This means that a left image is presented, and then a right image is presented, and never will both a left and a right image appear on the screen at the same time.
However, presenting left/right images to the audience at a 48 fps rate is less than ideal as the sequential nature of the images are perceivable and distracting.

To overcome this, sequential projection requires that the stereoscopic pair of images are "flashed" on screen.
This involves, within the time frame of 1/24th of second, the repetition of a left/right sequence three times before presenting the next left/right sequence.
This process is called "triple flash."

With triple flash, the rate in which images are presented to the audience is a speedy 3 x 48 fps, or 144 fps.
The triple flash rate is a property of the projector, and is the flash rate employed with all add-on technologies for presenting 3-D images in the theatre.

http://mkpe.com/publications/d-cinem...ice_in_3-D.php

__________________________________________

Section e

•How to calculate HDMI (1920x1200p60) Bandwidth

HSYNC: 1920+280 (horizontal blanking pixel No.)
VSYNC: 1200+50 (vertical blanking line No.)
total pixel per frame = 2200x1250 = 2.75 Mpx/frame
Bit rate = 2.75 Mpx/frame x 24 (= 3x8) bit/px x 60 frame/s = 3.96 Gbit/s
TMDS: 8 bit -> 10 bit
TMDS bit rate = 3.96 Gbit/s x 10/8 = 4.95 Gbit/s

•How to calculate HDMI (1080p60) Bandwidth

HSYNC: 1920+280 (horizontal blanking pixel No.)
VSYNC: 1080+45 (vertical blanking line No.)
total pixel per frame = 2200x1125 = 2.47 Mpx/frame
Bit rate = 2.75 Mpx/frame x 24 (= 3x8) bit/px x 60 frame/s = 3.56 Gbit/s
TMDS: 8 bit -> 10 bit
TMDS bit rate = 3.96 Gbit/s x 10/8 = 4.455 Gbit/s

•maximum TMDS clock rate of hdmi 1.4 = 340MHz

•HDMI Maximum TMDS bandwidth (Gbit/s) 10.2

•3D Over HDMI
The 1.4 version of the specification will define common 3D formats and resolutions for HDMI-enabled devices. The specification will standardize the input/output portion of the home 3D system and will specify up to dual-stream 1080p resolution.

• Meaning that the hdmi 1.4 can stream 48p 2d blu ray video, or 24p 3d video

_____________________________________________________

_____________________________________________________

Section f

Code:

24p........................ = 23.976024 FPS.. = 41.7083333 Milliseconds Time between frames
NTSC's....................... 29.97003......... = 33.3666666 Milliseconds Time between frames
48p........................ = 47.952048 FPS.. = 20.8541666 Milliseconds Time between frames
NTSC's....................... 59.9400599 FPS..... = 16.6833333 Milliseconds Time between frames

Code:

1000 / 23.976024 = 41.7083333
1000 / 29.97003    = 33.3666666
1000 / 47.952048 = 20.8541666
1000 / 59.9400599    = 16.6833333

There's 1000 milliseconds in a second.
MS / FPS = MS: 1000 ms / FPS = Time between frames

"The REAL D system uses triple flash to provide the best motion rendition possible. Use of triple flash puts the refresh rate above the normal flicker fusion threshold for humans, providing smoother motion. The triple flash approach also makes the left and right eye images to appear closer in time, giving significantly less motion induced parallax errors and therefore more comfortable motion rendition."

http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/real-d.pdf

Flicker fusion threshold

"If the frame rate falls below the flicker fusion threshold for the given viewing conditions, flicker will be apparent to the observer, and movements of objects on the film will appear jerky. For the purposes of presenting moving images, the human flicker fusion threshold is usually taken as 16 hertz (Hz)."
LINK

MS / HZ = MS: 1000 / 16 = 62.5

• What does this mean?

Code:

1000ms / fps = ms > 1000ms / 16hz =  62.5ms = fps:ms faster than 62.5ms: No flicker
1000ms / fps = ms < 1000ms / 16hz =  62.5ms = fps:ms slower than 62.5ms: flicker

• In Actual practice though, for 3D, the Hz to use is the one Real D uses: "triple flash" (6.94444444ms), as this is standard in digital cinema = 72Hz 2D per eye (13.8888889ms).

Code:

1000ms / fps = ms > or = 1000ms / 72hz
1000ms / fps = ms > or = 1000ms / 72hz =  13.8888889ms = fps:ms faster than or equal too 13.8888889ms: if equal too it's decent quality 3D(but can be better).

On a 240Hz monitor, 60p video using 2:2 pulldown making it 120p video
1 000ms / 119.88012fps = 8.34166666ms
8.34166666ms is faster than 13.8888889ms so there should be no flicker when using a 240hz monitor and 60p tv in stereoscopic 3D.

__________________________________________

Section g: Various monitor refresh rates and video source fps list

3:2 pulldown

Code:

a = 4 frames = (120th of a second x 20)

= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) 
= 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source

= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) 
= 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source

= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) 
= 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source

= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) 
= 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source

b: 24p 3D = (a x 6) 
= 2p frames (Left eye = (120th of a second x 60)) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x 60)) 
= 1Hz = 1 second

__________________

240Hz monitor

Code:

a: 24p 3D Movie frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) 
= 1 frame from 23.976 fps video source

b: 30p 3D tv frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) 
= 1 frame from 29.97 fps video source

c: 60p 3D tv frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) 
= 1 frame from 59.94 fps video source

d: 3D: 24p, 30p, 60p 
= 2p frames (Left eye = (240th of a second x 120)) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x 120)) 
= 1Hz = 1 second

__________________

480Hz monitor

Code:

a: 24p 3D Movie frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 10) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 10) )) 
= 1 frame from 23.976 fps video source

b: 30p 3D tv frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 8) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 8) )) 
= 1 frame from 29.97 fps video source

c: 48p 3D tv frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) 
= 1 frame from 47.952 fps video source

d: 60p 3D tv frame 
= 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) 
= 1 frame from 59.94 fps video source

e: 3D: 24p, 30p, 48p, 60p 
= 2p frames (Left eye = (480th of a second x 240)) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x 240)) 
= 1Hz = 1 second

__________________________________________

Section h

Code:

144hz displays one frame every................. 6.94444444ms
24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames
6:6pulldown
...............................................41.7083333 / 6.94444444 =  6.00600


______________________



120hz displays one frame every................. 8.33333333ms
24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames
5:5 pulldown
...............................................41.7083333 / 8.33333333 = 5.00500


120hz displays one frame every................. 8.33333333ms
NTSC's 29.97 video.......................... = 33.3666666Ms Time between frames
4:4 pulldown
...............................................33.3666666 / 8.33333333 = 4.00399999


120hz displays one frame every................. 8.33333333ms
NTSC's 59.95 video.......................... = 16.6833333Ms Time between frames
2:2 pulldown
...............................................16.6833333 / 8.33333333 = 2.00200


______________________


240hz displays one frame every................. 4.16666667ms
24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames
10:10 pulldown
...............................................41.7083333 / 4.16666667 = 10.01


240hz displays one frame every................. 4.16666667ms
NTSC's 29.97 video.......................... = 33.3666666Ms Time between frames
8:8 pulldown
...............................................33.3666666 / 4.16666667 = 8.00799998


240hz displays one frame every................. 4.16666667ms
NTSC's 59.95 video.......................... = 16.6833333Ms Time between frames
4:4 pulldown
...............................................16.6833333 / 4.16666667 = 4.00399999


______________________


480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms
24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames
20:20 pulldown
...............................................41.7083333 / 2.08333333 = 20.02


480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms
NTSC's 29.97 video.......................... = 33.3666666Ms Time between frames
16:16 pulldown
...............................................33.3666666 / 2.08333333 = 16.01600


480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms
48p video................................... = 20.8541666Ms Time between frames
10:10 pulldown
...............................................20.8541666 / 2.08333333 = 10.01


480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms
NTSC's 59.94 video.......................... = 16.6833333Ms Time between frames
8:8 pulldown
...............................................16.6833333 / 2.08333333 = 8.00800

"The refresh rate of the shutter glasses has to be the same as the refresh rate of the display since each shutter has to either open or close every time the 3D display refreshes." - Richard Paul

Examples

(1000ms/59.94fps=16.68335Ms) = 1Hz = 1 second

59.94*2=119.88fps
(1000ms/119.88fps=8.34167501ms) = 1Hz = 1 second

__________________________________________

Section i

I have made some stereoscopic test files for use with shutter glasses.
I forget which eye each frame belongs too: in each folder is two video files, one for each eye when using shutter glasses.
There are different fps video files: 24p, 30p, 48p, 60p. Each video files has no more frames than their name implies, so they are all one second long.
They are at 1080p resolution, 2.35 aspect ratio, encoded in mp4.
Since I forget which frame belongs to which eye when you put them to work with the shutter glasses it might be wrong, but then just switch the frames the eyes see and it should be ok.

With these test files you can see if there is crosstalk and if pulldown helps the 3d be more comfortable.

link
backup link

If I had the test equipment to do the test myself I would, but I don't so I made these test files and posted them here so people who have the field-sequential encoder equipment can encode it and test it, hopefully posting their results here.
You will need to loop the video since the video files are only 1 second long.

I have made a second set of test files: mpeg-2 this time.
The frame rates of the video: 23.976, 29.97, 50 from 48 frames, 59.94
link
backup link

Jeremy Duncan · 29th September 2009, 03:07

Section j

Ok, I read the good about this fancy "3D Blu Ray", but whats the catch?
What's the dirt on this fancy new tech that nobodies telling us?

"occlusion"

What is occlusion? I will quote a article on it:

"In IMAX, in which people are sitting close to a giant screen, the periphery of the screen is more difficult to discern and the rectangle becomes relatively unimportant.

The idea behind IMAX is to immerse you in the experience. So people who shoot IMAX movies have to think about a different kind of composition. I’m concerned with the stereoscopic cinema so my remarks are predicated on that interest.

In the stereoscopic cinema, the rectangular boundaries are important because of the well-known effect of the conflict of stereoscopic cue of parallax and the extra-stereoscopic cue called interposition. If off-screen (negative) parallax values are occluded by the screen edges–and this is especially true for the vertical edges of the screen–there will be a conflict of cues, which some people (possibly most people) interpret as a region of confusion.

Some people may say that the image looks like it’s pulled back into the plane of the screen; some will report that the image looks odd. In any event, it’s something that has to be dealt with in the conventional stereoscopic cinema and doesn’t need to be dealt with in IMAX because the screen is so large that it’s hard to see the edges of the surround.

(Another thought to put into the mix that might further confusion rather than understanding is that we are in a time of transition in which people are learning how to look at stereo movies and maybe with the passage of time the screen edge conflict will come to be accepted.)"

link

The other annoying thing is the glasses.

So now you know the stuff they don't tell you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Please explain to me what exactly are; "motion induced parallax errors."

Below is what is Motion Parallax

"If the man above fixates on the single tree in the middle and starts walking to the right, the four trees in the back will appear to move to the right while the two trees in the front will appear to move to the left. This phenomenon is called motion parallax and is one of the cues to depth."

http://www.yorku.ca/eye/Motion%20Parallax.htm

If you have a cup that might be dirty you tilt it to look inside.
Same as if a pop can rim may be dirty, you tilt it and look at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeF-kCr_vyo

A error is when the brain tells the eyes it can't work out what's happening, so the eyes work harder and after a while the eyes tire then the brain works the problem out itself, then it too gets tired of piecing together the Motion Parallax and the viewer feels sick.

I made three posts because it wouldn't all fit into 2 posts.

Guest · 29th September 2009, 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Duncan

I made three posts because it wouldn't all fit into 2 posts.

Why couldn't you just post the links to the material?

Jeremy Duncan · 29th September 2009, 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by neuron2

Why couldn't you just post the links to the material?

Hmm, not sure what you mean, but it's all there and it only cost 3 posts.

setarip_old · 29th September 2009, 07:31

@Jeremy Duncan

Hi!

Quote:

I'm posting this here so whoever wants to make a plugin for 3D or somebody needs this info on doom9 I decided to post it here for them.

You shouild have made this the VERY FIRST sentence in first of this series of posts, so members can immediately determine if they want to read through the quantities of copied and quoted data and information that you've presented ...

Jeremy Duncan · 30th September 2009, 01:36

I have made a second se of test files: mpeg-2, avi.
The mpeg-2 files are 23.976fps, and 29.97fps.
The avi files are 47.952fps, and 59.94fps.
link
I wasn't sure if the hw encoder that joins two streams into one field sequential stream needed mpeg-2 or not, so I created these in mpeg2 just in case.

setarip_old,

I didn't post this thread so I could get these test files encoded. I added these test files as a courtesy so those who can encode it cause they have the hw to do that have a file that they can encode and test with.

setarip_old · 30th September 2009, 04:03

@Jeremy Duncan

Please RE-read my post. I said nothing about encoding...

Jeremy Duncan · 30th September 2009, 05:32

setarip_old,

I see, ok I have done as you advised.

29th September 2009, 03:05	#1 \| Link
Jeremy Duncan Didée Fan Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 1,079	Information on 3D Blu Ray: general and detailed info • I'm posting this here so whoever wants to make a plugin for 3D or somebody needs this info on doom9 I decided to post it here for them. Dolby 3d Dolby Laboratories is a provider of a high resolution 3D solution that includes delivery and tool sets for the cinema. The Dolby 3D approach in the home is based on the following: 1. A logical tiered path from an infrastructure-friendly methodology to full resolution 3D 2. High resolution 3D that has compatibility with existing product base of players and displays 3. Forward looking interoperability with LCD, PDP and DLP displays, BD, set-top boxes and media players 4. Support for multiple distribution methods that include Blu-ray, Broadcast, Internet downloads, VOD and streaming 5. Use of advanced video codecs (H.264) to minimize bitrates Dolby claims its 3D approach is flexible and does not require the introduction of new consumer electronics equipment, workflows or distribution channels Footnotes & Additional Questions: 1 Dolby’s approach can use any one of the frame compatible systems 2 Broadcast excluded, others may require updated firmware. Considerations/Comments: The Dolby approach is not stereo display dependent and is compatible to existing 3D display formats. Panasonic Panasonic is developing a full-HD(High Definition: 1920x1080) per eye solution for BD (Blu-ray Disc) based on MPEG-4 AVC MVC (Multi View Coding). Panasonic claims that this solution provides the best possible quality for home Stereoscopic viewing This quality is achieved without requiring a 100 percent increase of bit-rate for 3D video compared to 2D video. Due to the utilization of the MVC video codec, the increase would be roughly 50 percent and is varied depending on the 3D content, therefore this allows that more than 2hrs of 3D movies can be recorded onto one 50GB disc. This solution is fully backwards compatible and conventional 2D Blu-ray players will be able to play content and provide a full-HD 2D image. Footnotes & Additional Questions: * Existing stereoscopic displays would include ‘3D Ready’ 120Hz plasma or DLP, and polarized LCD displays. Appropriate active or passive glasses are required. It depends on capability of output video format conversion functionality on the 3D-BD player. New stereoscopic would include as-yet unavailable commercially displays. Appropriate active or passive glasses would be required. * Other might include head-mounted displays. Q: Among various formats of 3D technology, with or without viewing glasses, in half HD, full HD, frame sequential or line by line, which one has Panasonic selected, and why? A: Panasonic has selected full HD video in frame sequential format. This format is used when showing Hollywood 3D movies in theaters, and has been selected to ensure that the full HD video images for the left and right eyes are displayed on the PDP screen frame by frame, ensuring the same quality as movie theaters at people’s own homes. "The new system supplies 60 fields per second 1920 x 1080 interlace images for both right and left eyes. Panasonic stored the image data into a 50-Gbyte Blu-ray disc. The system employs the MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 image compression format." http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...080925/158469/ Sensio SENSIO3D is a member of the spatial compression family of stereoscopic codecs. It is based on frames pre-processing (encoding) and a split-screen checkerboard spatial layout coupled with advanced interpolation algorithms at the decoding stage. Encapsulated inside the main video stream already handled by video equipments, a SENSIO3D stream can be distributed, for 3D playback, using the currently deployed 2D infrastructure. Using a scheme similar in concept to DTS-HD Master Audio, SENSIO3D can be extended to support Full Frame L/R eyes data. The main video stream contains a spatially compressed SENSIO3D stream (Core) and a second synchronized stream contains additional information that provides configurable quality increments. At full capacity, the actual complete data for both eyes is available. On systems which do not provide decoding for this additional data, a SENSIO3D frame is available and can be decoded using current algorithms and distributed using the current infrastructure. Full backwards compatibility is therefore provided. () NOTE: 3D format is not compatible with 2D presentation (to provide 2D, separate graphics/subtitles/video/audio need to be provided) () NOTE: supports video/audio only and does not support menu/subtitles in their existing format Dolby 3d chart* Panasonic 3d chart Sensio 3d chart Sensio media showing a demo http://electronicdesign.com/shows/ce...20-sensio.html download link http://www.mediafire.com/?zfycnwdvytm Dolby 3d showing a demo http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...y-3d-demo.html Panasonic 3d showing a demo http://www.panasonic.com/3D/ download link http://www.mediafire.com/?yzgmdgwlfwq panasonic q&a pdf http://www.mediafire.com/?w0gigjzzf34 pdf with original charts and info http://www.mediafire.com/?itnjdmjgmwj http://www.dvdinformation.com/pdfs/D...aper_FINAL.pdf "The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has announced plans to incorporate 3D into the Blu-ray Disc format. The BDA said it is examining a number of criteria and, at a minimum, the specification will require delivery of 1080p resolution to each eye and backward compatibility for both discs and players. The association further explained that the 3D discs will also include a 2D version of the film that can be viewed on existing 2D players and that 3D players will allow consumers to playback their existing libraries of 2D content." http://www.edn.com/article/CA6687264.html The charts show each company offers full resolution 3D Blu Ray. But which company offers all the requirements? Read the charts to find out. __________________ When I get tired during work with dvd stuff i think of River Tamm (Summer Glau's character). And the beauty that is Serenity. Last edited by Jeremy Duncan; 30th September 2009 at 05:31.

29th September 2009, 03:07	#2 \| Link
Jeremy Duncan Didée Fan Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 1,079	This post is the detailed information Section a Hold time is different than refresh rates. Refresh rate and hold time are different than lcd response time For a certain refresh rate there is a hold time associated with it. For higher refresh rates than 60Hz, the lcd response time must be made faster. These times below are per frame: 60hz hold time is 16.67ms 120hz hold time is 16.67/2 = 8.335ms 240hz hold time is 16.67/4 = 4.1675ms 480hz hold time is 16.67/8 = 2.08375ms __________________________________________ Section b In the article "31.2: Crosstalk-Free 3D Display with Time-Sequential OCB LCD". a.) "The OCB mode is well-known for its fast response. We have newly developed LC material to improve the response time of OCB (Fig.3), τr+τd=3ms. The rise time from all gray level to black is very fast, < 0.26ms (Fig.4). This means display image can be resetted immediately and it make no influence to next image. In this case very small 3D crosstalk is achieved." b.) "The demand for 3D active shutter glasses is the same as that for the LCD panel, that is, fast response of LC. The slow LC response shall cause the 3D-crosstalk and shortage of luminance. So we also applied OCB to active-shutter glasses." c.) "We have realized high quality 3D display system using timesequential OCB LCD. This is 3D crosstalk-free, no pseudoscopy, no 3D moiré in wide viewing angle. It was achieved by fast response OCB panel, fast response OCB active shutter glasses" Question: In a.) what is 3ms? Answer.) In a.) they say the monitor that is 3ms, and in b.) the shutter glasses. They then say in c.) the thing they had success with was the equipment in a.) and b.). Now for my third point. In the second article, the one I used in my second point above. They say for time sequential (which is the same as frame sequential) 3d, that 120Hz is too slow. Then they say that the 3ms of their ocb monitor is working fine, but it still has crosstalk. Page 6 in the second article says that they still have crosstalk at 3ms (this is when using a equivalent system to the one panasonic is marketing for blu ray). http://www42.tok2.com/home/ksatsch/p...aySystems).pdf •What does this mean? Each eye must have a hold time faster than 8.33ms to avoid crosstalk and luminance problems. That would mean the 4.1675ms hold time is the next fastest hold time and it has no pulldown problems either. __________________________________________ Section c The Panasonic promo video said that their 3d blu ray system was the same as the one used in theaters. That is to say theirs is the same as Digital 3d Cinema. And I have a pdf explaining Digital 3d Cinema: link __________________________________________ Section d DLP technology can project 3-D images with a single projector by presenting the stereoscopic left/right image pairs sequentially. This means that a left image is presented, and then a right image is presented, and never will both a left and a right image appear on the screen at the same time. However, presenting left/right images to the audience at a 48 fps rate is less than ideal as the sequential nature of the images are perceivable and distracting. To overcome this, sequential projection requires that the stereoscopic pair of images are "flashed" on screen. This involves, within the time frame of 1/24th of second, the repetition of a left/right sequence three times before presenting the next left/right sequence. This process is called "triple flash." With triple flash, the rate in which images are presented to the audience is a speedy 3 x 48 fps, or 144 fps. The triple flash rate is a property of the projector, and is the flash rate employed with all add-on technologies for presenting 3-D images in the theatre. http://mkpe.com/publications/d-cinem...ice_in_3-D.php __________________________________________ Section e •How to calculate HDMI (1920x1200p60) Bandwidth HSYNC: 1920+280 (horizontal blanking pixel No.) VSYNC: 1200+50 (vertical blanking line No.) total pixel per frame = 2200x1250 = 2.75 Mpx/frame Bit rate = 2.75 Mpx/frame x 24 (= 3x8) bit/px x 60 frame/s = 3.96 Gbit/s TMDS: 8 bit -> 10 bit TMDS bit rate = 3.96 Gbit/s x 10/8 = 4.95 Gbit/s •How to calculate HDMI (1080p60) Bandwidth HSYNC: 1920+280 (horizontal blanking pixel No.) VSYNC: 1080+45 (vertical blanking line No.) total pixel per frame = 2200x1125 = 2.47 Mpx/frame Bit rate = 2.75 Mpx/frame x 24 (= 3x8) bit/px x 60 frame/s = 3.56 Gbit/s TMDS: 8 bit -> 10 bit TMDS bit rate = 3.96 Gbit/s x 10/8 = 4.455 Gbit/s •maximum TMDS clock rate of hdmi 1.4 = 340MHz •HDMI Maximum TMDS bandwidth (Gbit/s) 10.2 •3D Over HDMI The 1.4 version of the specification will define common 3D formats and resolutions for HDMI-enabled devices. The specification will standardize the input/output portion of the home 3D system and will specify up to dual-stream 1080p resolution. • Meaning that the hdmi 1.4 can stream 48p 2d blu ray video, or 24p 3d video _____________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________ Section f Code: 24p........................ = 23.976024 FPS.. = 41.7083333 Milliseconds Time between frames NTSC's....................... 29.97003......... = 33.3666666 Milliseconds Time between frames 48p........................ = 47.952048 FPS.. = 20.8541666 Milliseconds Time between frames NTSC's....................... 59.9400599 FPS..... = 16.6833333 Milliseconds Time between frames Code: 1000 / 23.976024 = 41.7083333 1000 / 29.97003 = 33.3666666 1000 / 47.952048 = 20.8541666 1000 / 59.9400599 = 16.6833333 There's 1000 milliseconds in a second. MS / FPS = MS: 1000 ms / FPS = Time between frames "The REAL D system uses triple flash to provide the best motion rendition possible. Use of triple flash puts the refresh rate above the normal flicker fusion threshold for humans, providing smoother motion. The triple flash approach also makes the left and right eye images to appear closer in time, giving significantly less motion induced parallax errors and therefore more comfortable motion rendition." http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/real-d.pdf Flicker fusion threshold "If the frame rate falls below the flicker fusion threshold for the given viewing conditions, flicker will be apparent to the observer, and movements of objects on the film will appear jerky. For the purposes of presenting moving images, the human flicker fusion threshold is usually taken as 16 hertz (Hz)." LINK MS / HZ = MS: 1000 / 16 = 62.5 • What does this mean? Code: 1000ms / fps = ms > 1000ms / 16hz = 62.5ms = fps:ms faster than 62.5ms: No flicker 1000ms / fps = ms < 1000ms / 16hz = 62.5ms = fps:ms slower than 62.5ms: flicker • In Actual practice though, for 3D, the Hz to use is the one Real D uses: "triple flash" (6.94444444ms), as this is standard in digital cinema = 72Hz 2D per eye (13.8888889ms). Code: 1000ms / fps = ms > or = 1000ms / 72hz 1000ms / fps = ms > or = 1000ms / 72hz = 13.8888889ms = fps:ms faster than or equal too 13.8888889ms: if equal too it's decent quality 3D(but can be better). On a 240Hz monitor, 60p video using 2:2 pulldown making it 120p video 1 000ms / 119.88012fps = 8.34166666ms 8.34166666ms is faster than 13.8888889ms so there should be no flicker when using a 240hz monitor and 60p tv in stereoscopic 3D. __________________________________________ Section g: Various monitor refresh rates and video source fps list 3:2 pulldown Code: a = 4 frames = (120th of a second x 20) = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) = 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) = 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 3) )) = 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) = 1 frames from 23.976 fps video source b: 24p 3D = (a x 6) = 2p frames (Left eye = (120th of a second x 60)) + (Right eye = (120th of a second x 60)) = 1Hz = 1 second __________________ 240Hz monitor Code: a: 24p 3D Movie frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) = 1 frame from 23.976 fps video source b: 30p 3D tv frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) = 1 frame from 29.97 fps video source c: 60p 3D tv frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x (pulldown = 2) )) = 1 frame from 59.94 fps video source d: 3D: 24p, 30p, 60p = 2p frames (Left eye = (240th of a second x 120)) + (Right eye = (240th of a second x 120)) = 1Hz = 1 second __________________ 480Hz monitor Code: a: 24p 3D Movie frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 10) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 10) )) = 1 frame from 23.976 fps video source b: 30p 3D tv frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 8) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 8) )) = 1 frame from 29.97 fps video source c: 48p 3D tv frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 5) )) = 1 frame from 47.952 fps video source d: 60p 3D tv frame = 1 progressive frame for each eye (Left eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x (pulldown = 4) )) = 1 frame from 59.94 fps video source e: 3D: 24p, 30p, 48p, 60p = 2p frames (Left eye = (480th of a second x 240)) + (Right eye = (480th of a second x 240)) = 1Hz = 1 second __________________________________________ Section h Code: 144hz displays one frame every................. 6.94444444ms 24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames 6:6pulldown ...............................................41.7083333 / 6.94444444 = 6.00600 ______________________ 120hz displays one frame every................. 8.33333333ms 24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames 5:5 pulldown ...............................................41.7083333 / 8.33333333 = 5.00500 120hz displays one frame every................. 8.33333333ms NTSC's 29.97 video.......................... = 33.3666666Ms Time between frames 4:4 pulldown ...............................................33.3666666 / 8.33333333 = 4.00399999 120hz displays one frame every................. 8.33333333ms NTSC's 59.95 video.......................... = 16.6833333Ms Time between frames 2:2 pulldown ...............................................16.6833333 / 8.33333333 = 2.00200 ______________________ 240hz displays one frame every................. 4.16666667ms 24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames 10:10 pulldown ...............................................41.7083333 / 4.16666667 = 10.01 240hz displays one frame every................. 4.16666667ms NTSC's 29.97 video.......................... = 33.3666666Ms Time between frames 8:8 pulldown ...............................................33.3666666 / 4.16666667 = 8.00799998 240hz displays one frame every................. 4.16666667ms NTSC's 59.95 video.......................... = 16.6833333Ms Time between frames 4:4 pulldown ...............................................16.6833333 / 4.16666667 = 4.00399999 ______________________ 480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms 24p video................................... = 41.7083333Ms Time between frames 20:20 pulldown ...............................................41.7083333 / 2.08333333 = 20.02 480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms NTSC's 29.97 video.......................... = 33.3666666Ms Time between frames 16:16 pulldown ...............................................33.3666666 / 2.08333333 = 16.01600 480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms 48p video................................... = 20.8541666Ms Time between frames 10:10 pulldown ...............................................20.8541666 / 2.08333333 = 10.01 480hz displays one frame every................. 2.08333333ms NTSC's 59.94 video.......................... = 16.6833333Ms Time between frames 8:8 pulldown ...............................................16.6833333 / 2.08333333 = 8.00800 "The refresh rate of the shutter glasses has to be the same as the refresh rate of the display since each shutter has to either open or close every time the 3D display refreshes." - Richard Paul Examples (1000ms/59.94fps=16.68335Ms) = 1Hz = 1 second 59.942=119.88fps (1000ms/119.88fps=8.34167501ms) = 1Hz = 1 second __________________________________________* Section i I have made some stereoscopic test files for use with shutter glasses. I forget which eye each frame belongs too: in each folder is two video files, one for each eye when using shutter glasses. There are different fps video files: 24p, 30p, 48p, 60p. Each video files has no more frames than their name implies, so they are all one second long. They are at 1080p resolution, 2.35 aspect ratio, encoded in mp4. Since I forget which frame belongs to which eye when you put them to work with the shutter glasses it might be wrong, but then just switch the frames the eyes see and it should be ok. With these test files you can see if there is crosstalk and if pulldown helps the 3d be more comfortable. link backup link If I had the test equipment to do the test myself I would, but I don't so I made these test files and posted them here so people who have the field-sequential encoder equipment can encode it and test it, hopefully posting their results here. You will need to loop the video since the video files are only 1 second long. I have made a second set of test files: mpeg-2 this time. The frame rates of the video: 23.976, 29.97, 50 from 48 frames, 59.94 link backup link __________________ When I get tired during work with dvd stuff i think of River Tamm (Summer Glau's character). And the beauty that is Serenity. Last edited by Jeremy Duncan; 30th September 2009 at 21:07.

30th September 2009, 01:36	#7 \| Link
Jeremy Duncan Didée Fan Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 1,079	I have made a second se of test files: mpeg-2, avi. The mpeg-2 files are 23.976fps, and 29.97fps. The avi files are 47.952fps, and 59.94fps. link I wasn't sure if the hw encoder that joins two streams into one field sequential stream needed mpeg-2 or not, so I created these in mpeg2 just in case. setarip_old, I didn't post this thread so I could get these test files encoded. I added these test files as a courtesy so those who can encode it cause they have the hw to do that have a file that they can encode and test with. __________________ When I get tired during work with dvd stuff i think of River Tamm (Summer Glau's character). And the beauty that is Serenity.

30th September 2009, 05:32	#9 \| Link
Jeremy Duncan Didée Fan Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 1,079	setarip_old, I see, ok I have done as you advised. __________________ When I get tired during work with dvd stuff i think of River Tamm (Summer Glau's character). And the beauty that is Serenity.

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30th September 2009, 04:03	#8 \| Link
setarip_old Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16,267	@Jeremy Duncan Please RE-read my post. I said nothing about encoding...