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Old 13th December 2016, 17:11   #41461  |  Link
CruNcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Super-XBR 150 vs NGU Very High

I feel NGU for chroma goes a bit overboard, super-xbr looks quite nice here.



Indeed. I should really evaluate it against NNEDI3 for some of my profiles.





Yeah, I wanted as as accurate as I could too, and huhn said the same thing to me. Like I said you only need it accurate "enough" which means if it only drops a frame every five plus hours and you never play anything over three hours you're never going to see a dropped frame. I haven't seen one since I've changed it and it's been glorious.

I might not have considered 24Hz had huhn not been so adamant about his preference for it.. The motion is just more clear at 24Hz on my plasma and really seems to pop.
It's more enjoyable and now I don't get any dropped frames so I reckon it's pretty much perfect.
How does the result looks compared to this sample

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/193279

and what was the actuall source input here ?
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Old 13th December 2016, 17:47   #41462  |  Link
Buckster
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any ideas to whether a AMD 460 or 1050/1050TI would cope with the new NGU chroma etc upscaling please ?

tried it on my gaming PC (overclocked 290) and am very impressed with the results

the HTPC I am considering does not have a PCI-E power connector, so a 460 or 1050Ti are about best I could fit in if I went that route

cheers
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Old 13th December 2016, 18:19   #41463  |  Link
huhn
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polaris is performing very bad with NGU.
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Old 13th December 2016, 18:28   #41464  |  Link
Damien147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckster View Post
any ideas to whether a AMD 460 or 1050/1050TI would cope with the new NGU chroma etc upscaling please ?

tried it on my gaming PC (overclocked 290) and am very impressed with the results

the HTPC I am considering does not have a PCI-E power connector, so a 460 or 1050Ti are about best I could fit in if I went that route

cheers
With rx 470 I can go till NGU med(maximum hd material) before having dropped frames but I am upscaling to 4k.

Last edited by Damien147; 13th December 2016 at 18:32.
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Old 13th December 2016, 22:40   #41465  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
How does the result looks compared to this sample

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/193279

and what was the actual source input here ?
I could cut a clip, you can find it on the film Kubo and The Two Strings @ ~2:52
Super-xbr 150AR vs NGU very high

Since that Samara clip has been used a bit, I'll show a shot from that too.
Super-xbr 150AR vs NGU very high

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrik G View Post
SuperRes filter för chroma upscaling what does it do in practice?
i can see that with the almost too sharp NGU adding SuperRes makes the image less "messy".
resolution to the image is back again.

after some more testing NGU alone for chroma upscaling is on the limit to being too sharp.
and with a too sharp image resolution is lost.
SuperRes seems to bring down that artificial added sharpness to natural/correct levels.
Though that isn't the case. SuperRes always makes it sharper, SuperRes seems like over kill to me.

From Kubo.
NGU very high vs NGU very high SuperRes 4

From Samara.
NGU very high vs NGU very high SuperRes 4

Last edited by ryrynz; 13th December 2016 at 22:45.
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Old 13th December 2016, 23:21   #41466  |  Link
dansrfe
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For some reason if I leave MPC-HC/madVR paused and the mouse/keyboard inactive long enough then either the gfx card or motherboard makes a long beep sound and reboots. The screen is set to turn off after 3 mins, a couple mins after this I hear the beep and it reboots.

OS: Windows 10 x64
Card: 670 GTX
Driver: 376.09
MPC-HC: x64, 11/7
LAV Filters
Internal Audio Renderer

D3D9 overlay
chroma > NGU-high
luma > NGU-high < Bicubic150 AR
chroma > Bicubic60 AR
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Old 13th December 2016, 23:37   #41467  |  Link
ryrynz
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Won't be anything madshi can fix. You need to troubleshoot just about everything in your setup.
Start with the software.
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Old 13th December 2016, 23:42   #41468  |  Link
Warner306
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@madshi,

Check out this post by a new user using the new image doubling menus. It is revealing what someone with basic knowledge and a good graphics card would do in these menus.

Note the choices he made (set everything on high) and what he didn't understand (downscaling after doubling and supersampling).

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?...009#pid2478009

Maybe downscaling after doubling could be called reduce overshoot of target resolution with image downscaling.

Last edited by Warner306; 13th December 2016 at 23:46.
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Old 14th December 2016, 01:04   #41469  |  Link
huhn
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if they would understand that 2x scaling can created images bigger than the target they would understand downscaling too.

in my eyes a menu that is very easy to understand is impossible and a waste of time.

there is no way to make the concept of YCbCr understandable on a setting page.
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Old 14th December 2016, 01:29   #41470  |  Link
Sean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Don't need perfect 23.976, just close enough, although depending on card you may already be close enough without needing to do this.

My pick with be Nvidia, seems to play a lot nicer with madVR overall plus far better power efficiency. I wouldn't bother with NNEDI3 64 neurons for chroma (I'd personally wouldn't use anything over NNEDI 3 32)
better off with NGU (if you like it sharp) try super-xbr and free up some headroom for luma stuff.
Wow, thanks for this. I'm on a 60" Panasonic ST60 and doing this has me at 23.97651 atm with 0.00200% deviation and 1 frame drop every 1.3~ days (and now sometimes saying 2-3 days). That's pretty close to perfect for a super easy change.

Edit: Double wow. Actually having MadVR read out: "No frame drops/repeats expected" on some files now. Never saw that before.

Last edited by Sean; 14th December 2016 at 01:49.
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Old 14th December 2016, 01:54   #41471  |  Link
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The UI could be easier to understand to everyone if it was logical.

For instance, there should be only 2 main pages under "scaling algorithms", organized like this :

|-image upscaling
| |-luma
| |-chroma
| |-image doubling [high quality]
| |-upscaling refinement
|-image downscaling

or

|-image upscaling
| |-luma (with an image doubling section or individual tab)
| |-chroma (with an image doubling section or individual tab)
| |-upscaling refinement
|-image downscaling

For the image doubling algorithms, only 2 choices for upscaling/downscaling after doubling : "let madVR decide" and "use the luma upscaling/downscaling settings".
New users could select "let madVR decide" for everything (as madshi wants) and advanced users could pick exactly the right algorithm for their taste and configuration.

The new UI with redundant choices and algorithms in drop-down lists is confusing and limited. The old UI just needed some little adjustments in my opinion.
I'm sure that madshi will figure out somehow how to elegantly organize all this.

Edit : Just throwing out some ideas, peace.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 14th December 2016 at 02:14.
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Old 14th December 2016, 02:12   #41472  |  Link
Magik Mark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Wow, thanks for this. I'm on a 60" Panasonic ST60 and doing this has me at 23.97651 atm with 0.00200% deviation and 1 frame drop every 1.3~ days (and now sometimes saying 2-3 days). That's pretty close to perfect for a super easy change.

Edit: Double wow. Actually having MadVR read out: "No frame drops/repeats expected" on some files now. Never saw that before.
Which audio renderer are you using?
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Old 14th December 2016, 02:22   #41473  |  Link
burfadel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
For some reason if I leave MPC-HC/madVR paused and the mouse/keyboard inactive long enough then either the gfx card or motherboard makes a long beep sound and reboots. The screen is set to turn off after 3 mins, a couple mins after this I hear the beep and it reboots.

OS: Windows 10 x64
Card: 670 GTX
Driver: 376.09
MPC-HC: x64, 11/7
LAV Filters
Internal Audio Renderer

D3D9 overlay
chroma > NGU-high
luma > NGU-high < Bicubic150 AR
chroma > Bicubic60 AR
Something similar was happening with AMD with RX 400 series cards, but has been rectified in 16.12.1. It's likely a driver thing.

I did notice that it still seems to render frames when paused, when you pause the player it should pause the rendering and have zero cpu and gpu use from the player.
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Old 14th December 2016, 02:28   #41474  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
The UI could be easier to understand to everyone if it was logical.

For instance, there should be only 2 main pages under "scaling algorithms", organized like this :

|-image upscaling
| |-luma
| |-chroma
| |-image doubling [high quality]
| |-upscaling refinement
|-image downscaling

or

|-image upscaling
| |-luma (with an image doubling section or individual tab)
| |-chroma (with an image doubling section or individual tab)
| |-upscaling refinement
|-image downscaling

For the image doubling algorithms, only 2 choices for upscaling/downscaling after doubling : "let madVR decide" and "use the luma upscaling/downscaling settings".
New users could select "let madVR decide" for everything (as madshi wants) and advanced users could pick exactly the right algorithm for their taste and configuration.

The new UI with redundant choices and algorithms in drop-down lists is confusing and limited. The old UI just needed some little adjustments in my opinion.
I'm sure that madshi will figure out somehow how to elegantly organize all this.

Edit : Just throwing out some ideas, peace.
The resulting menu would be too cluttered, imo. I want to see the choices at a glance.
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Old 14th December 2016, 03:03   #41475  |  Link
Sean
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Originally Posted by Magik Mark View Post
Which audio renderer are you using?
MPC Internal Audio Renderer with Device out to my Onkyo Receiver and Exclusive Mode and Allow Bitstreaming checked.
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Old 14th December 2016, 04:45   #41476  |  Link
khanmein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
For some reason if I leave MPC-HC/madVR paused and the mouse/keyboard inactive long enough then either the gfx card or motherboard makes a long beep sound and reboots. The screen is set to turn off after 3 mins, a couple mins after this I hear the beep and it reboots.

OS: Windows 10 x64
Card: 670 GTX
Driver: 376.09
MPC-HC: x64, 11/7
LAV Filters
Internal Audio Renderer

D3D9 overlay
chroma > NGU-high
luma > NGU-high < Bicubic150 AR
chroma > Bicubic60 AR
omg are u serious NGU-high for your GTX 670??? i suggest set NGU-low or other alternatives.
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Old 14th December 2016, 09:41   #41477  |  Link
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My 3c on the UI (I stayed on the v0.91.1 version for now as I was scared of losing the fastest doubler (s-xbr for me)+control - so haven't seen the new).

There are 2 main use cases:
(1) Upscaling
And then the progression is:
(a) upscaling -> (c) downscaling -> (d) refinements
These a-c could be on tabs going horizontally.

For the doubling, I feel a system where there is a blank array initially and the user can add items in corresponding to doubling instructions would be easier to use.
Each entry: trigger scaling factor, algorithm, (any modifers)
A modifier could be the s-xbr sharpness and bloating, or NNEDI32 neurons or NGU quality level.
So 2 entries would give the user quadrupling.

Final sizing would be similar to the 0.91.1 image upscaling but yeah, it could just use drop downs instead. In fact, this could be a mandatory line on the array - with a final resize trigger, and for that one the user can choose from the much wider array of scalers and options.

For chroma, maybe duplicate that?
The interesting thing here is, should the first chroma item be the initial chroma doubling? And then the final resize - could be anything, making it independent to the luma... don't know if its a good thing.
Another option is to combine the two - if user specifies a luma doubler they have to choose whether to double chroma or not at the same time. But then we'll need a separate initial chroma doubling option.

(2) Downscaling
Just the "final" scalers.

This makes more sense as the downscaling tab in the upscaling section only applies when supersampling, and you can have a different downscaler for when final size is <1.0.
I'm not sure this is where people/madshi want it to go - because it preserves the customisability of the old system and just improves the "flow". If simplification is required then options would have to go.
And I don't mean options as in algos - I mean things like - the ability to tailor that you want NGU-high for the first double and then NGU-low for the quadruple step. For example, a user could specify they want doubling, then input a supersampling ratio (1.0 for no supersampling or 2.0 to go to double the screen res) then just choose 1 option like NGU-med and that is applied for all doubling steps that brings it to (or over) the 2.0 ratio.

Not sure what to do about presets and such - I like the simple scripting system. Maybe a link to an external guide will do rather than baking in presets.

Otherwise, somewhere there could be a Fastest, Balanced and Quality. Or 5 options if preferred. These would just pre-populate the above settings dialogs -> allowing scripts to still run. The tricky bit is, like in my situation, when I have a high frame rate video I'll drop to lower power scaling algorithms, but also change the dithering method etc. Gets tricky. Probably not worth it yet?

Sorry, I should have probably installed the latest ver to take a look. Hope there is something useful in my rambling.
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Old 14th December 2016, 11:22   #41478  |  Link
huhn
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omg are u serious NGU-high for your GTX 670??? i suggest set NGU-low or other alternatives.
what's your problem even a GTX 960 can do FHD -> UHD 23p with NGU high.
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Old 14th December 2016, 12:02   #41479  |  Link
ryrynz
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what's your problem even a GTX 960 can do FHD -> UHD 23p with NGU high.
Maybe he just doesn't like super sharp scalers.. :3
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Old 14th December 2016, 12:47   #41480  |  Link
khanmein
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what's your problem even a GTX 960 can do FHD -> UHD 23p with NGU high.
can't u see got he got issue? majority cards can do it but can it run properly w/o issue is another thing!
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