AOmedia next (AV2) codec

[Jamaika]

Originally Posted by hajj_3

The latest H.267 roadmap (page4) shows that it will be ratified in late 2026/early 2027. As for AV2 The 4 month old video i posted said they are planning to finalise it in 1-2yrs.

However something did come up.
MPEG Immersive Video v.2 2023-2035 - I understand that it will not be renewed.
https://github.com/MPEGGroup/isobmff/tags
File Format (ISOBMFF) v.9 - ... but where to download git to mpeg-5 container.
... Audio Coding for Machines 2025-2027 sounds mysterious too

[ksec]

Originally Posted by hajj_3

AV2 talk on youtube by google engineers from August 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCwjTVJ3F3w

They said that AV2 compression is currently 24-25% better than AV1 for normal content and video games and 30%+ better for screen-content e.g powerpoint presentations, screen sharing etc. They said that they are focusing more on 1080p rather than 4k as most content on social media is 1080p. They said they are focusing on making the amount of die space low for hardware decoders.

Google's goal is a 40% compression improvement over AV1. Apple would be happy with 25-30%. They are aiming for a 2x increase in complexity. They are aiming to finalise AV2 in 1-2yrs. They are considering adding alpha channel support and considering adding up to 16 bit colour depth support. Presumably alpha channel and 16bit are for a future AVIF image format.

I just rewatched the video, I have high doubt on how they will achieve an extra 15% compression with next 12 months and ratified the standard in another 6.

I cant help but thank given the history of AOM constantly over promise and under deliver I am as skeptical as usual. I hope they have a free AV2 hardware decoder ready as well that is energy efficient as they originally promised with AV1.

[olduser217]

Originally Posted by ksec

I just rewatched the video, I have high doubt on how they will achieve an extra 15% compression with next 12 months and ratified the standard in another 6.

I cant help but thank given the history of AOM constantly over promise and under deliver I am as skeptical as usual. I hope they have a free AV2 hardware decoder ready as well that is energy efficient as they originally promised with AV1.

Referring to the history of AV1, I won't be surprised if AV2 standard is completed beyond the initial promised date (unless AOM compromises the compression target).

The free AV2 hardware design may not be much useful for major SoC companies, as it may not suit the existing architecture of their design that includes other standards.

[kurkosdr]

Originally Posted by hajj_3

Here is a list of the remaining european VC-1 patents and their expiry dates:

EP 1,528,812 - 2024-08-11
EP 2,290,991 - 2024-08-11
EP 1,661,387 - 2024-09-02
EP 1,656,793 - 2024-09-03
EP 1,656,794 - 2024-09-03
EP 1,658,726 - 2024-09-03
EP 1,665,761 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,285,113 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,285,114 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,285,115 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,323,398 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,323,399 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,323,406 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,451,161 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,466,894 - 2024-09-03
EP 2,466,895 - 2024-09-03
EP 1,549,064 - 2024-11-08

AV2 can use these in under 12 months if needed. Most european h264 patents expire by March 2024 too for the original spec of h264 that is. All Xvid patents have expired too.

Why would a company like Google, which distributes video from US territory (YouTube) and encoder and decoder software from US territory, care about the fact that the European patents have expired? There is the theoretical possibility of Google moving its operations completely outside the US and changing headquarters to Europe, but realistically, it's not happening.

Same for H.264, until the US patents expire too, the technologies they describe are out of reach for WebM. In fact, since WebM is meant to be royalty-free on a (reasonably) global basis, the patents for every major market have to expire, so that possibly includes Brazil.

The expiration of VC-1 patents for every country except the US and Brazil sometime this year will benefit companies that make Blu-ray players (since they'll only have to pay patent royalties for products sold in the US and Brazil for VC-1), but that's it.

[kurkosdr]

Originally Posted by CodecWar

Its just conducted a study comparing AV1 and AV2 video codecs : https://codecwar.com/compare/av1-vs-av2

If you are still reading this thread, the website doesn't work.

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by olduser217

Referring to the history of AV1, I won't be surprised if AV2 standard is completed beyond the initial promised date (unless AOM compromises the compression target).

My sense from various stakeholders is that the standard will be done this year. I don't think they'd hold it another year to get a few more percent savings.

Among other things, the market needs seem clearer than ever, with VVC licensing not having coalesced into something straightforward yet.

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by kurkosdr

Why would a company like Google, which distributes video from US territory (YouTube) and encoder and decoder software from US territory, care about the fact that the European patents have expired? There is the theoretical possibility of Google moving its operations completely outside the US and changing headquarters to Europe, but realistically, it's not happening.

Google distributes video from data centers all around the world, not just the USA. Any company of that size with that pervasive a reach has a legal locus pretty much everywhere.

Same for H.264, until the US patents expire too, the technologies they describe are out of reach for WebM. In fact, since WebM is meant to be royalty-free on a (reasonably) global basis, the patents for every major market have to expire, so that possibly includes Brazil.

Except for patents held by AOM member companies, who license them for AOM use. Which is a pretty decent slice of codec IP.

[kurkosdr]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

Google distributes video from data centers all around the world, not just the USA. Any company of that size with that pervasive a reach has a legal locus pretty much everywhere.

Yes, but they also distribute video from the US, so unless those US patents expire, they cannot use the technologies those US patents describe in AV2, because then AV2 goes out of reach for their US datacenters.

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

Except for patents held by AOM member companies, who license them for AOM use. Which is a pretty decent slice of codec IP.

It's patent-encumbered but royalty-free, in fact, AOM doesn't have a royalty structure, if you trigger the "defensive termination" clauses you can't pay to license the AOM patents even if you wanted to.

(when I said "the patents for every major market have to expire" above, I obviously meant the ones not held by AOM)

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by kurkosdr

Yes, but they also distribute video from the US, so unless those US patents expire, they cannot use the technologies those US patents describe in AV2, because then AV2 goes out of reach for their US datacenters.

At Google's scale, they absolutely could encode in different countries for distribution in specific countries in order to get around patent stuff. At least for Premium content; YouTube has quite different cost models.

It's patent-encumbered but royalty-free, in fact, AOM doesn't have a royalty structure, if you trigger the "defensive termination" clauses you can't pay to license the AOM patents even if you wanted to.

Correct. AOM provides both a list of "here's patents you can use royalty-free if you're using an AOM codec" and "here's companies that can't sue you for using an AOM codec."

Patent farms and submarine patents are the biggest risks, in my opinion, as they're not ecosystem stakeholders but simply are trying to extract as much revenue as possible irrespective any ecosystem damage.

Thank goodness for Unified Patents! They do great work invalidating low-quality patents and making patent farms have to work harder and face more risk in ecosystem disrupting activites.

[paul97]

please anyone can build avm merge request cdef enhancement or master for windows ten sse4? thanks in advance

[Jamaika]

Not everyone will be happy. For those willing, AVM codec AVX.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/xc74zd

[benwaggoner]

Originally Posted by paul97

please anyone can build avm merge request cdef enhancement or master for windows ten sse4? thanks in advance

What are you trying to do on such ancient hardware? Given the complexity of the in-development AV2 encoder today, I doubt you'd be able to get much encoded before the next update .

[ksec]

Originally Posted by benwaggoner

My sense from various stakeholders is that the standard will be done this year. I don't think they'd hold it another year to get a few more percent savings.

Among other things, the market needs seem clearer than ever, with VVC licensing not having coalesced into something straightforward yet.

Then it is bad. And AOM as usual. I guess I am still too naive and too optimistic even at my age.

If they want it done this year they should at least release a beta version or 0.8 draft version. I think many have said this but I guess it is worth repeating. AOM is anything but Open.

[Z2697]

Originally Posted by ksec

AOM is anything but Open.

What makes you think like this?

[GeoffreyA]

Originally Posted by Z2697

What makes you think like this?

I'm not sure, but doesn't Google have mostly tight fingers over contributions to be codebase?

[modus-ms325c]

Originally Posted by GeoffreyA

I'm not sure, but doesn't Google have mostly tight fingers over contributions to be codebase?

ironically enough (and technically keeping with the "tight fingers" subject), this is kinda how cuavas handles outsiders' contributions to the MAME codebase as of late.
just ask the "bannister forums" folks.