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Old 14th May 2015, 20:58   #101  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
So you are saying a color space conversion from RGB to YCbCr is a necessary part of image doubling? This is what I questioned based on that post.
yes of cause you can't scale luma from RGB.
i wonder if a RGB -> YCbCr conversation is used when chroma and luma is doubled at the same time.
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Old 14th May 2015, 21:27   #102  |  Link
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yes of cause you can't scale luma from RGB.
i wonder if a RGB -> YCbCr conversation is used when chroma and luma is doubled at the same time.
Madshi has confirmed that it is, around when doubling was first added. There is no special case that skips coversion to YCbCr for doubling both luma and chroma with the same number of neurons. it would be odd (rare) to use the same number of neurons for both anyway.

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So you are saying a color space conversion from RGB to YCbCr is a necessary part of image doubling? This is what I questioned based on that post.
Luma is Y and chroma is Cb and Cr.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 14th May 2015 at 21:31.
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Old 14th May 2015, 22:32   #103  |  Link
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Madshi has confirmed that it is, around when doubling was first added. There is no special case that skips coversion to YCbCr for doubling both luma and chroma with the same number of neurons. it would be odd (rare) to use the same number of neurons for both anyway.



Luma is Y and chroma is Cb and Cr.
Ok, I understand. Now that chroma doubling has returned, your chart will still have to be updated, or reverted back to its previous state.
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Old 15th May 2015, 03:31   #104  |  Link
Asmodian
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Updated for v0.88.7

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Ok, I understand. Now that chroma doubling has returned, your chart will still have to be updated, or reverted back to its previous state.
Yes, more modifications needed. I should have listened to huhn.

Thanks for the feedback, I hope this new chart makes sense. Like any other feature, chroma doubling doesn't do anything if it isn't enabled so I felt the explicit path for chroma doubling disabled wasn't helpful.
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Old 16th May 2015, 03:24   #105  |  Link
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Updated for v0.88.7



Yes, more modifications needed. I should have listened to huhn.

Thanks for the feedback, I hope this new chart makes sense. Like any other feature, chroma doubling doesn't do anything if it isn't enabled so I felt the explicit path for chroma doubling disabled wasn't helpful.
Not meaning to be a pest, but have you considered factoring in NEDI image doubling? It appears to double with RGB values because you can only scale both luma and chroma together.
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Old 16th May 2015, 04:10   #106  |  Link
Asmodian
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Not meaning to be a pest, but have you considered factoring in NEDI image doubling? It appears to double with RGB values because you can only scale both luma and chroma together.
I added a note about it to the NEDI description but I don't think I will include it in the diagram. It would simply replace the entire "image doubling" box and I leave out a lot of details in the diagram already. I am also not sure how to add it in a way that makes sense.

If I did include it I suppose I would simply add NEDI image doubling to the black "image upscaling or downscaling" box and call the current "image doubling" box "NNEDI3 image doubling".
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Old 28th May 2015, 01:36   #107  |  Link
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Small updates for 88.10.

still more to do.
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Old 5th June 2015, 01:57   #108  |  Link
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Good write up - thanks.
Any chance of adding in the registry entries - particularly the ones to turn off driver dithering in AMD
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Old 13th June 2015, 10:15   #109  |  Link
Asmodian
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Good write up - thanks.
Any chance of adding in the registry entries - particularly the ones to turn off driver dithering in AMD
I am actually at the character limit already.

I also don't know those AMD registry entries.

Don't you only want to use them when testing if a display is really 10-bit? The drivers dithering any conversion they do seems good.
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Old 13th June 2015, 10:17   #110  |  Link
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Updated for madVR v0.88.11.

I also moved Known Limitations or Complication out of the first post for space. Most of these are somewhat obscure so hopefully not much is lost.

Known Limitations or Complications:
-madVR can't do frame packed 3D
-When using a 3DLUT madVR can generate out of gamut values when displaying WtW unless it is emulating the GPU LUT when using 'enable windowed overlay'.
-Native DXVA decoding has some negative ramifications such as it is impossible to use force film (IVTC) or xy/vsfilter for subtitles.
-madVR cannot handle p010 (10-bit) input from DXVA native.
-madVR IVTC can detect a lot of cadences but can "only" handle some of them correctly. For example the rare cadence 3:2:3:2:2 (25 fps in 30i 60 fields) does not work well.
-madVR currently always switches to 23Hz when having forced film mode on while playing 59i content.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 15th June 2015 at 19:52.
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Old 14th June 2015, 08:38   #111  |  Link
RainyDog
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Updated for madVR v0.88.11.

I also moved Known Limitations or Complication out of the first post for space. Most of these are somewhat obscure so hopefully not much is lost.

Known Limitations or Complications:
-Native DXVA decoding has some negative ramifications such as it is impossible to use force film (IVTC) or xy/vsfilter for subtitles.
-madVR cannot handle p010 (10-bit) from DXVA native.
So we shouldn't use DXVA native in LAV if using madVR in 10bit output mode?

I don't see any issues with it at my end (though I don't have any material that needs IVTC nor do I use xy/vsfilter) and DXVA native seems to have a lower overhead than copyback or Cuvid.
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Old 14th June 2015, 08:48   #112  |  Link
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IMHO, You shouldn't use DXVA native with madVR at all really, using DXVA2-CopyBack is probably a better combination.
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Old 14th June 2015, 09:09   #113  |  Link
Qaq
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So we shouldn't use DXVA native in LAV if using madVR in 10bit output mode?
Nope. Asmodian meant madVR's input, not output. 10 bit from madVR's output works just fine for me with DXVA native.
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IMHO, You shouldn't use DXVA native with madVR at all really, using DXVA2-CopyBack is probably a better combination.
CopyBack shares GPU bus with madVR, right? Sometimes GPU is too busy with madVR to route additional LAV's decoding traffic there.
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Old 14th June 2015, 09:18   #114  |  Link
nevcairiel
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At least if you're using NVIDIA (and maybe on Intel? I forget), madVR will perform a "copy-back" anyway as thats the only way to preserve full chroma quality. So in that case, its better to just use Copy-Back from the get-go and avoid any limitations in madVR.

madVR used to have a trade quality option to disable this copy-back and risk bluring chroma a bit, but I think madshi removed it recently. Not sure if he worked-around the chroma limitation differently without costing much performance, or just decided to not offer the trade option anymore...
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Old 14th June 2015, 09:33   #115  |  Link
Qaq
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I have Intel g1830 on workstation and AMD 7750 on HTPC. After upgrading from 5450 (64 bit bus) to 7750 (128 bit bus) I started with DXVA CB and had no issues untill I tried full 1920x1080 (with no borders) video. It looked stuttering with perfect madVR OSD stats in same time. I switched LAV from DXVA CB to DXVA native and playback turned to smooth again.
You see now why I'm very carefull with DXVA CB. Though CB is still the best solution for havy bitrate telecined videos.

Asmodian, sorry if it looks like off-topic, lets just aware AMD users do not use havy madVR settings with LAV DXVA copy-back )

Last edited by Qaq; 14th June 2015 at 09:44. Reason: off-topic issue fixing
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Old 14th June 2015, 12:07   #116  |  Link
huhn
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I have Intel g1830 on workstation and AMD 7750 on HTPC. After upgrading from 5450 (64 bit bus) to 7750 (128 bit bus) I started with DXVA CB and had no issues untill I tried full 1920x1080 (with no borders) video. It looked stuttering with perfect madVR OSD stats in same time. I switched LAV from DXVA CB to DXVA native and playback turned to smooth again.
You see now why I'm very carefull with DXVA CB. Though CB is still the best solution for havy bitrate telecined videos.

Asmodian, sorry if it looks like off-topic, lets just aware AMD users do not use havy madVR settings with LAV DXVA copy-back )
do you have a sample of this issue? this doesn't make any sense.
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Old 14th June 2015, 13:14   #117  |  Link
Qaq
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No, I don't have that movie anymore. And whats the point anyway? You don't want to test it totally different environment and say "everything is alright", do you?
My point is that DXVA copy-back puts additional load on GPU (GPU bus at least), which BTW is already too busy with madVR. Do you agree or not?
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Old 14th June 2015, 13:33   #118  |  Link
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no i don't agree at all.
the copyback load is nothing at all. we have CB-D now on top of it.

why would madVR stutter with totally fine OSD stats that means it is a clear bug.
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Old 14th June 2015, 13:41   #119  |  Link
Qaq
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Bug or not, it was ages ago. Next, not everyone has SSE4 capable CPU for CB direct. I don't.
Also, it would be nice to see GPU-Z screenshots for DXVA N and DXVA CB.
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Old 14th June 2015, 14:00   #120  |  Link
huhn
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i tried that but with no really findings.

the load difference is so small it's hard to measure. but i don't have a weak GPU currently the weakest i have is a HD 4000 and a HD 4400 both a IGPU with ddr3 speed and not with gddr5 which is worlds faster.
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