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Old 4th September 2011, 02:26   #101  |  Link
nand chan
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Version 0.8 release

This build offers no real shiny new features, but a *lot* of behind the scenes improvements, refactoring and overall changes in the rendering path. The most noticeable improvements should be significantly better depth/range conversion logic and some further speed improvements.

I'm also starting to experiment with smaller 3dluts for lower requirement devices, specifically a 4-bit LUT (16x16x16) can get you surprisingly good results if interpolated, with only some very significant banding issues, far less than initially expected. You will still suffer from aliasing until I can match the gamma curve, unfortunately, but I can't really do that unless the .3dlut format includes it sooner or later (or I do ugly detection hacks like madVR does). It's still surprisingly higher quality than what I expected.

The most notable “issue” right now is that you have to tag .3dluts manually using tag3dlut if you change any of the depth or range settings with changedepth, at least until .3dlut version 2 comes out, which I'm hoping to develop within a reasonable timespace.

Download link for version 0.8: http://www.mediafire.com/?e5mqe0u3dllhuj9

Changes in first post.
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Old 4th September 2011, 18:10   #102  |  Link
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'Do note that to use the generated .3dlut with madVR you need to tag it with BT.709 primaries first using tag3dlut -7'
still nessecaire for version 0,8?
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Old 4th September 2011, 20:08   #103  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alph@ View Post
'Do note that to use the generated .3dlut with madVR you need to tag it with BT.709 primaries first using tag3dlut -7'
still nessecaire for version 0,8?
Yes. I don't plan on adding gamut mapping or color space aware 3dluts until at least version 0.9 or maybe even 0.10, since I'm waiting for ongoing changes in the .3dlut format.
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Old 6th September 2011, 04:59   #104  |  Link
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Version 0.9 released

Instead of waiting for the ever-so-slow authors of the .3dlut format, I've decided to branch it into a new, .3dl2 format. As such, you shouldn't ever need to use tag3dlut when making changes to .3dluts within my programs.

Do note that other programs, eg. madVR, do not support .3dl2 yet - luckily, I've added a conversion utility to convert a .3dl2 into a .3dlut, this is done by running: tag3dlut -i somefile.3dl2 -o somefile.3dlut --legacy

If you want madVR to support .3dl2 natively, go bug madshi.

Download link for version 0.9: http://www.mediafire.com/?fd05yivc5i50dd1

Changes in the first post as usual.
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Old 6th September 2011, 10:28   #105  |  Link
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Ok, silly question. How do you get .3dl2 files. I can only seem to save .3dlut files.

edit: nevermind, I paid more then 2 seconds attention to the first post.

This is coming along nicely btw too.
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Old 6th September 2011, 12:22   #106  |  Link
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so this tool is only a front end to ycms (and other lut creating progs), right? does it have any additional functionality ycms does not have, or the other way round?

are there any bugs which for example are not included when I'd use ycms instead, without this frontend? or would creating a 3dlut file for madvr currently result in exactly the same output file?
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Old 6th September 2011, 13:44   #107  |  Link
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Big news

Coming with version 0.10 I will be adding full support for ICC profiles, using LittleCMS as a back-end for these.

A quick comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/78631

The yCMS .3dlut was generated using the .ti3 file and make3dlut.exe (which uses sRGB primaries).

The LittleCMS .3dlut was generated using the ArgyllCMS-generated .icc profile, attached to the sRGB profile in absolute colorimetric mode.

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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
so this tool is only a front end to ycms (and other lut creating progs), right? does it have any additional functionality ycms does not have, or the other way round?
The only tools that act as a front-end to yCMS are “make3dlut” and the “TI3ParserGUI”.

Everything else is significantly outside the scope of yCMS and is all implemented using my own logic.

yCMS and this toolset sort of complement each other. yCMS is a tool for color space conversions, and this is a tool for .3dlut manipulation - yCMS does none of what this tool does, and this tool aims to do none of what yCMS does (functionally). What it does do, however, is parse .ti3 files and input their primaries into yCMS, which is something that yCMS cannot do natively and what originally gave this project its name.

Right now I'd estimate that the yCMS front-end constitutes about 1%-5% of the total toolset.

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are there any bugs which for example are not included when I'd use ycms instead, without this frontend? or would creating a 3dlut file for madvr currently result in exactly the same output file?
The make3dlut program uses the exact same script as madVR does and should result in bit-identical LUT output. (Except that my script creates .3dl2 by default instead of .3dlut, but those two can be converted losslessly with tag3dlut)

There are zero additional bugs introduced to the yCMS front-end components.

It is possible that there may be /some/ bugs in the utilities I create myself (changedepth, lutscript, and so on) but I generally do a lot of testing before I publish releases to make sure they work as advertised.

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Originally Posted by Audionut View Post
Ok, silly question. How do you get .3dl2 files. I can only seem to save .3dlut files.

edit: nevermind, I paid more then 2 seconds attention to the first post.

This is coming along nicely btw too.
Every tool will automatically generate .3dl2 files (what file name you type doesn't make a difference), except for: tag3dlut --legacy (will generate .3dlut) and TI3ParserGUI.

I have not included .3dl2 support to the TI3ParserGUI whatsoever because it does not use my 3dLut classes, it is simply a front-end for yCMS and nothing more.
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Last edited by nand chan; 6th September 2011 at 14:03.
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Old 6th September 2011, 15:09   #108  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
Big news
The make3dlut program uses the exact same script as madVR does and should result in bit-identical LUT output. (Except that my script creates .3dl2 by default instead of .3dlut, but those two can be converted losslessly with tag3dlut)

There are zero additional bugs introduced to the yCMS front-end components.

It is possible that there may be /some/ bugs in the utilities I create myself (changedepth, lutscript, and so on) but I generally do a lot of testing before I publish releases to make sure they work as advertised.
ok, so I take there wont be any bugs at all then when I just use it to create the same lut file I'd create it using ycms, unless that bug is part of ycms as well.

regarding that converter tag3dlut, is it already a part of your tool? if not would it be possible to add such a conversion of .3dl2 to .3dlut so that we wouldnt have to use more additional tools?

edit: whats littlecms btw?
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Old 6th September 2011, 15:17   #109  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nand chan View Post
Instead of waiting for the ever-so-slow authors of the .3dlut format, I've decided to branch it into a new, .3dl2 format.
Haha. You're just coming at a bad time. yesgrey is taking a break for personal reasons. And I'm taking a madVR break, working on my money-earning job for once. I'd appreciate if we could do a common extended 3dlut format together once yesgrey is back online. Of course it's possible that we'll like your extended format just as it is. But maybe we have suggestions or wishes for changes. But that's going to take some time...

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Old 6th September 2011, 15:21   #110  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Haha. You're just coming at a bad time. yesgrey is in the middle of a move to another country. And I'm taking a madVR break, working on my money-earning job for once. I'd appreciate if we could do a common extended 3dlut format together once yesgrey is back online. Of course it's possible that we'll like your extended format just as it is. But maybe we have suggestions or wishes for changes. But that's going to take some time...
When the time comes, it can be discussed whether or not the changes get merged into the main spec and what further changes to make. Until then, I am keeping the signature strictly separate in order to prevent any compatibility confusions about what supports it and what not.

My current implementation is flexible enough for me to easily change such things, so me implementing the fork already is not a hindrance.

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ok, so I take there wont be any bugs at all then when I just use it to create the same lut file I'd create it using ycms, unless that bug is part of ycms as well.
That is correct.

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regarding that converter tag3dlut, is it already a part of your tool? if not would it be possible to add such a conversion of .3dl2 to .3dlut so that we wouldnt have to use more additional tools?
tag3dlut is included, yes. If you wish to avoid using tag3dlut, then you can simply use the TI3ParserGUI which does not generate .3dl2 files at all - this is the most intuitive and easiest way to generate a .3dlut from .ti3 data and it is recommended if you simply want a “one-click” solution. That was the original purpose of the GUI in the first place, so I could refer to it within my guides.

Quote:
edit: whats littlecms btw?
http://www.littlecms.com/

It's basically an alternative to yCMS in that it calculates transformations by using ICC profiles, which are more accurate as a 3d LUT than the primary / grayscale measurements yCMS uses - which defeat the whole point of using a 3dlut in the first place by dumbing everything down to matrix + transfer function.

In general, it is to be expected for ICC profiles containing 3D LUTs to be more accurate than yCMS. Apart from that, I find that yCMS introduces *more* banding than LittleCMS does, which provides a somewhat smoother gradient (and less gray tone deviation), as shown in the screenshot comparison I linked above (make sure you view it on a color-dumb browser like opera or chrome since firefox/safari will apply their own corrections).
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Old 6th September 2011, 18:43   #111  |  Link
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thank;
A quick comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/78631 ,Why such a big difference.
you already finished version 0,10 ?

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Old 6th September 2011, 19:21   #112  |  Link
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Originally Posted by alph@ View Post
thank;
A quick comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/78631 ,Why such a big difference.
you already finished version 0,10 ?
Different rendering engine, different input.

Version 0.10 is partially done on my PC but I'm not uploading it yet until I have better integration. I also still need to support YCbCr LUTs for ICC profiles, I'm also probably adding support for RGB -> XYZ + ICC integration, and auto-application of calibration data within an .icc profile before I release v0.10.
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Old 7th September 2011, 21:50   #113  |  Link
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I'm going to upload version 0.10 as-is for now. I haven't done any comprehensive testing yet but linkicc.exe should work. Just make sure you're combining the correct ICC profile types. I'm going to be revising the color pipeline a lot now, especially in regards to LutScript, but I don't want those changes to hold up the release of version 0.10, so I'm scheduling those for 0.11 instead.

Download link for v0.10: http://www.mediafire.com/?w4elng942d4g927

I will start posting the changelog in the release posts instead since I've hit the length cap for the first message.

Code:
Version 0.10:
! Added basic support for ICC profiles
+ Color space information is extracted from the ICC profiles and written into the resulting .3dl2
+ New program: linkicc.exe
+ New LutScript function: IccTransform(String, String, Intent), intents: Perceptual, Relative, Saturation or Absolute
+ New LutScript function: !Filetype(Type), possible values: 3DL2 or 3DLUT
+ New LutScript function: !Parameters(String), overrides the parameters data (not recommended for 3DLUT filetype)
+ Added support for LZO compression (CompressionMethod=1). This is used by default.
? Note: Legacy LUTs do not support compression, it will always be disabled when using --legacy mode in tag3dlut
+ Added a --compression (-c) flag to tag3dlut, valid values are: None, LZO
+ New LutScript function: !Compression(Method), possible values: None, LZO
+ LutScript now computes the intermediate gamut after each step (this changes when using eg. IccTransform())
  It is recommended to *NOT* set the !Input_Primaries or !Output_Primaries tags when performing gamut mapping!
  LutScript will auto-detect these correctly for you, eg. when mapping together multiple ICC profiles
~ LutScript now defaults to Limited range when not specified, since it just makes more sense for video content
? Changelog v0.9 was flawed, !Input_Primaries did not accept a string but an /enum/
  (eg. “!Input_Primaries(BT709)” and not “!Input_Primaries("BT709")”)
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Old 7th September 2011, 23:46   #114  |  Link
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How to get a .3ls file? The first post links to the 0.7 release, with no mention of it.

What should the 'input' and 'device' icc profiles be in linkicc?

There are numerous tools to create 3dl2 files. Should one apply each tool and then merge3dlut function?
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Old 8th September 2011, 01:24   #115  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audionut View Post
How to get a .3ls file? The first post links to the 0.7 release, with no mention of it.
.3ls refers to a LutScript file. It is a scripting language I made up myself. I did provide some examples, but I'm going to write up a proper documentation for it soon.

In the meantime, it's now possible (in v0.11) to do monitor /proofing/ (preview what input would look like on /another/ monitor):

Code:
!Filetype(3DLUT)
!Pixel({
    IccTransform("sRGB.icc")     # RGB -> XYZ
    IccTransform("monitor.icm")  # XYZ -> RGB
    IccTransform("monitor.icm")  # RGB -> XYZ
    IccTransform("previewm.icm") # XYZ -> RGB
})
Or you could do it manually by generating two RGB->RGB LUTs and merging them, eg:

linkicc -i sRGB.icc -d monitor.icm -o lut1.3dl2
linkicc -i monitor.icm -d previewm.icm -o lut2.3dl2
merge3dlut -o output.3dl2 lut1.3dl2 lut3.3dl2

Quote:
What should the 'input' and 'device' icc profiles be in linkicc?
“device” should be the ICC profile of your monitor, obtained via ArgyllCMS or whatever.

“input” should be the ICC profile of the input color space, eg. BT.709 for HD video, or sRGB for computer imagery.

Quote:
There are numerous tools to create 3dl2 files. Should one apply each tool and then merge3dlut function?
What is it exactly that you want to do? There are only three basic programs for LUT creation: make3dlut, linkicc and gen3dlut, and each of these effectively cancel eachother out. (You should only use one)

What you want to do is create one 3dlut and then /modify/ it using the tools such as changedepth, swapchan or applycal.

The LutScript facility is sort of presented as an alternative to all of the individual programs. If you need to do a lot of complex processing, you can combine all of these steps into a single LutScript file (.3ls) instead of generating and modifying a .3dl2 a bunch of times.

One should note that LutScript will be /more precise/ because it doesn't round the output down to 16-bit precision between each step, it keeps the 64-bit pipeline until the very end.

(Or you could just use a 64-bit .3dl2, for example using linkicc -b 64. Make3dlut relies on yCMS and therefore has a limit of 32 bit precision)
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Old 8th September 2011, 02:36   #116  |  Link
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Thanks for your response nand chan.

I would like to be able to use the information from Argyll to generate the necessary 3dlut for madvr.
Alot of the new additions to your program are over my head though, and I am getting lost about what process should be used to accomplish that.
I understand I can use make3dlut and then tag3dlut to convert from 3dl2 to 3dlut for madvr, but I would like to use the tools provided to get the best out of it that I can.

I'm guessing that I would be better served by using linkicc.
But I cannot find a BT.709 icc profile. Do I have to roll my own.

I have my display calibrated with SRGB/BT.709 chromaticity coordinates, and a relative tone curve of gamma 1.9, as my display has a gamma of around 1.9, and I'm lead to believe that it's best to calibrate for the display gamma as to minimise banding.

Quote:
So if you are displaying images encoded to the sRGB standard, or displaying video through the calibration, just setting the gamma curve to sRGB or REC 709 (respectively) is probably not what you want!
Quote:
If you're wondering what gamma value you should use, you can run “Report on uncalibrated display device” from the “Tools” menu to measure the approximated overall gamma among other info. Setting the gamma to the reported value can then help to reduce calibration artifacts like banding, because the adjustments needed for the video card's gamma table should not be as strong as if a gamma further away from the display's native response was chosen.
http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/#settings_calibration
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Old 8th September 2011, 02:50   #117  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Audionut View Post
Thanks for your response nand chan.

I would like to be able to use the information from Argyll to generate the necessary 3dlut for madvr.
Alot of the new additions to your program are over my head though, and I am getting lost about what process should be used to accomplish that.
I understand I can use make3dlut and then tag3dlut to convert from 3dl2 to 3dlut for madvr, but I would like to use the tools provided to get the best out of it that I can.

I'm guessing that I would be better served by using linkicc.
But I cannot find a BT.709 icc profile. Do I have to roll my own.
These are the two basic options, yes. Either you read the .ti3 measurements and use yCMS, or you read the ICC profile and use LittleCMS. LittleCMS should have slightly better output.

It seems like you will have to create a BT.709 RGB profile yourself :P

(LittleCMS /does/ provide a function for this, I'll upload a BT.709 profile in a moment)

Quote:
I have my display calibrated with SRGB/BT.709 chromaticity coordinates, and a relative tone curve of gamma 1.9, as my display has a gamma of around 1.9, and I'm lead to believe that it's best to calibrate for the display gamma as to minimise banding.

http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/#settings_calibration
That's fine, both yCMS and LittleCMS will account for the measured output gamma when translating colors.
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Old 8th September 2011, 03:05   #118  |  Link
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I'll upload a BT.709 profile in a moment
Cheers.

One final question.

Should I use gamma processing in madvr. Or does everything get taken care of in the 3dlut creation?
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Old 8th September 2011, 03:33   #119  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Audionut View Post
Cheers.

One final question.

Should I use gamma processing in madvr. Or does everything get taken care of in the 3dlut creation?
Everything gets taken care of in the 3dlut creation.

Here is a BT.709 .icc profile which /should/ work fine.

<link deleted>

Edit: I should mention that I just noticed a bug in tag3dlut. When using --legacy, you have to specify --compression none, as it will (mistakenly) attempt to apply compression to a .3dlut that does not support it. This is fixed in the next version, just notifying.

Edit 2: The profile I uploaded seems to have incorrect primaries information due to a bug in LittleCMS. (You can still fix it manually by tagging the resulting LUT with BT.709 primaries using tag3dlut -7, or just use the fixed profile below)
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Old 8th September 2011, 05:18   #120  |  Link
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Fixed BT.709 profile: <upload pending, LOL MEDIAFIRE IS DOWN>

In the meantime, have a base64 representation of the file:

Code:
AAACYGxjbXMEIAAAbW50clJHQiBYWVogB9sACQAIAAQACQAuYWNzcE1TRlQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
PbWAAEAAAAA0y1sY21zAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALZGVzYwAAAQ
gAAAA2Y3BydAAAAUAAAABOd3RwdAAAAZAAAAAUY2hhZAAAAaQAAAAsclhZWgAAAdAAAAAUYlhZWgAAAeQAAAAUZ1hZWgA
AAfgAAAAUclRSQwAAAgwAAAAQZ1RSQwAAAhwAAAAQYlRSQwAAAiwAAAAQY2hybQAAAjwAAAAkbWx1YwAAAAAAAAABAAAA
DGVuVVMAAAAaAAAAHABSAEcAQgAgAGIAdQBpAGwAdAAtAGkAbgAAAABtbHVjAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAMZW5VUwAAADIAAAAcA
E4AbwAgAGMAbwBwAHkAcgBpAGcAaAB0ACwAIAB1AHMAZQAgAGYAcgBlAGUAbAB5AAAAAFhZWiAAAAAAAADzUgABAAAAAR
a+c2YzMgAAAAAAAPSf///6GQAAEDH///jBAAECiwAABWMAAAMn///6vwABVJdYWVogAAAAAAAB7pYAAQAAAAAV1FhZWiA
AAAAAAAKQDgABAAAADfqpWFlaIAAAAAAAAIQlAAEAAAAAJ0JwYXJhAAAAAAAAAAAAAlmacGFyYQAAAAAAAAAAAAJZmnBh
cmEAAAAAAAAAAAACWZpjaHJtAAAAAAADAAAAAKPsAABU2QAATyYAAJlWAAAlZgAADpg=
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