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Old 31st October 2005, 09:49   #81  |  Link
bugmenotwillyou
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Ok I have a bug report:
Using MPC 6.4.8.5 (and older versions) and disabling the inbuilt "MPEG PS/TS/PVA" source filter to try another TS filter such as HDTVPUmp http://www.dvbportal.de/projects/hdtvpump/ or TSFileSource http://nate.dynalias.net/TSFileSource/TSFileSource.html. When trying to play a TS it errors out with the generic "Cannot render the file" error.
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Old 31st October 2005, 10:26   #82  |  Link
Liisachan
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AacPlus v2 problem exists in official 6484 and 6485, and does not exist in Celtic_Druid's 20050813, so maybe just updating libfaad would fix the problem.

However, some people (including Dave "Novalis" Turner from FSF) say that newer faad is GPL-incompatible.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...dpost&p=314491

This is exactly what I don't really like about MPEG-4. European people might think MPEG-4 is a set of open standards and so automatically related open-souce software can exist, but that's not true, sadly, especially in the area where software patents are allowed, like in Japan and in US.
MPEG-4 itself is nice, I like it and use it often too, but the license can be tricky.
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Old 31st October 2005, 10:38   #83  |  Link
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Liisachan: the incompatibilities with the GPL are not related to software patents. Nero broke GPL compatibility by requiring a copyright attribution in the software itself, while the GPL allows to put such attributions externally from the software (e.g. in a readme file).
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Old 31st October 2005, 11:39   #84  |  Link
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Ah, okay, well, actually, I knew that, and what I did wrong was, I wrote things that are not directly related here. (We do sometimes experience patent-related limitation about MPEG-4, but that would be unrelated here....)

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing that credit in the about box or somewhere (in CD version it is in a floating tooltip). But I guess that's not the problem.


PS.
Is there any possibility that Ahead will change that part? Or did they do that on purpose? At this rate open-source devs might end up in thinking "then we won't use v2, just use real's decoder" and I don't think that is what Ahead wants...

Last edited by Liisachan; 31st October 2005 at 11:48.
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Old 31st October 2005, 12:29   #85  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanV
Liisachan: the incompatibilities with the GPL are not related to software patents. Nero broke GPL compatibility by requiring a copyright attribution in the software itself, while the GPL allows to put such attributions externally from the software (e.g. in a readme file).
nero tought claims that this is compliant to the gpl
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Old 31st October 2005, 13:22   #86  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bond
nero tought claims that this is compliant to the gpl
It isn't, because it is an additional restriction on top of the GPL. While everybody is free to modify the GPL license to their liking, a modified GPL is not the GPL.

Last edited by stephanV; 31st October 2005 at 15:33.
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Old 31st October 2005, 13:43   #87  |  Link
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I think jstembridge and Otto42 gave a good reason why it is not compatible with GPL, and nero acknowledged it, but didn't fix it.

I'm not sure what to make of the comments of Dave "Novalis" Turner (FSF engineer). He says it's a restriction, because it is not required by section 1 (that's only about the source code not about the program itself), and by section 2c (it isn't interactive[*]).

Ok, so it's not required (contrary to what nero claims), and thus a restriction. Restrictions are not allowed (see point 6 of the GPL).

So, there are two reasons why it is incompatible with the GPL.

[*] A library isn't interactive right?

Last edited by Wilbert; 31st October 2005 at 13:46.
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Old 31st October 2005, 18:10   #88  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias
If anyone is curious about what the d3dx9_27.dll is, just check my first post, I've updated it with Gabest's answer. Gabest has been receiving a lot of questions about this dll, so let's make life easier for him
Of course celtics' build from august 13 was using that dll as well (at least one of variants).
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Old 31st October 2005, 18:12   #89  |  Link
Elias
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Since I don't have Nero 7, I have to ask: how well does MPC decode the Nero 7 AAC, and the the Nero 7 mp4 containers?
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Old 31st October 2005, 18:15   #90  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias
Since I don't have Nero 7, I have to ask: how well does MPC decode the Nero 7 AAC, and the the Nero 7 mp4 containers?
the point of a standard, like mpeg-4, is that it doesnt matter what tool produced the stream (eg nero 6 or nero 7 or whatever)
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Old 31st October 2005, 18:16   #91  |  Link
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also FYI: if desktop is set let's say 1024*768, it doesn't mean that MPC renders it at same resolution.

IIRC, the reason why MPC subs rendering is slower is cause MPC uses supersampling, aka renders at higher that target resolution and then scales back to target one. So disabling buffer ahead makes things quite slow. And of course you need to do that in order to see karaoke :P
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Old 31st October 2005, 18:34   #92  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bond
the point of a standard, like mpeg-4, is that it doesnt matter what tool produced the stream (eg nero 6 or nero 7 or whatever)
I know, we've been through this more than once I was more thinking that perhaps Nero had broken some part of the standard somehow (stephanV said that Nero, Apple and Sony have lots of incompatibilites with their mp4 containers, which is true, so that's why I asked).
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Old 31st October 2005, 18:49   #93  |  Link
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noone of these three breaks the standard with their mp4 files, except maybe apple by using own extensions
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Old 31st October 2005, 19:46   #94  |  Link
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Just a small side note, I think some of the sloppily written newer games are dumping the dynamic D3DX DLLs into system32, though IIRC, an application will go for the DLL in its current path first anyways. This new stuff is a royal pain in the ass...perhaps at least a static link option will appear with DirectX 10.

To elaborate on the games part, a lot of Civ4 problems were solved easily by installing the dx9 redist that came off the DVD, and of course, was _27.dll. But I also installed Shattered Union at the same time, and that installer happily dropped that file into my system32. I mentioned to Elias that hopefully apps will only love their version of the DLL, and not any others, for that method _seems_ sane, but when do companies and developers do sane things? :P
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Last edited by movax; 31st October 2005 at 19:49.
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Old 31st October 2005, 20:02   #95  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bond
the point of a standard, like mpeg-4, is that it doesnt matter what tool produced the stream (eg nero 6 or nero 7 or whatever)
But when talking about SBR and PS, there is more to it than just being able to decode the stream. So the question seems valid to me.
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Old 31st October 2005, 21:19   #96  |  Link
Elias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movax
I mentioned to Elias that hopefully apps will only love their version of the DLL, and not any others, for that method _seems_ sane, but when do companies and developers do sane things? :P
What are you talking about? I can't remember any of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bond
noone of these three breaks the standard with their mp4 files, except maybe apple by using own extensions
Sony has added some proprietary stuff in their PSP mp4 containers, no? Nero has non-standard subtitles and chapters in their mp4 files, isn't that so (although, their mp4 containers are okay as far as I know)? Apple, well, yeah, non-standard extensions, but least guilty imho.
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Old 31st October 2005, 23:55   #97  |  Link
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Am I the only one who is experiencing skippy audio playback for AAC in mp4 (Nero Digital LC-AAC VBR, demuxed and reimported to mp4 with MP4Box) with MPC's internal AAC decoder? It's not as smooth as when played in Winamp... But it's working pretty good most of the time, just every now and then the audio playback is like jumping. This is mp4 AAC only, no video.
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Old 1st November 2005, 03:57   #98  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liisachan
one thing I can say for sure is: Let's say your video is 640x480. If you use VSFilter, the resolution of your subs is 640x480 even in the full screen mode. If you use MPC and set the max. texture=desktop, then the resolution of your subs is equal to the desktop resolution. In this case, you are comparing a 640x480 clip to a 1280x1024 (or anything: your desktop size) clip, subtitle-wise. Naturally the second one is much higher-quality AND much more cpu-intensive.

Another thing is, softsubs from VS are always relative-to-video-frame, whereas softsubs in MPC can be both relative-to-video-frame & relative-to-physical-device. VSFilter cannot "touch" a point out of the video frame, since it is in the upstream and it doesn't know what's going on in the downstream. MPC's renderer, on the other hand, can draw things everywhere on your screen. It's co-operating with video renderer. (This can be its weak point too, as we saw in that problem) And practically, this is confusing for absolute positioning, because {\pos(0,0)} is not unique for MPC, which is a major problem indeed, but anyway purely technically, it is clear that MPC's sub renderer is (at least potentially) more powerful and more flexible. And powerful/advanced framework is usually more cpu-eating.

Yeah.... Well, you'll have to disable subpic-buffering in MPC's settings anyway, which makes MPC's subs even more cpu-intensive. Actually much more.
I know.
But it doesn't come from resolution.
I can play 1280x720 video on 800x600 screen resolution on AthlonXP2200+ and about 2-3 frames per second.
If I play the same video using vsfilter I had the full 30 frames per second and 85% CPU load.
I don't think MPC internal subtitle renderer must eat more CPU power than both video and audio decoders together.
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Old 1st November 2005, 04:10   #99  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.F.
I know.
I don't think MPC internal subtitle renderer must eat more CPU power than both video and audio decoders together.
Check how much you allowed to use for subs in mpc first.
If you play it on 800*600, make sure you have only 800*600 enabled. Another thing is, as i said previously, that mpc actually might render at MUCH higher resolution than that. E.g. you allowed to use only 800*600, and the text itself is printed at let's say 1280*1024 resolution and then scaled down to 800*600 and displayed. That's why mpc internal subs are much better than vsfilter in terms of quality.

Also, please take a look at subs file. check which internal resolution is allowed there. (if it's an .ass file, check PlayResX/PlayResY keys). iirc VSFilter will render the subs in this particular resolution only. But mpc might use much more.

So simplistic solution would be to greatly lower allowed rezo for subs in mpc.
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Old 1st November 2005, 04:23   #100  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephanV
But when talking about SBR and PS, there is more to it than just being able to decode the stream. So the question seems valid to me.
its spec compliant to place a sbr aac stream in mp4 without signalling sbr (aka a he-aac decoder has to recognize sbr itself even without the parser telling it that its he-aac)
dunno if this is true for ps too, but i guess so

so the demuxer strictly speaking is not forced to care about he-aac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias
Sony has added some proprietary stuff in their PSP mp4 containers, no?
and? this doesnt make the sony .mp4 files incompliant

whats incompliant is the psp player which requires the proprieatary stuff, but again this doesnt make the files themselves incompliant

Quote:
Nero has non-standard subtitles and chapters in their mp4 files, isn't that so (although, their mp4 containers are okay as far as I know)?
the mp4 standard allows you to place anything you want in the udta atom, which nero uses for storing chapters
also the mp4 standard allows the placement of private streams in mp4, which nero uses for vobsubs

so nero's mp4 files are not incompliant

Quote:
Apple, well, yeah, non-standard extensions, but least guilty imho.
from my point of view apple is the only one breaking the standard by using the .m4v and .m4a extensions for .mp4
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