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Old 21st May 2017, 21:30   #43801  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igvk View Post
Maybe, it's better to choose relative colorimetric then?
Well, I was addressing those artifacts in your test pattern.

I prefer perceptual myself, accuracy is not affected very much and the image looks better. I spent years using an absolute or relative (or luminescence axis) intent but once I got over my accuracy > all fixation I much prefer the image when using perceptual. And you never get clipping artifacts.

If the display's gamut is not very close to the source gamut then perceptual is not a good choice but when your display is already close to the source gamut then perceptual is my preferred choice.

I suggest testing the various intents and picking the one that looks best to you.

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Originally Posted by Oguignant View Post
I would like to understand when I should use it. If I change the refresh to 24hz instead of 23hz I could use it? Who would win?
If you want to use 24Hz with Windows 10 or 8.1 you probably need to use it, otherwise no. I never need to use 24 or 60 Hz so I do not enable it. Nothing wins if you don't need 24 Hz. I understand there are some 24 Hz blurays but I don't think I have any. Personally, enabling smooth motion and not worrying about any of these refresh rate issues is my preferred technique.
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Old 21st May 2017, 21:30   #43802  |  Link
Sideeffect
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So you're saying your display still stays in SDR mode, even when you enable the "HDR and advanced color" switch in display settings? Your display only switches to HDR mode for the exact duration in which madVR is in fullscreen exclusive mode?
When I enable "HDR and advanced color" the display shows HDR enabled and the display enters HDR mode. If I open up a HDR video in windowed mode the colours are washed out.

Once I go to full screen the display shows HDR again like it detects it again and the colours display properly the same as if I would run them from a USB stick on TV.

I guessed this was because HDR is only working in directx 11 mode and even though the windows desktop is sending a HDR enabled signal to the display it still is actually only working in a directx 11 fullscreen aplication.

Some people are reporting that the Microsoft films and tv app is working with HDR in windowed mode but I disagree as I think it looks different more like HDR to SDR conversion and not as good as USB playback or madvr exclusive playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So madVR behaves the same way as HDR games, is that correct?
Yes MadVR behaves the same as Mass effect Andromeda and Shadow Warrior 2. But this is not a good thing as it's a pain to keep changing colour settings. I leave the Display in Nvidia colour 8-bit RGB Full for everything else. Enabling the Microsoft colours sets either RGB limited or 422 you can't really see the setting but either way it looks crap for general PC usage.

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Originally Posted by mrcorbo View Post
Are you using 382.19? For me this is no longer the case on this driver.
No I am still using 382.05 as the Prey hotfix didn't apply to me. What changed with HDR?
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Old 21st May 2017, 21:37   #43803  |  Link
Oguignant
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If you want to use 24Hz with Windows 10 or 8.1 you probably need to use it, otherwise no. I never need to use 24 or 60 Hz so I do not enable it. Nothing wins if you don't need 24 Hz. I understand there are some 24 Hz blurays but I don't think I have any. Personally, enabling smooth motion and not worrying about any of these refresh rate issues is my preferred technique.
Now I understand. I use 23hz (99% of the movies I have are 23,976 fps) and de-judder/de-blur options from the Tv. looks great.
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Old 21st May 2017, 21:39   #43804  |  Link
cyber201
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@madshi

Same issue of imhh11,
GTX1070, Win10 CU, latest nvidia driver, latest madvr, latest Lav Filter.
I use Kodi DSlayer v17.1. TV Samsung KS8000

If I turn on HDR slide in Windows 10, all videos are play in HDR mode.
If I turn off HDR slide in Windows 10, madvr don't turn on my TV into HDR mode. The only way is to turn on HDR slide manually when I need to play an HDR video.

Thanks madshi for your work.
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Old 21st May 2017, 21:42   #43805  |  Link
igvk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Well, I was addressing those artifacts in your test pattern.

I prefer perceptual myself, accuracy is not affected very much and the image looks better. I spent years using an absolute or relative (or luminescence axis) intent but once I got over my accuracy > all fixation I much prefer the image when using perceptual. And you never get clipping artifacts.

If the display's gamut is not very close to the source gamut then perceptual is not a good choice but when your display is already close to the source gamut then perceptual is my preferred choice.

I suggest testing the various intents and picking the one that looks best to you.
Ok, I tried both relative colorimetric and perceptual.
Switched to D3D9 windowed, and both give these saturated color blotches on video.
I have wide gamut display, and certainly need to use 3dlut.
As far as I understand the problem, it's due to the fact that values 236-255 are not expected on input and simply not translated on output.
Is it correct? Or is there a way still to map them to the nearest color value that is in gamut for sRGB?
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Old 21st May 2017, 21:46   #43806  |  Link
Sideeffect
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So you're saying your display still stays in SDR mode, even when you enable the "HDR and advanced color" switch in display settings? Your display only switches to HDR mode for the exact duration in which madVR is in fullscreen exclusive mode?
When I enable "HDR and advanced color" the display shows HDR enabled and the display enters HDR mode. If I open up a HDR video in windowed mode the colours are washed out.

Once I go to full screen the display shows HDR again like it detects it again and the colours display properly the same as if I would run them from a USB stick on TV.

I guessed this was because HDR is only working in directx 11 mode and even though the windows desktop is sending a HDR enabled signal to the display it still is actually only working in a directx 11 fullscreen aplication.

Some people are reporting that the Microsoft films and tv app is working with HDR in windowed mode but I disagree as I think it looks different more like HDR to SDR conversion and not as good as USB playback or madvr exclusive playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So madVR behaves the same way as HDR games, is that correct?
Yes MadVR behaves the same as Mass effect Andromeda and Shadow Warrior 2. But this is not a good thing as it's a pain to keep changing colour settings. I leave the Display in Nvidia colour 8-bit RGB Full for everything else. Enabling the Microsoft colours sets either RGB limited or 422 you can't really see the setting but either way it looks crap for general PC usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcorbo View Post
Are you using 382.19? For me this is no longer the case on this driver.
No I am still using 382.05 as the Prey hotfix didn't apply to me. What changed with HDR?
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Old 21st May 2017, 22:22   #43807  |  Link
Asmodian
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If it is simply that you have full range input then the source needs to say it is full range. If it doesn't you can use Crtl-Alt-Shift-I to toggle through the input levels, PC is full range where 255 is mapped to 100% instead of 235. With limited range content you cannot map 236-255 to in-gamut colors; they are, by definition, out of gamut.

Sorry, I am confused as to what you want and why you are looking at this test image.

Please continue to ask calibration questions in the Display Calibration thread so we don't clog up madshi's thread with calibration.
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Old 21st May 2017, 22:43   #43808  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
If it is simply that you have full range input then the source needs to say it is full range. If it doesn't you can use Crtl-Alt-Shift-I to toggle through the input levels, PC is full range where 255 is mapped to 100% instead of 235. With limited range content you cannot map 236-255 to in-gamut colors; they are, by definition, out of gamut
Ok, possibly the source is wrong and it is full range, but not providing this.
Strange that in this case madVR doesn't clip these values, and it leads to wrong colors.
Seems that I need to manually switch this source encoding for each video in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Sorry, I am confused as to what you want and why you are looking at this test image.
This is a screenshot from video, not an image actually. There are many examples of such wrong colors in several videos.

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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Please continue to ask calibration questions in the Display Calibration thread so we don't clog up madshi's thread with calibration.
Didn't think that it was display calibration related question, just what madVR does with 3dlut mappings.
But ok, possibly it's bordering with calibration much.

P.S. Forgot to ask: does madVR support 3D LUT for full range content?
Because there is no way to select input or output encoding "RGB 0-255" when creating 3dlut for madVR.

Last edited by igvk; 21st May 2017 at 22:59.
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Old 21st May 2017, 22:49   #43809  |  Link
Damien147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Questions:


3) If HDR switch does NOT work for you: Which GPU are you using? Does the OS show the "HDR and Advanced color" switch to you? Have you tried with the switch on and off? Does your display switch into HDR with the switch on or off? Or neither?

RX470.Yes,it shows the switch.I tried it on and off but it gets disabled all the time.The only time I've seen it enabled was with the installation of new drivers but it didn't last long.With previous madvr version I've seen it getting enabled at random times when opening a video(non hdr) but if I remember well it gets disabled when going fullscreen.Haven't tested a lot with v0.91.10 but the behavior seems like the past.Washed out image and hdr stays disabled.


Also did you change anything else?I think I found an occasion that I have dropped frames when in the past things seemed more stable.Not completely sure though.
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Old 21st May 2017, 23:05   #43810  |  Link
hannes69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That sounds good. That's not the case for my Kaby Lake GPU, though. Maybe it's a driver issue, once more?
Seems like that, yes. Bad driver implementations and OS quirks like Creators Update may keep us all busy for the next decades
I recently made a clean OS install directly with Win 10 Creators Update included and didn´t have any major problems though like others reported... Some small things like a taskbar that didn´t like to disappear in FSE and things like that but nothing too critical.

BTW: Recently I had several use cases for 24.000 Hz. I often watch movies with Amazon Video and there are several with this frame rate (some months/years ago they were mainly 23.976fps, in the meantime the number of 24.000fps ones is growing). And of course I watch them with madVR (Kodi with MPC HC as external player). So the 23.976fps vs. 24.000fps topic has indeed some relevance (when using corresponding refresh rates and not smoothmotion of course).
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Old 21st May 2017, 23:42   #43811  |  Link
kolak
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If I have h265 files with HDR info in headers (added with --master-display option) will these be fully passed over HDMI?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 00:25   #43812  |  Link
mrcorbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Wow, that's weird. Totally different behaviour to what Sideeffect and oldpainlesskodi are reporting!

You're saying your display immediately switches into HDR mode when you flip the "use HDR and Advanced color" display settings switch on, even if no video is playing and no game is running?
Weird indeed! And that's correct, yes. And when the HDR switch is activated both madVR in windowed mode and the Win 10 Movies & TV app render the video correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Strange. With these settings, how does fullscreen exclusive mode look?
With the HDR slider on or off videos in FSE look exactly the same and also look identical to what I get when I choose EVR as the renderer in MPC-HC.

Just to be sure I am being totally clear. In windowed mode with the Win 10 API HDR metadata is always being passed whether HDR mode is activated via the switch or not, but is only displayed correctly when the HDR switch is active. In FSE mode HDR metadata is never being passed regardless of the state of the HDR switch and, additionally, when FSE mode is activated it will take me out of HDR mode on my TV if it has been activated by the switch. As soon as I leave fullscreen, if HDR had been activated by the switch my TV will return to HDR mode and HDR metadata is passed again.

Last edited by mrcorbo; 22nd May 2017 at 00:44.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 00:37   #43813  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by igvk View Post
P.S. Forgot to ask: does madVR support 3D LUT for full range content?
Because there is no way to select input or output encoding "RGB 0-255" when creating 3dlut for madVR.
it doesn't matter for the 3D LUT if the source is limited or full range.
it will always get a limited range signal as an input and outputs this in limited range.

changing the output/input encoding to something other than 16-235 will results in wrong colors.

if a file is full range but not flagged for full range it is broken!
and you should contact the creator to fix it because he made a huge mistake here.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 00:51   #43814  |  Link
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it doesn't matter for the 3D LUT if the source is limited or full range.
it will always get a limited range signal as an input and outputs this in limited range.

changing the output/input encoding to something other than 16-235 will results in wrong colors.
As far as I understand this, it's madVR feature, because it more tuned to movie playback, and these have limited range?

Won't it be better to just clip input BtB and WtW values to 16 and 235 respectively?

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if a file is full range but not flagged for full range it is broken!
and you should contact the creator to fix it because he made a huge mistake here.
In my example it's video from Youtube, but I saw other video files with this problem.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:08   #43815  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by igvk View Post
As far as I understand this, it's madVR feature, because it more tuned to movie playback, and these have limited range?

Won't it be better to just clip input BtB and WtW values to 16 and 235 respectively?
if this would be done it would be impossible to watch properly flagged full range content.

and i don't know why you think madVR more tuned for limited range. madVR is perfectly made for full range content
unlike other renderer that treat everything as limited range madVR is aware of full range videos and handles them correctly.

Quote:
In my example it's video from Youtube, but I saw other video files with this problem.
that makes it easier to contact the creator. doesn't it?

Last edited by huhn; 22nd May 2017 at 01:40.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:19   #43816  |  Link
igvk
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if this would be done it would be impossible to watch properly flagged full range content.

and i don't know why you think madVR more tuned for limited range. madVR is perfectly made for full range content
unlike other renderer that treat everything as limited range madVR is aware of full range videos and handles them correctly.
I mean - if the video is detected as limited range (even erroneously), why not clip WtW values?
And if it's full range - use range 0-255 and not clip.
The current implementation leaves colors of WtW wrong, and it has no sense to me.

As for contacting the author - is there a good and technical way to make sure that the video uses full range, even when tagged as limited?
Except for guessing looking at miscoloration?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:39   #43817  |  Link
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some videos have some informations in the WTWor BTB parts so no there is no easy technical way to check this.
i'm mean you have to check ALL frames in a video to be 100% sure.
it could even switch all the time.

maybe the creator wants it too look terrible clipped on top of it.

this video here is full range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzJDimvPW1Y but YT think it is limited range so blacks are clipped. even with a correct flag you should not upload full range to YT.

are you even sure full range is the source of your issues?

i talked about BTB WTW handling of 3D LUT before and well it is still as it is: http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=424
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Old 22nd May 2017, 02:04   #43818  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I think I posted everything relevant in that post. I ran the tests on a i7-6700 at 4.7 GHz. Those are the individual times for NGU, not the total average rendering time. If you put an empty file called "ShowRenderSteps" in the madVR directory it will show you the rendering times for each filter individually in the OSD.
I just tried it. My times are similar to yours. NGU Sharp very high: 14.1 ms
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Last edited by Oguignant; 22nd May 2017 at 02:06.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:13   #43819  |  Link
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Re HDR....further digging...

With my GTX 1080 using driver 378.92, pass-through with nvidia api or win 10 api does nothing in dx 11 FSE. If using windowed dx11, nvidia api does nothing, but, if i select win10 api in non-fse dx11, it passes through the metadata, but does not switch the display into hdr mode.

Can anyone else confirm?

K

Update - tried the above on drivers past 378.92, and it doesn't work. From reading the nvidia forums, post this driver, nvidia handed over an important part of the render chain to the OS. So, to confirm, using nvidia driver 378.92, madvr set to hdr pass-through using win10 api and madvr set to non-fse dx11 passes through the metadata perfectly (no washed out colours and perfect blacks), but, the 8bit output is imposed, and the display doesnt switch to hdr mode (although it looks like hdr mode).

Madshi - hope this helps.

Update 2 -hmmmm. Even though madvr is in fullscreen window 8 bit mode, my receiver reports a 36bit (12x3) ouput with 10bit and 8bit 23.976 files (nv control panel set to 12bit for 23,24,25 and 30hz full range through the chain, apart from Lav set as untouched).

Last edited by oldpainlesskodi; 22nd May 2017 at 10:51. Reason: update
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Old 22nd May 2017, 09:04   #43820  |  Link
igvk
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
some videos have some informations in the WTWor BTB parts so no there is no easy technical way to check this.
i'm mean you have to check ALL frames in a video to be 100% sure.
it could even switch all the time.
Provided there is a tool to check the color values of all the frames. Or should I convert every frame to image and check manually every pixel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
maybe the creator wants it too look terrible clipped on top of it.
The video looks ok when played without applying 3D LUT, just more saturated on the wide gamut monitor.
Also, there are no artifacts with 3D LUT when I switch input encoding to full range, it's just more washed out.

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this video here is full range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzJDimvPW1Y but YT think it is limited range so blacks are clipped. even with a correct flag you should not upload full range to YT.

are you even sure full range is the source of your issues?
That was actually a question from the very beginning.
And the best guess I could come to.

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i talked about BTB WTW handling of 3D LUT before and well it is still as it is: http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=424
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