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Old 10th September 2010, 09:19   #81  |  Link
Henrikx
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Humor..... three minutes for all

The Doom9 Family.....
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Old 10th September 2010, 12:25   #82  |  Link
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@Henrikx: though I'm forced to develop web apps in .NET in my work I must admit that the spot is just BRILLIANT. LOL
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Old 10th September 2010, 14:57   #83  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sharktooth View Post
indeed. if neuron2 tried to contact 3 different mods and had no answer then he has much less responsibility in what happened.
I disagree, we should always be fully responsible for our own actions and not try to put the blame on others. He should have not acted if he was knowingly breaking the rules. Patients is a virtue, there was no rush to act. Nobody was going to die if he waited for a mod to help out. Do you even know how long he waited before he acted? Let Doom9 figure it all out before you to try to absolve anyone of any responsiblity. Something went wrong here and that is clear. Both DS and N2 are good people, but both deserve to be held accountable for their own actions and not excused because he is a moderator or x264 developer. We cannot see what DS supposedly did or verify the severity of the situation... Only Doom9 can, so we need to stop trying to pass the buck and have faith Doom9 knows what is best for his board.
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Old 10th September 2010, 15:11   #84  |  Link
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that's not the point. i meant, if there were more mods available the situation would have been different.
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Old 10th September 2010, 15:17   #85  |  Link
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[JOKING]Now, this sounds to me like bribery in public! Are you recruiting your counter-DS army or what?[/JOKING]
While a cynic may see it as blatant bribery I prefer to see it as a magnanimous gesture. Send me your email address to get your free license and priority access to my support.
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Old 10th September 2010, 15:22   #86  |  Link
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Both DS and N2 are good people, but both deserve to be held accountable for their own actions
Gee, I must have missed the posts where you cross-examine DS to hold him accountable for his actions. I'd be grateful if you could point me to them. Thank you.
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Old 10th September 2010, 15:28   #87  |  Link
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Humor..... three minutes for all
Very funny indeed.

But borderline rule 4 violation at the end. I'll overlook it...this time!
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Old 10th September 2010, 16:13   #88  |  Link
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@Henrikx

Being the first releasing a .NET application here wasn't that funny, endless arguments, IIRC using .NET or MKV you had to be careful with Koepi, a moderator I'm sure many remember.
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Old 10th September 2010, 16:38   #89  |  Link
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Koepi, a moderator I'm sure many remember.
Yes, indeed, a very fine chap. He helped me a lot when I was a video noob. (Also, need to acknowledge manono's kind mentoring. And sh0dan, the list goes on...) I miss not seeing Koepi around here.
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Old 10th September 2010, 18:07   #90  |  Link
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Gee, I must have missed the posts where you cross-examine DS to hold him accountable for his actions. I'd be grateful if you could point me to them. Thank you.
My understanding is you already disciplined him for doing what ever it was that he did, so why should I cross examine him? You already held him accountable for breaking a rule... I believe in the Double jeopardy principle. DS has already been tried and found quilty by you, if he wants his sentence changed or what ever it is Doom9 that needs to cross examine him. I am pretty sure I have never cross examined you, I only asked you to elaborate if you felt I was some how incorrect in my thinking.

BTW it is not up to me to hold anyone accountable for their actions, but for doom9 and the people he put in charge (In fact I believe it was you who said something very similar to that in another post)

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that's not the point. i meant, if there were more mods available the situation would have been different.
Hopefully Doom9's changes will prevent such situations from happening again. I always recommend this board to people who are trying to learn more about video editing and compression, so I really don't want to see this resource disappear.

Last edited by HJRodrigo; 10th September 2010 at 18:24. Reason: Reponding to Sharktooth
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Old 10th September 2010, 18:16   #91  |  Link
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The actions I'd like to see DS held accountable for are the vile attacks emanating from his forum. Do they not bother you, or do you think that is all just fine and dandy?

Quote:
why should I cross examine him?
Why then do you cross examine me?

With all due respects, just go away back to your utopia Doom10.

BTW, you haven't claimed your free license. I'll hold the offer open for you, don't worry.

Last edited by Guest; 10th September 2010 at 18:19.
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Old 10th September 2010, 18:43   #92  |  Link
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Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
The actions I'd like to see DS held accountable for are the vile attacks emanating from his forum. Do they not bother you, or do you think that is all just fine and dandy?

Why then do you cross examine me?

With all due respects, just go away back to your utopia Doom10.

BTW, you haven't claimed your free license. I'll hold the offer open for you, don't worry.
I don't post on those forums nor have I ever joined them. I think you have me confused with kypec or Astrophizz. You offered them a free license and I believe one of them wanted you to specificly show proof about your actions. As I wrote previously, if my memory is correct I have never cross examined you. I only asked you to clarify a claim you made about a statement of mine.

If people are making vile attacks about you on DS' Forums, then ask DS to hold them accountable. Surely you don't blame DS for what is comming out of the mouths of others. It would be like me blaming you for anything bad people are saying about DS. BTW I think anyone speaky vilely ( <---is that even a word? LOL) about anyone else is wrong. I do not support such actions.

Last edited by HJRodrigo; 10th September 2010 at 18:48.
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Old 10th September 2010, 18:53   #93  |  Link
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As I wrote previously, if my memory is correct I have never cross examined you.
Your memory is failing you. Review your own posts. You can start with this one:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...42#post1433142

It's not your place to cross-examine me here on this (especially since you are still a Doom9 noob).

Quote:
If people are making vile attacks about you on DS' Forums, then ask DS to hold them accountable.
I already have. And what is this "if" equivocation?
Quote:
Surely you don't blame DS for what is comming out of the mouths of others.
Of course I do. He owns and manages the forum. He encourages, condones, and rewards that behavior. Anyway, he is the prime offender. Go read up over there. One example: at Doom10 someone called another Doom10 member for intentionally posting provocative insults over here. DS replied something like this: "He's just trolling. That's what he does." The entire Doom10 forum is a slap in the face to Doom9, our respected leader who gives us so much...for nothing in return!

Let's be clear... I'm looking for a win-win resolution to this affair. DS is looking for a win-lose resolution. He has pushed all his chips in. Let them fall where they may.

Last edited by Guest; 10th September 2010 at 19:03.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:20   #94  |  Link
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Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
Your memory is failing you. Review your own posts. You can start with this one:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...42#post1433142

It's not your place to cross-examine me here on this (especially since you are still a Doom9 noob).
That was not a cross examination . You made a claim about a statement I made and I asked you to expand on how I was I making a "total misrepresentation of the facts" and "creating new controversies". If I was to have cross examined you about your actions. I whould have asked you why did you ban or suspend DS, if and when did you issue him a warning, did you give him time to respond to the warning, if and who did you consult before carrying out your actions, and so on. BTW I am not a "noob". I have been editing and compressing video's for years and have been visiting these forums for years. I only recently joined like three years ago cause I felt I had some news to share with the "community". If you are hung up on things like post count and titles then you need to grow up. This is just an internet forum. You are not some god or king that us peons should fear. Seriously what kind of attitude is that to have that allows you to imply how dare the lowly me/noob have the nerve to ask you a question .

Quote:
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I already have. And what is this "if" equivocation?
Of course I do. He owns and manages the forum. He encourages, condones, and rewards that behavior. Anyway, he is the prime offender. Go read up over there.
Then you feel that Doom9 encouraged, condoned, and rewarded the behaviors on this forum that led to problems. I was an admin to my own organizations forum for years and it was quite a hassle (This was part of my REAL job and not some hobby). I had to deal with a bad moderator (This was a REAL job as well and not some volunteer position like it is for you) and bad forum members before, and all I can say is I hope nobody blamed me for those issues. Doom9 is the forum I visit for video editing and compression and I have no desire to visit another one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
Let's be clear... I'm looking for a win-win resolution to this affair. DS is looking for a win-lose resolution. He has pushed all his chips in. Let them fall where they may.
You guys need to hook up with Sharktooth and learn to settle things like grown men.

Last edited by HJRodrigo; 10th September 2010 at 20:17.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:23   #95  |  Link
Bi11
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Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
The entire Doom10 forum is a slap in the face to Doom9, our respected leader who gives us so much...for nothing in return!
*Ha ha ha* LOL
You want some cheese to go with that wine?
All hail Doom9!

I'm just trolling. That's what I do.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:27   #96  |  Link
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Then you feel that Doom9 encouraged, condoned, and rewarded the behaviors on this forum that led to problems.
No, I don't feel that.

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You guys need to hook up with Sharktooth and learn to settle things like grown men.
Send Sharktooth a PM and ask him who is willing to hook up with him on this and who is not.

I'm done with you. Bye.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:29   #97  |  Link
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All hail Doom9!
Another loser noob chimes in to throw more oil on troubled waters.

Just a little heads-up. I have to go run some errands so I may not be able to immediately defend myself from any attacks that accumulate in my absence. Don't worry, I'll be back later to address them, my immediate non-response should not be taken as acquiescence. Thank you for your understanding.

Last edited by Guest; 10th September 2010 at 19:34.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:51   #98  |  Link
HJRodrigo
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Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
Another loser noob chimes in to throw more oil on troubled waters.
How mature. I will let Doom9 worry about you. I love these forums and don't wish for my experience to be soured.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:53   #99  |  Link
Bi11
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Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
Another loser noob chimes in to throw more oil on troubled waters.
I'll take up that matter in court.
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Old 10th September 2010, 19:53   #100  |  Link
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Community Court is now in session

If anyone read my ramblings, they would have seen at the end:
Quote:
Other established members can continue that discussion, which should indicate to the moderator that the collective is challenging his decision. The moderator should attempt to prove his correctness at the satisfaction of the collective (probably not feasible).
The Established member rule is "probably not feasible" because this forum's rules (17,3,11 to be specific) stifle constructive free speech.

I mentioned "the graveyard" in my ramblings; that should now be called "Court".

What follows is a culmination of my previous ideas knitted together to form an elegant solution to the moderator-member relationship problems.


Court definition

The Court (hereafter called 'court') is the sub-forum where members or moderators who break forum rules can have their hearing to defend themselves.
At the very least, these court cases are viewable by all members (not general public) and will serve as proof that the forum acknowledges these disputes between moderators and members.

Court rules

Court proceedings still abide by all forum rules except those that hinder constructive free speech (i.e. rules 17,3,11).

Only super moderators/moderators can create threads/cases and only the administrator or a super moderator can close a case (giving a ruling if necessary).
All super moderators are assumed to be objective/neutral, hence they are responsible for upholding court rules.

Moderators are treated as police officers rather than judges. Police do their best to enforce the law, but they are only human and so sometimes make mistakes. Still, they are not above the law.

Moderators also act as prosecutors when they charge/accuse a member of breaking a rule. Members act as prosecutors when they report/accuse a moderator of breaking a rule.

The moderator in question cannot moderate the case, though related follow-up posts in the main forum should be brought into the case by the moderator (acting as prosecutor), or by super moderators if necessary. If members are prosecuting a moderator then related follow-up posts in the main forum should be brought into the case by other moderators or super moderators, and only established members of those posts be allowed to participate in the case proceedings.

Violating a court rule results in a strike, which can be appealed only to the administrator through the appropriate channels.
A rule 4 violation in court results in immediate suspension, thus forfeiting the right to participate in the case proceedings.

It is of utmost importance to preserve the integrity of the court by ensuring all parties respect each other at all times.


Court usage

If a member breaks a forum rule then the member's post is moved into a new court case with case/thread title:
moderator name v. member name : (rule numbers violated) Title of original thread

It works the other way around as well. Members can report, (citing rule numbers violated) to a super moderator, a moderator's posts that are in violation of the moderator/forum rules. The super moderator should then create a case in court (with title member name v. moderator name ...) containing the moderator's posts and the reports made by those members.
If many members report a moderator's post (or related posts) to super moderators then those super moderators can allow only some of those members (established members) to participate in the case to prosecute the moderator.

If a member's violating post is the first post of a thread, then the whole thread should be thrown in court, else the single post is thrown. In place of the original post, there should only be a link to the post in court (displayed as moderator name v. member name : (rule numbers violated) (or member name v. moderator name : (rule numbers violated) if the moderator's post is being challenged)). Violating posts (and follow-on discussions) after the first violating post should also be thrown into the same court case as long as the off-topic issue is the same.

Members whose posts were thrown into a case are entitled to participate in the case proceedings.
The owner of the first post (i.e. the accused) is entitled to a "lawyer"/member as an additional representative at the owner's request, but only if the lawyer voluntarily wants/requests to participate in the proceedings.

Other members may request participation in the proceedings, but they will only be allowed to do so at the discretion of any available super moderator. These "invited" members are essentially those whom the super moderator considers to be established members.

The rest of the proceedings is intended for all parties to reach an agreement by debating the issue frankly without rules 17,3,11 in the way.

The debate could be, essentially, one party tries to prove the correctness of their statements and the other party verifies the proof until satisfied.
The debate could also be completely different. Such as, moderator claims rule 3 violation, member counter-claims mod-rule 8 plus rules 3,11 violations.

Still, the goal is for the accused to have a forum (a thread actually) to (constructively) speak freely in order to show they were wrongfully accused.

Court case outcomes

If the accused forfeits the right to participate in the hearing, within a reasonable amount of time or within a reasonable number of their new forum posts, whichever comes first, then the moderator's actions (or member's report) stand and the case against that member (or moderator) is resolved.

If there is mutual agreement, either by the accused explicitly accepting the moderator's actions (or member's report) or by the moderator (or member) explicitly agreeing to undo those actions unconditionally, then the case against that member (or moderator) is resolved.

If no agreement can be reached then the moderator's actions stand until the administrator or a super moderator gives a ruling and closes the case.

Once a case is resolved and closed, a super moderator performs any actions necessary to rectify the matter.
All rulings can be appealed only to the administrator, who will then give a final ruling on the matter.


Prevention better than court

In the real world, police officers can inquire (interrogate?) and warn individuals without charging them, so there is no reason to go to court because no action was taken against the individual (other than harassment?).

How can moderators do the same?
If a warning is given in the thread and no follow-up discussion ensues then there is no problem.
If, however, a follow-up discussion ensues or the moderator makes an inquiry (which of course results in a discussion) then perhaps that discussion should be taken out of the main forum and placed into it's own thread in a sub-forum called "Inquires".
The Inquires sub-forum could have similar rules as the court rules (relaxed rules 17,3,11, etc.) but no immediate suspension for rule 4 violation. However, any rules broken there must be enforced and the issue taken to court.


Comments

Note that under this contrived System of Justice the administrator is still head judge and head law-maker, which is a recipe for dictatorship (that may be appropriate for dystopian societies, which this community is not imho). So good faith is assumed in the administrator.

Details of this contrived justice system require a lot more thought to ideally (though may not be possible) ensure all possibilities are covered and no contradictions exists.

This may all seem overly complicated, but essentially you could have:
Administrator (head judge, head law-maker) -> Super Moderators (jugdes; these are your true employees in the workplace analogy, so choose them wisely; also, judges must not do police/prosecutor work (mod-rule 8)) -> Moderators (police) ~ community members (citizens)

The overall result being a much higher level of transparency and accountability, in relation to administration of justice, than currently exists on this forum.
The ultimate goal being maximization of transparency and accountability within constraints imposed by rules of this forum.


Last edited by Bi11; 14th September 2010 at 20:20. Reason: moderator==police==prosecutor; upholding court rules; case outcomes; member reports==prosecute
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